Why don't people want combo points on the player?

[Noriar]

From a PVP perspective:

Aren't rogues ment to be a disrupting ninja from the shadows?
Who can lockdown their target, disable another and deal dmg in the same time?

With any new design it would be awesome to get rewarded by harassing multiple players/target's, one after the other.
That way we build up combo points and dump the combo points with a special move.
Note that I just wrote *special move* instead of *Finishing move*.
Most of the time we aren't finishing anything anyway...or are we finishing a combo (*Finishing Combo -ability-*?)

Maybe include a time limit in which you get rewarded by getting certain combo's.
Took too long to combo? Start/try again (I failed, I must restealth/vanish).

Combo Points on the player rather on the target could be fun and unique this way.

However, rogues are still and will be an awesome class regardless of any changes.
The mechanics work, I've never felt handicapped.

[Warstar]

I think one of the biggest reasons for combo points on the target instead of on the rogue is Kidney Shot and similar finishers.

Monks have their combo on themselves, but their Chi spender moves are a) only damage b) spend a fixed amount of chi for static damage.
Same goes for paladins - they can store up to 5 holy power, but spend 3 at max. Also HoJ is a separate ability with a longer CD which compensates for the face it's instant, ranged and can be thrown on any enemy.

CP on rogue basically means you can throw a 6 seconds stun on any target in melee, which is a really strong option.

To be honest, the more i think about combo points, the more i feel they are just right to stay on target. Target swapping in PvE can be annoying, but this way it requires planning; same goes for PvP. I'm not that sure that bringing them on the rogue will be the right choice.

Chi only being damage is limiting? If that's what you're implying then you're so wrong. Their CC has no resource or ramp up time and chi only being damage means that they never have to take a damage nerf when using utility. And the fixed chi cost is just how they're balanced especially because jab hits for so little.

As for paladins sure they can only spend 3 but don't forget that divine purpose gives them free 3 point HP users. A ret paladin can very easily while in CDs and doing insane damage do a hammer of wrath, store up a 5th HP, proc divine purpose, templar's verdict, templar's verdict, <HP builder>, proc another divine purpose, templar's verdict, templar's verdict, hammer of wrath. So while they can only spend 3 HP at a time they can effectively hit 2 executes, and 4 eviscerates (which hit a shit ton harder than eviscerate) and get this chain relatively easily/frequently and do this all within the time frame it takes a rogue to build up a single eviscerate AND then don't have to worry about HP being on the target since it's on them so ya... don't get your argument there.

Paladin ranged stun on a 30 second CD no HP cost no cast time pretty much a free stun that especially being ranged makes it even stronger.

Death knights can grab a talent that gives them a paladins renamed HoJ so same as above.

Shaman have an aoe potentially ranged stun that especially with totemic project can effectively counter the delay on it.

Warlocks can talent into a ranged aoe stun instant no cast time.

Monks either have an aoe melee stun, a targeted stun that stuns everyone in a line in front of them, or ring of peace which is so ridiculously OP in pvp and seems strong enough to be a 3 min CD but is only 45 seconds.

Frost mages have another HoJ which has the added benefit of working with shatter combos making their stun a damage increasing CD as well.

Druids can get mighty bash which is a melee HoJ as well as druids have maim which is essentially kidney shot... oh except that it's CD is 10 seconds AND it does damage instead of just the stun AND it procs predatory swiftness giving them a free instant cast heal that heals for a lot or a free instant cast CC which gives them effectively 2 CC for the price of 1. But it does have a 5 CP cost to it but I'll be damned if those 5 CP aren't OP as hell compared to lil ol kidney shot.

Warriors have a ranged stun/gap closer with charge that also generates rage for them and can stun for longer and have a built in slow with a talent. Warriors also have an aoe melee stun that's almost as long as KS but has a longer CD UNLESS you stun 3 or more people then it's the same CD as KS so not only is there no resource cost but the more amazing it is the lower a CD it has. And if they want to they can get storm bolt for a ranged stun/damage ability but their other talents are usually too strong for that.

