Patch 5.4 PTR - Build 17314 - numbers pass

[Xiphias]

Yea, I am not sure any longer. I play a hunter so of course I would like to see buffs, but I am honestly not sure we need them. I haven't played much on the PTR, so most of this is just speculation.

I looked at my guilds last HC Ji-Kun kill and ran the numbers for Kill command and Arcane shot exclusively, going of the assumption that the same distribution of crits and hits of the two spells would be the same (unlikely and I know that it is a rather small sample size). Afterwards it did occur to me that I had not done anything about the fact that there will be 2 Kill Commands less due to readiness going away.

But anyway, just comparing the Arcane Shot/Kill Command it turned out to be around a 7k dps increase. So depending on how much DPS the Stampede changes give I think that we are going to be fine, bear in mind that most higher output classes are getting tuned down a bit (Mages, Enhancment Shamans). So we will most likely actually be higher in general than what we were before.

You're forgetting that we are one of the classes hit hardest by the RPPM double-dipping nerf, and keep in mind that on Ji-Kun you have Primal Nutriment to inflate that DPS differential.

Our scaling is also pretty lackluster (which is only going to be compounded if they end up giving a band-aid through Aspect of the Hawk) - we scale primarily on weapon damage and Agility and find secondary stats mediocre, so as the other classes get gear upgrades the boosted secondary stats make for a greater overall increase to their DPS than our upgrades provide.

[Deleted]

Good points Xiphias, that had no occured to me.. Atleast the Primal Nutriment thing, I am not to sure about the RPPM tho, but it might be the case. I just feel like the uptime on my trinkets are pretty similar to the other DPS in our raid (I am here comparing to an assasination rogue and a enhancment shaman).

A rough calculation done on Durumu logs shows it as a 323 dps loss, Also without accounting for the readiness removal. I seriously doubt that stampede is going to make up for that, let alone boost us to be relatively higher than we were in 5.3

[think309]

Good points Xiphias, that had no occured to me.. Atleast the Primal Nutriment thing, I am not to sure about the RPPM tho, but it might be the case. I just feel like the uptime on my trinkets are pretty similar to the other DPS in our raid (I am here comparing to an assasination rogue and a enhancment shaman).

A rough calculation done on Durumu logs shows it as a 323 dps loss, Also without accounting for the readiness removal. I seriously doubt that stampede is going to make up for that, let alone boost us to be relatively higher than we were in 5.3

Also, did you take into account the lesser amount of arcane shots you'll do with the 50% increase in cost?

[Deleted]

Also, did you take into account the lesser amount of arcane shots you'll do with the 50% increase in cost?

That I did

[tyrindor]

Yea, I am not sure any longer. I play a hunter so of course I would like to see buffs, but I am honestly not sure we need them. I haven't played much on the PTR, so most of this is just speculation.

I looked at my guilds last HC Ji-Kun kill and ran the numbers for Kill command and Arcane shot exclusively, going of the assumption that the same distribution of crits and hits of the two spells would be the same (unlikely and I know that it is a rather small sample size). Afterwards it did occur to me that I had not done anything about the fact that there will be 2 Kill Commands less due to readiness going away.

But anyway, just comparing the Arcane Shot/Kill Command it turned out to be around a 7k dps increase. So depending on how much DPS the Stampede changes give I think that we are going to be fine, bear in mind that most higher output classes are getting tuned down a bit (Mages, Enhancment Shamans). So we will most likely actually be higher in general than what we were before.

A hunter in near BiS gear will be doing roughly 14K less DPS than they are on live if patch goes live as-is. That's a pretty big hit that all classes took with the RPPM nerf. However, those classes got buffs this last build that brought them back up (or damn close) to pre-nerf RPPM numbers. Hunters did not.

No one wants to raid SoO for a month just to get back up to the DPS we are currently at. There was a reason why the 2nd number pass buffed a bunch of classes, hunters were completely forgotten. I'm almost 100% sure we'll get attention next build, but if we don't i'm going to start to get really worried.

http://www.femaledwarf.com/

[Noctifer616]

You're forgetting that we are one of the classes hit hardest by the RPPM double-dipping nerf

Are you sure? Isn't it that rogues and enhancement shamans have a lot higher uptime on the trinkets than hunters?

