Bradley Manning verdict.

[Rumred]

Im saying your beliefs are less important to you than your comfort zone. Change cannot be forced from the outside, it must be fermented from within.

Exactly what if the civil rights leaders had said "Eh you know i would do something but man it could bring me some discomfort and maybe even jail time" We would still have be in the era of Jim Crow.

[chrisisvacant]

Exactly what if the civil rights leaders had said "Eh you know i would do something but man it could bring me some discomfort and maybe even jail time" We would still have be in the era of Jim Crow.

I hope you are being sarcastic. Civil Rights leaders are rarely politicians.

[Rumred]

US troops aren't fighting for freedom or fighting terrorism. They are a tool for projecting state-corporate power, and nothing more. Do you honestly think that obliterating two countries, and bombing/droning scores of innocents does anything to "fight terrorism"? How about initiating economic sanctions which resulted in the death of 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of 5, during the 90s?

I've said these things to a soldiers face and I'll say it again. The reaction is always interesting because even though they claim to be "fighting for my freedoms", they sure as hell don't like criticism. I guess I can say anything I want as long as it doesn't hurt their feelings. Oh, the hypocrisy.

First off i really doubt you said it to anyones face since you are a internet hero. Why are you still here anyway didn't you plan to leave the thread and go to Canada? I guess i cant be surprised you cant stick to anything you say.

[Arcanist]

Im saying your beliefs are less important to you than your comfort zone. Change cannot be forced from the outside, it must be fermented from within.

My beliefs are important to me. If they weren't I wouldn't even bother discussing them here.

Yeah, people have to change. But they aren't ready, and if they aren't ready it's not rational to martyr myself for likely little impact, leaving one less agent of change in the world.

[Rumred]

I hope you are being sarcastic. Civil Rights leaders are rarely politicians.

Whats that have to do with the civil rights movement? They were out protesting and marching for change knowing full well they could be arrested or beat like a dog. Had they had the same view as some in this thread then they would of stayed home and been outraged but not done anything that could cause them any discomfort or harm.

[Arcanist]

First off i really doubt you said it to anyones face since you are a internet hero. Why are you still here anyway didn't you plan to leave the thread and go to Canada? I guess i cant be surprised you cant stick to anything you say.

If I could snap my fingers and magically end up in Canada with a life, then I would have done so a decade ago.

Why are you so intolerant of my speech? Didn't the soldiers fight for my freedom to speak?

[Abysal]

American bloodlust? I'm English... I just don't like traitors.

Legally, this means he wasn't a traitor. To be a legal traitor, you have to commit treason. Legal treason means you aid the enemy. The judge ruling that he didn't aid the enemy means he isn't a traitor. Legally.

[Mayhem]

Being found not guilty of aiding the enemy is not the same as not putting peoples' lives at risk.

hard to prove that he put peoples lives at risk if nothing happened

so either he did something no enemy cared enough for or everyone was lucky not even noticing something happened

[Kellhound]

That's very pie in the sky of you. Can you show me where dramatic change has occurred without dramatic measures? The US government is deep with corruption. They have extremely strong ties to the media and every industry in our country. The US government, at its higher echelons, cannot be changed from within. That is part of the entire point of things like the Constitution.

The American people can, if they so choose, to peacefully overthrow the entire government in 6 years. I also never said change didnt require drastic measures, I said change comes from within. In this case I am talking about the country, not the government. The government in this country has power over us only to the extent we let it. To say otherwise plays into those who wish to maintain the status quo.

[chrisisvacant]

Whats that have to do with the civil rights movement? They were out protesting and marching for change knowing full well they could be arrested or beat like a dog. Had they had the same view as some in this thread then they would of stayed home and been outraged but not done anything that could cause them any discomfort or harm.

Well - I'm not agreeing with anyone who thinks you shouldn't fight for your rights. I'm just disagreeing with the part of your statement that concluded change had to ferment from within. I guess it depends on your definition of within. Within the government? No. Within our country? Of course. But it takes those without (the people) to change those within (the government) because the government will not change itself.