So by the insane amount of other comparable/better stuns out there I don't think rogues having KS with no target build up requirement, being limited to melee range, taking a large damage decrease by using the stun since it effectively takes away an eviscerate and that it takes more resources than anyone else to use it would in no way be broken to have CP on the rogue instead of the target for pvp. If only just because so many other classes have a similar ability already and it hasn't broken the game.

Also especially for sub evis hit's like a wet noodles outside of FW which takes time to put up. Rogues don't have big hard hitting crit your face off abilities anymore. If a rogue walked up and 5 cp eviscerated me without any ramp up time who cares. Sub needs hemo/rupture up first. Assassination needs rupture up over envenom. And combat just doesn't hit that hard and with the SS change they'll be generating CP so slow in pvp anyways that it doesn't even matter. Maybe it'd hurt in a deep insight but those are few and far between and there are plenty of other classes that hit harder easier. A death knight can walk up and obliterate me harder than I've ever been eviscerated for.

Rogues are already the worst class in pvp. If they get a buff then awesome. Please do it. Is this game changing? Hell no. On live a rogue can already redirect every 3rd kidney shot anyways or MfD every 3rd or a combination of both 2 out of 3 KS can be target swapped to. So honestly they'd change it from 2/3 target swap KS to 3/3 and mind you that's only IF the rogue even wants to target swap. If the rogue is tunneling the healer or a dps and needs to peel it then they don't even need to target swap to stun.

This is in no way game breaking like people are crying about. Especially since the ENTIRE rogue class is the least competitive pvp spec out there going from crap (sub) to relatively unheard of in pvp (assassination) to just not being in pvp at all (combat). If rogues got something that made them better and gave them an edge then omg please do it. Aside from the passing fart of a time that CnD was strong rogues have been bottom of the bottom of the barrel for the entire MoP in pvp. Would this be a buff to rogues in pvp? Hell ya it would be and we need it. Please buff rogues for pvp. Worst class and least represented in pvp so if anything aside from the massive amount of QoL improvement any buff we could possibly get would be amazing. And mind you this isn't even a huge buff. It's not like rogues are going to get cp on them and all of a sudden start doing 50% more damage. Most of their stuff is going to stay the same. They'e going to need to do the same openers/ramp up time. They're going to need to keep up the same buffs that they still do and their stuff is going to hit just as hard as it does now. Just when every other class in the game calls for a target swap rogues can actually keep up with the pack instead of being Forest Gump with two braces on our legs apologizing to our team mates for being so slow on a burst target swap.

And I think that's the biggest thing about this change. It's not asking for something new. It's not asking for something that other classes don't have that would give rogues a huge advantage over every one else. All it's asking is to let rogues target swap like every other class in the game can.

I've been tanking on my monk a lot lately just cause ToT's been out awhile and kinda bored (as late patch always gets) so just been messing around on alts. On our Tuesday raid while playing my rogue I had a brain fart and went to swap to a target and had such an OMG moment when I swaped and my CP didn't act like chi. It's never happened before but this was the first time that I really felt limited by my class. I've been playing my rogue since vanilla when the game came out. I'm used to CP and how they act and I've always just worked around it but since playing other classes the game play flow just smacked me in the face and it wasn't that I felt like I would have been super strong or anything or that I would have gotten a damage increase. I was just in a groove and everything was flowing perfectly and then I had a big ass semi track smack me in the face and everything just had this huge abrupt stop. It just felt absolutely horrible compared to my monk and made me sad for a moment.

[redderz1]

Just remove redirect, put combo points on the rogue.

Helps with skills bloat too.

[delus]

This really sounds like the answer I personally was looking for (except for FoK CP gen and dead targets). It wouldn't break PvP (no instant-swap CC) but the major aggravations of lost CP where rogues really can fall by the wayside (short lived (3-4s) adds that need to be swapped to, in particular). I'm not sure requiring charges is necessary, but I suppose if it is it would best mirror the current (next tier) glyphed redirect CD (10s). Rogue target-swapping punishment across all specs has been reduced as (almost) everyone else loses what little they had; it's the next logical step.

I have the feeling that they are eventually going to one DR on all cc. If that were to be the case, would it matter? Would kidney shot being such a short cooldown make a difference?