I know we get more AP from agility then them, but don't our abilities have worse AP scaling than theirs?

[Kibu]

Are you sure? Isn't it that rogues and enhancement shamans have a lot higher uptime on the trinkets than hunters?

I know we get more AP from agility then them, but don't our abilities have worse AP scaling than theirs?

Hunters have by far higher uptimes than rogues...also what is a shaman ?

[Hunter Extraordinaire]

Hunters have by far higher uptimes than rogues...also what is a shaman ?

Maybe you're English
Shay-man

(I'm not bashing or whatever you wanna call it...I'm part British >_> )

[jinsu]

except we ONLY scale with AP and weapon damage, where rogues and ench shamans scale with secondary stats.

[Janysa]

Yeah... Let's see...

T13: 4.3.5 - AotH buffed, Black Arrow buffed
T14: 5.1 - AotH buffed
T15: 5.3 - AotH buffed, Blink Strikes buffed
T16: 5.5 - AotH buffed???

More like:

Patch 4.0 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 600.
Patch 4.1 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 2600, was 600.
Patch 4.3 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 3200, was 2600.
Patch 5.0 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 10%.
Patch 5.1 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 15%, was 10%.
Patch 5.3 Aspect of the Hawk now increases attack power by 25%, was 15%.

[Deleted]

It is more like

Patch 4.0->6.0: Aspect of the Hawk recurring buffs increases you scaling problems by 500%

[Naggash]

AotH wont fix problems. It will only bring BM to top again (not top class, but by spec).
I can see a 10-15% aoth buff, but then we'll need something like 15-20% to ExS, 15-20% to BA. Or it again will be a BM patch, where BM pulls 20k+ dps more. And ofc MM need much more love, but i doubt we'll be using it in this tier.

[Noctifer616]

It is more like

Patch 4.0->6.0: Aspect of the Hawk recurring buffs increases you scaling problems by 500%

Are you seriously suggesting that AoTH in 4.X and 5.X is the same? Do you understand what the word "scaling" means?

Buffing AoTH in the past was an issue because it was a fixed number, it did not scale.

AoTH now is not a fixed number, it scales with agility. Buffing AoTH is the same as buffing every single ability we got, but easier because you only have to adjust one number, and not a ton of formulas.

To make you understand, let's say you have a shot that does damage based on 100% AP. Now, you can buff it by changing the formula, or by increasing the amount of AP. If you have 10k AP, it deals 11k damage, if you don't change the formula but buff AoTH by 10%, it will still do 11k damage, because now you have 11k AP.

Now, they could increasing mastery scaling, but there are some issues with it. For SV, it increases damage of all the shots that do magical damage, but not pet damage. For BM it only increases pet damage. So you see, buffing AoTH instead would increase the damage overall (pet + shots).

There could be other ways to make secondary stats more powerful, like adding an extra dot on crit like MM does, or making dots scale with haste.

But they are past the part of changing mechanics.

I am talking about pure damage output here, not mechanical limitations like lack of multy doting or raid utility, which is also an issue we have.

[Perrito]

Are you seriously suggesting that AoTH in 4.X and 5.X is the same? Do you understand what the word "scaling" means?

Buffing AoTH in the past was an issue because it was a fixed number, it did not scale.

AoTH now is not a fixed number, it scales with agility. Buffing AoTH is the same as buffing every single ability we got, but easier because you only have to adjust one number, and not a ton of formulas.

To make you understand, let's say you have a shot that does damage based on 100% AP. Now, you can buff it by changing the formula, or by increasing the amount of AP. If you have 10k AP, it deals 11k damage, if you don't change the formula but buff AoTH by 10%, it will still do 11k damage, because now you have 11k AP.

Now, they could increasing mastery scaling, but there are some issues with it. For SV, it increases damage of all the shots that do magical damage, but not pet damage. For BM it only increases pet damage. So you see, buffing AoTH instead would increase the damage overall (pet + shots).

There could be other ways to make secondary stats more powerful, like adding an extra dot on crit like MM does, or making dots scale with haste.

But they are past the part of changing mechanics.

