Remember when it was hard to reach max level?

[Lucetia]

Those were the days...
By hard of course I mean longer... it's not an IQ test.

It was never hard to level up in Vanilla. It just took longer because people were new and had no idea what they were doing. There weren't many guides out unless you paid for them.

As talents got better, specs got vamped things got even easier.

The first toon would take a bit, but after that it took no time.

[josykay]

Hard to level? Hm, it depended on the class you choose to play. Priests sucked, warriors were not the nicest class (Undead were ok, thanks to cannibalism, which saved a lot of time and money...)

What I really miss about old leveling: You actually had to leave your capital. Today you can quest till level 10, and then you never got, to leave Stormwind/ Orgrimmar again thanks to BGs and LFG tool...

[Lochton]

I very recently leveled 1-60 in Rift after it went F2P picking up that game for the very first time and it was perfect reminder of why vanilla WoW leveling was slow and annoying since it had (almost) all the same flaws:

1) tightly packed mobs with almost guaranteed daze/dismount making traveling pain in the ass
2) long distances between questgiver and the quest objectives
3) ping-pong questing (pick two quests, travel 2min, kill mobs, come back and pick two more quests for same place and repeat that for five more times)
4) run out of level 55-60 quests frequently, forcing you to hop between continents every level breaking the natural flow of traveling
5) for WoW specifically: incredibly low droprate of some quest items - this one is not a problem in Rift

There's a huge problem with Rift though, their quest system is so dodgy and unfinished. Else, Rift is quite easy to level in as well. As soon as a rift opens, you'll work to close it and when done, you'll have earned 2-3 levels. After my experience.

[Byniri]

Can you imagine getting to 90 at that same pace?

[Tomana]

Those were the days...
By hard of course I mean longer... it's not an IQ test.

Imagine if the time to reach 1-90 was proportional to the old 1-60. This would put a so big entry barrier for new players it would be unbearable.
So yeah, the solution is to make leveling faster (and even that is not perfect).

[smagusen]

It was never hard to level up in Vanilla. It just took longer because people were new and had no idea what they were doing. There weren't many guides out unless you paid for them.

As talents got better, specs got vamped things got even easier.

The first toon would take a bit, but after that it took no time.

Not true, one cannot attribute the difficulty solely to clueless first time levelers. Mobs did not die as fast and could kill player. Pulling a group by mistake was almost guaranteed death, now it's instead aoe grind.

[vesseblah]

There's a huge problem with Rift though, their quest system is so dodgy and unfinished.

Exactly same as WoW before 2nd expansion (WLK). Cata revamped 1-60 zones fixed most of those but Outland is still shining example of shit questflow.

- - - Updated - - -

Not true, one cannot attribute the difficulty solely to clueless first time levelers.

Most of it.

Pulling a group by mistake was almost guaranteed death, now it's instead aoe grind.

Depends on class both now and then. Pulling a group by mistake is almost guaranteed death today in Dread Wastes when you're at 89 and in greens.

[smagusen]

Imagine if the time to reach 1-90 was proportional to the old 1-60. This would put a so big entry barrier for new players it would be unbearable.
So yeah, the solution is to make leveling faster (and even that is not perfect).

Unbearable? Playing the game should be fun, else there is a bigger problem than reaching max level.

Besides, if it's all about the end game and leveling is merely a "barrier", then remove the barrier altogether.

[Lochton]

Exactly same as WoW before 2nd expansion (WLK). Cata revamped 1-60 zones fixed most of those but Outland is still shining example of shit questflow.

- - - Updated - - -



Most of it.



Depends on class both now and then. Pulling a group by mistake is almost guaranteed death today in Dread Wastes when you're at 89 and in greens.

It's not the quest flow. It's the overall UI of Rift's Quest System. WoW is more simple and we can then get an AddOn to make it more advanced. But Rift is just, ugh. Yes, there is a gap in the flow in Outland just as in Rift.

I must say though, I understand why Outland haven't been focused for updates. It's a crumbling rock, if they updated it fully, it'll be smaller. But they could make a better flow for the quests. Or even fix the dead end ones. The quest for Horde in Hellfire that allows you to take the bombing run again for no rewards at all.

[vesseblah]

Besides, if it's all about the end game and leveling is merely a "barrier", then remove the barrier altogether.

WoW and most other traditional MMORPGs has two very distinct and separate games. The one that happens before level cap and the one that comes after.

Whole another question is is that good or bad thing overall. Considering GW2 proved to be failure without endgame, I'd say it's necessary.

[Racthoh]

time =/= difficulty.

i DO remember clicking while leveling and that made it hard for me sometimes.

[Lime]

WoW and most other traditional MMORPGs has two very distinct and separate games. The one that happens before level cap and the one that comes after.

Whole another question is is that good or bad thing overall. Considering GW2 proved to be failure without endgame, I'd say it's necessary.

Plenty of people play GW2... Poor analogy.

[vesseblah]

It's not the quest flow. It's the overall UI of Rift's Quest System. WoW is more simple and we can then get an AddOn to make it more advanced. But Rift is just, ugh.

Dunno what version you've been playing, but the current 2.3 is pretty much on par with WoW including built-in quest tracker showing the targets on map. It's actually even better than WoW, tracking multiple quests simultaneously on both mini and world maps. Slightly buggy but works 95% of the time.

[Yarathir]

Leveling taking ages sure seems like a great way to attract people.





Maybe Blizzard will go back to that, given that it's a good way to "gate content" as well and make it last longer so they have to do less work. Hurray! We all win!

[vesseblah]

Plenty of people play GW2... Poor analogy.

...For PvP because there's no endgame content in PvE.

[Mirishka]

Those were the days...
By hard of course I mean longer... it's not an IQ test.

1-90 without heirlooms and guild perks and such isn't exactly a brief stint. Its all the extra/+exp crap that speeds it up so much. Mind you, a huge part of the 'good old days' of leveling (I've played since 12/04) were the horribly disjointed and scattered quests that sent you all over the place. Back then, that felt like part of the magic... now, for me at least, I must prefer the narrative flow of current WoW questing. I honestly had no idea why I did half the quests I did in vanilla aside from the fact that I was asked by someone with a yellow ? to do them.

What I miss most are the tough group quests, like the one in Dragonblight to kill those several named elites. Those were a pain to solo and I made a couple of friends doing them.

[vesseblah]

Maybe Blizzard will go back to that, given that it's a good way to "gate content" as well and make it last longer so they have to do less work.

Doesn't work, SWToR proved that. BioWare thought it would take months for people to be done with leveling. Week after launch hardcore players were at 50 wondering why the endgame is shit and/or not done.

[Lochton]

Dunno what version you've been playing, but the current 2.3 is pretty much on par with WoW including built-in quest tracker showing the targets on map. It's actually even better than WoW, tracking multiple quests simultaneously on both mini and world maps. Slightly buggy but works 95% of the time.

Played the new update. And the quest UI just seems more layed in than it needed to. And some single location quests tends to disappear at times when you are close enough. Just speaking of what I know from last week playing, as I was told I had to try it since it was F2P

[Anjerith]

It was only ever time-consuming, it was NEVER hard.

The "hardest" it ever was was in classic, when you ran out of quests at 55, monsters outside BRM were too high to solo, so you had to go to Winterspring and grind the frostsabers for Five.Complete.Levels.

Again, that wasn't "hard", it was time consuming.

[Lime]

...For PvP because there's no endgame content in PvE.

Depends on your definition of endgame. Its just not the traditional sense like WoW.

I personally don't see how a game sustaining itself has failed.

But I shouldn't have said anything, thats a topic for a completely different thread / forum.