[Qly]

Because that's how the class works...
why don't i start with 100% demonic fury? affliction starts with full shards!!!
why isn't my rage saved??
why do i lose my chi overtime??
why do all my dots stay on the target i was attacking when i switch to a new one??

[Damax]

Because that's how the class works...
why don't i start with 100% demonic fury? affliction starts with full shards!!!
why isn't my rage saved??
why do i lose my chi overtime??
why do all my dots stay on the target i was attacking when i switch to a new one??

how's that an argument???

You don't start ANY fight with 5 combo points
Your combo points disappear when you kill a target in pve/pvp except pve sometimes you can be lucky and redirect or slice and dice/recup
I'd gladly lose 1 combo points every 10 seconds out of combat if they were on my rogue a la monk
Every class dots don't move. except for aff warlock and lucky feral druids

rogue class design team is living in 2004 while all the other classes are in 2013

[kilj]

how's that an argument???

You don't start ANY fight with 5 combo points
Your combo points disappear when you kill a target in pve/pvp except pve sometimes you can be lucky and redirect or slice and dice/recup
I'd gladly lose 1 combo points every 10 seconds out of combat if they were on my rogue a la monk
Every class dots don't move. except for aff warlock and lucky feral druids

rogue class design team is living in 2004 while all the other classes are in 2013

Are you sure the rogue class team is still living?

[Crovyn]

Without having read the whole thread. I have posted in many threads why combo points on target is an outdated mechanic (and who the heck doesn't want it on the player??)

In short:

- It's super clunky.
- all other classes besides feral who have a combo system have it on the player and not on the target.
- It doesn't make sense is just a frustrating 9 year old gameplay mechanic.
- It's super clunky.

To the warlock: your old souls shard system was outdated but nothing compared to the problems combo points on target are. it was just tedious. CP on target is sucking the fun out of fast PVE fights and is a completely unnecessary hurdle in PVP.

Rogues need to be more fun, not hold on to nonsense just because it seemed good in 2004. Devs need to finally dare to change rogues for the better.

[Koji2k11]

rogue class team is dead since 2004 RiP

[Dextar]

Only reason I see them not doing it is because of PvP, "blowing up one target switch to healer 5cp KS, back on target, healer trinkets, blind healer, kill target".

My favorite is on fights like Megaera where sometimes you could save the CP to redirect and other times it would just vanish.

[Dropndestroyrr]

There isn't a "class team" afaik. All the developers work on all classes.

[Koji2k11]

There isn't a "class team" afaik. All the developers work on all classes.

this explains the crazyness with ability's rogues should have or other classes got from the rogue toolkit *cough Stealth cough*

[Koji2k11]

Only reason I see them not doing it is because of PvP, "blowing up one target switch to healer 5cp KS, back on target, healer trinkets, blind healer, kill target".

My favorite is on fights like Megaera where sometimes you could save the CP to redirect and other times it would just vanish.

and its not possible right now ? by your expalnation you basicly build CP's on 1 target then switch to heal kidney for 5 CP. 5cp are gone go back to traget still 0 CP blind heal once he trinkets out of stun kill target with still 0 cp ? sounds legit

[Deleted]

if i remember correctly rogues want CP on them since Vanilla. But Blizzard didnt listen and instead designed Maelstrom which is basically nothing else but another form of Combo Points.. Holy power followed and even CHI.

Ferals should get it too ofc.

[reckoner04]

Let's make Rogues more boring and homogenize classes a little bit more. Please GC? This is so inconvenient, I can't play my broken Rogue anymore with CP on the target.

Infracted.

[Verain]

Let's make Rogues more boring and homogenize classes a little bit more.

I've played rogue since vanilla, and I can tell you, there isn't much excitement to combo points. But there is some disappointment and playing backwards. For example:

On a fight like Horridon, I will pick a target with moderate health and land powerful attacks on it. The worst case is that someone with a really powerful attack doesn't see I'm on the mob and kills it, destroying my combo points. In this case, he should have targeted another mob, or I should have- raid damage is reduced by this double kill. Other classes really don't have this limitation, and in fact often benefit the raid by doing what makes the most sense (you "should" all focus on the same targets because a dead mob does 0 damage).