[Rumred]

If I could snap my fingers and magically end up in Canada with a life, then I would have done so a decade ago.

Why are you so intolerant of my speech? Didn't the soldiers fight for my freedom to speak?

Why are you intolerant of mine? I am just asking why you are still here when you said you were gonna leave the thread and country. I also love how the people who hate the US military and government are the first to bring up the "they fought for my free speech"Am i stopping you? no i am not but i have just as much right to tell you to shut up if i wish since its a two way street.

[Kellhound]

My beliefs are important to me. If they weren't I wouldn't even bother discussing them here.

Yeah, people have to change. But they aren't ready, and if they aren't ready it's not rational to martyr myself for likely little impact, leaving one less agent of change in the world.

And with that, you admit you are not ready to change....

[Rumred]

Well - I'm not agreeing with anyone who thinks you shouldn't fight for your rights. I'm just disagreeing with the part of your statement that concluded change had to ferment from within. I guess it depends on your definition of within. Within the government? No. Within our country? Of course. But it takes those without (the people) to change those within (the government) because the government will not change itself.

Well i didn't post the change from within but i view it more as it needs to happen from within the nation.

[chrisisvacant]

The American people can, if they so choose, to peacefully overthrow the entire government in 6 years. I also never said change didnt require drastic measures, I said change comes from within. In this case I am talking about the country, not the government. The government in this country has power over us only to the extent we let it. To say otherwise plays into those who wish to maintain the status quo.

I agree with half of what you are saying. The government oversteps its bounds consistently. In fact, they overstep their boundaries so often that the average American has no clue what the boundaries are anymore. When the boundaries change (say, PRISM), the unknowing are met with jaded know-it-alls in the public who continue the job of the government to lull them back into a false sense of security.

Peacefully, though? Hmm. Not sure about that. Take a look around the world - which government exits peacefully?

[Kellhound]

hard to prove that he put peoples lives at risk if nothing happened

so either he did something no enemy cared enough for or everyone was lucky not even noticing something happened

Hard to disprove he didnt just because other actions were taken to negate the threat created as well.

[chrisisvacant]

Well i didn't post the change from within but i view it more as it needs to happen from within the nation.

I know you didn't post it - but you proverbially high fived the sentiment and alluded to civil rights leaders. Civil rights leaders raged against policies made legal by the government. Truthfully? In order to maintain control of the populace, I don't know how the government could've fought against black rights for much longer. But I digress.

[Rumred]

I agree with half of what you are saying. The government oversteps its bounds consistently. In fact, they overstep their boundaries so often that the average American has no clue what the boundaries are anymore. When the boundaries change (say, PRISM), the unknowing are met with jaded know-it-alls in the public who continue the job of the government to lull them back into a false sense of security.

Peacefully, though? Hmm. Not sure about that. Take a look around the world - which government exits peacefully?

The USSR was nearly peacefully but i am surprised that whole coup attempt didn't turn into a full on civil war. Even then its collapse has caused some regional issues that go on to this day.

[Kellhound]

I agree with half of what you are saying. The government oversteps its bounds consistently. In fact, they overstep their boundaries so often that the average American has no clue what the boundaries are anymore. When the boundaries change (say, PRISM), the unknowing are met with jaded know-it-alls in the public who continue the job of the government to lull them back into a false sense of security.

Peacefully, though? Hmm. Not sure about that. Take a look around the world - which government exits peacefully?

So you think the US Government would call out the Army to stop you from voting for a 3rd party candidate?

[Deleted]

Well to be honest I never thought that the information Manning revealed was anything ground-breaking.

I mean he leaked a whole lot of classified information but I didn't see it being in the realm of public interest (with some exceptions, like the helicopter footage).

I mean I am all for exposing warcrimes, but I'm not sure Manning really did that.


Snowden on the other hand, really is a hero. He has exposed the largest government surveillance program to date. That definitely is within the public realm.

[Kellhound]

The USSR was nearly peacefully but i am surprised that whole coup attempt didn't turn into a full on civil war. Even then its collapse has caused some regional issues that go on to this day.

I would hardly call the USSR peaceful to its own people....