That being said, there is SOME excitement to playing it correctly. The issue is, do all specs need this? Does every rogue spec have to have this same limitation? It's so silly at this point for, say, combat, to have this restriction. Between revealing strike and the need to actually press offensive finishers to actually advance your cooldowns, combat definitely doesn't need combo points on the target, and it is very much not tuned around this. Despite combat simming and simcrafting higher than mutilate this whole tier (and despite the warnings from the guys in charge of these not to compare them direct), rogues have consistently engaged in a make-believe about combat, and have assumed that there's just some really good rogue out there destroying meters and I guess not posting logs.

So, I'm definitely convinced that CPs should be on the rogue for at least one spec.

Please GC? This is so inconvenient, I can't play my broken Rogue anymore with CP on the target.

This is a silly statement. I'll refer you to:

It likely won't happen. Rogues get a lot of hate. Anything that helps rogues is controversial - you can expect to see a lot of non-rogues coming into this thread and saying it would be game breaking.

You see, rogues aren't broken. They are underrepped in rated PvP, in fact, and were only overpowered- and only because they could support a hunter- for the first third of one season this expac (aka, not long enough to even get a good rating). The first season of this expac they had no showing at all. Rogues aren't quite entirely absent, but neither are they very good. They are underpowered enough that they are seeing substantial movement buffs, moderate survival buffs, and small damage buffs going into next tier. During which, we have no reason to believe that they will be all that repped either.

Pretend, for a moment, that giving combo points to the rogue in one or more specs made those broken. I guess because kidney shot would only require giving up a lot of damage instead of also giving up your target restricted resource. What level of broken would actually ensue? More or less broken than hunters, frost mages, or warriors have been this expansion? I would assume less. Everyone else in the game has essentially no restriction on their CC.

But, pretend, even with that, it was broken.


What would they do?

Um, probably fix it?


It's silly to assume the devs would put, say, CP on the combat rogue, and then never bother to test the combat rogue.

[Warstar]

@Verain

I think it'd be silly to just give 1 spec CP on the player. Sure combat gets a lot but does does assassination especially with assassinations reliance on having rupture on the target for venomous wounds for both energy as well as the damage that it does.

You bring up a good point about combat with their heavy reliance on restless blades and I think the biggest thing to remember is that it would definitely buff the class but only in certain situations and in like a... dps over the course of a raid a rogue now compared to if a rogue had cp on the player I think the over all damage done would be relatively similar since the "buffs" it would bring are very very situational.

From a PvP stand point honestly the only class that wouldn't even benefit that much would be sub. As I've said before with MfD and the current version of redirect they can already KS the healer 2 out of 3 times a minute (and with the 5.4 glyph they can redirect KS every time) and on a target swap to kill they're going to either use vanish or shadow dance and do a full opener on a target and with HAT + premed + garrote + ambush X2 they're well over 5 CP already so sub pvp won't even change that much maybe just being able to open with a rupture before dancing and then opening with a cheap shot instead of garrote idk. Combat and assassination would get a really nice buff with it but sub and the way it works honestly it won't change hardly anything as far as burst and control is concerned and especially with the 5.4 redirect glyph it would be purely QoL if at that point.

[Warstar]

this explains the crazyness with ability's rogues should have or other classes got from the rogue toolkit *cough Stealth cough*

Pure opinion but it can be argued that rogues were the best designed class in vanilla which is why they have had relatively few changes and most class have been reworked to copy a lot of the rogue mechanics aka "energy" bars (even warlocks mana is closer to an energy bar now) and a dual resource system.

Even out of all the complaints currently there really aren't any that are drastically game changing being asked for. CP on the player is not a new concept and has been done already. And aside from people asking for a change to combat to make their game play smoother (which has partially been done with a band aid) rogue's aren't asking for much.

To the warlock... demonic fury is a major dps CD that can be activated and deactivated at will giving the spec the most control out of any other in the game over their dps and reaction to trinket procs and is probably the best designed spec in the game right now giving a bad player ok dps but a great player spectacular dps. Plus demonic fury grows pretty fast so you can activate it relatively quickly you don't need a full 200 to metamorphosis. In PvP rage and chi never disappear since they're in combat almost 100% of the time AND warriors get enough rage that they can even sit in def stance and still put out a lot of dps. And you must be a bad warlock if you don't know what soulburn -> soul swap is... And out of everything you brought up the only one you didn't is demo which has the longest charge time of embers out of any resource but they also bring the most point by point than any other.

[reckoner04]

I never said giving CP on the player would make Rogues broken. This is a non-issue because you would simply balance around that fact (like you balance around everything else).

Talking about sims, PvP rep etc. doesn't make any sense, they're of no concern in this discussion. If that's what you care about, then you should simply ask for buffs. This is a discussion about making Rogues play better/more interesting, regardless of the numbers that result from that change, those will simply be balanced afterwards.

In my eyes, this is just another case of a class forum where some people shout something and too many simply agree, since it is an inconvenience after all (to have CP on the target, that is) and hardly anyone denies a buff like that for their own class. But if that's how you would design a game, why don't you go and play on a private server and just oneshot everything? Giving CP on the player certainly doesn't make the gameplay more interesting.

I agree, it is a question worth asking, and maybe even worth testing on a single spec. But in the end you don't gain a lot, while the class loses some of its identity and you get a ton of people whining about it. Just look at the removal of Warrior stance dancing, that was an inconvenience as well (much more so than CP on the target) but it was also something that defined the Warrior class. Actually, I can't think of anything except Charge and Heroic Leap that make a Warrior special nowadays. Rage doesn't really seem like an interesting mechanic anymore (could be wrong about that though). Would you like Rogues going in such a direction? Just a collection of melee abilities with a thief/assassin theme for their visuals/names?

In the end you get a lot of Rogues whining on the forum who actually liked to play their class with a mechanic that existed for 10 years already.

GC worth quoting:

I don't frequent the class forums personally. Too much echo chamber effect and any class who disagrees gets shouted down

I hope I'm done editing now.

[Warstar]

I never said giving CP on the player would make Rogues broken. This is a non-issue because you would simply balance around that fact (like you balance around everything else).

In my eyes, this is just another case of a class forum where some people shout something and too many simply agree, since it is an inconvenience after all (to have CP on the target, that is) and hardly anyone denies a buff like that for their own class. But if that's how you would design a game, why don't you go and play on a private server and just oneshot everything?

I agree, it is a question worth asking, and maybe even worth testing on a single spec. But in the end you don't gain a lot, while the class loses some of its identity and you get a ton of people whining about it. Just look at the removal of Warrior stance dancing, that was an inconvenience as well (much more so than CP on the target) but it was also something that defined the Warrior class. Actually, I can't think of anything except Charge and Heroic Leap that make a Warrior special nowadays. Rage doesn't really seem like an interesting mechanic anymore (could be wrong about that though). Would you like Rogues going in such a direction?

Yes. Warriors didn't lose anything because they still "stance dance" if you want to consider that but just for the damage reduction of def stance. Every warrior out there just macroed stance dancing into their abilities so they weren't actually these awesome players you make them out to be they were just pushing macroed buttons. All blizzard did was make them not have to macro anymore.

There's no identity that rogues have associated with cp on the target and that's a horrible argument to make.

What is the rogues identity: stun lock, stealth, vanishing and running away, stunning some more, poisons, the best class in the game at locking down spell casters, stuff like evasion and being hard to hit and dodging a lot, cloak of shadows and pissing off spell users, stun locking some more.

Those are the things that people identify with a rogue. There has never been a time that a person has been chatting with friends reminiscing about the good ol times in wow and they mentioned with great fondness about how their favorite aspect of the game (unless it's just dripping with sarcasm) was how rogues have cp on the target. That is not what rogues have to identify with aside from something bad that made them class change.

So answer your question: yes I very much hope that they take the giant head ache of CP on the target and move it to the player because rogues won't loose any sort of identity that you think they have associated with it.