I am talking about pure damage output here, not mechanical limitations like lack of multy doting or raid utility, which is also an issue we have.

you arguing what the Word scalling mean not what the Word hunter scalling mean, sure thing is much better to buff AOTH now than before, thing is it got to the point that our 2nd stats are worth nothing to us, i went the other day to ask mr robot and here are some of the stats weights for hunters:

For BM:
agi worth 4.3
weapon damage 3.7
haste 1.75
crit 1.7
mastery 1.3

this is the problem, we do scale a bit better than before because AOTH is % based vs raw number but still dont fix the issue, right now i think going for socket bonus is a waste unless you end up gaining more agi from the bonus. so those socket bonus that net you 120 agi or 60 agi per gem in the gain of 160 2nd stats are not even going to be worth it. why because 20 agi could give you a better gain than gaining 160 of any 2nd stat.

so at the end your bis would be HTF on the pieces and offpieces that give you the most agi. thats just sad.

[Noctifer616]

so at the end your bis would be HTF on the pieces and offpieces that give you the most agi. thats just sad.

What's wrong with primary stat being the best? Sure better than rogues that stack haste over agility.

[Ninjeff]

For BM:
agi worth 4.3
weapon damage 3.7
haste 1.75
crit 1.7
mastery 1.3

this is the problem, we do scale a bit better than before because AOTH is % based vs raw number but still dont fix the issue, right now i think going for socket bonus is a waste unless you end up gaining more agi from the bonus. so those socket bonus that net you 120 agi or 60 agi per gem in the gain of 160 2nd stats are not even going to be worth it. why because 20 agi could give you a better gain than gaining 160 of any 2nd stat.

In your stat weights you have agi at 4.3 and haste at 1.75. Am I wrong to assume that therfore it takes 2.46 points of haste to equal 1 point of agility. So, by that math 20 agility equals about 49 haste, and anything above 49 haste would be better than 20 agility. I am very confused how 20 agility is better than 160 haste. According to your numbers it would take more than 65 agility to be better than 160 haste unless Im misinterpreting the numbers.

[Perrito]

In your stat weights you have agi at 4.3 and haste at 1.75. Am I wrong to assume that therfore it takes 2.46 points of haste to equal 1 point of agility. So, by that math 20 agility equals about 49 haste, and anything above 49 haste would be better than 20 agility. I am very confused how 20 agility is better than 160 haste. According to your numbers it would take more than 65 agility to be better than 160 haste unless Im misinterpreting the numbers.

after the patch that would increase even more that number you wont be able to go for socket bonus. the agi gain will be so huge that you just want more. 2nd stats right now are worth crap still some sockets are worth it the ones that give you agi, if a piece of gear isnt going to give you agi as socket bonus you will drop and stack agi.

yellow gem
blue gem

120 haste socket

^ not worth it if they just keep buffing AOTH. the agi lost to match the socket gain will be better if you just gem pure agi.

you are losing 160 agi gaining 160 hit, 120+160 haste. agi gains are so huge atm that outweights our weapon damage, that alone should tell you how bad our scalling is, while most of the other clases that scale really well gem straight up 2nd stats.

[Deleted]

Are you seriously suggesting that AoTH in 4.X and 5.X is the same? Do you understand what the word "scaling" means?

Buffing AoTH in the past was an issue because it was a fixed number, it did not scale.

AoTH now is not a fixed number, it scales with agility. Buffing AoTH is the same as buffing every single ability we got, but easier because you only have to adjust one number, and not a ton of formulas.

To make you understand, let's say you have a shot that does damage based on 100% AP. Now, you can buff it by changing the formula, or by increasing the amount of AP. If you have 10k AP, it deals 11k damage, if you don't change the formula but buff AoTH by 10%, it will still do 11k damage, because now you have 11k AP.

Now, they could increasing mastery scaling, but there are some issues with it. For SV, it increases damage of all the shots that do magical damage, but not pet damage. For BM it only increases pet damage. So you see, buffing AoTH instead would increase the damage overall (pet + shots).

There could be other ways to make secondary stats more powerful, like adding an extra dot on crit like MM does, or making dots scale with haste.

But they are past the part of changing mechanics.

I am talking about pure damage output here, not mechanical limitations like lack of multy doting or raid utility, which is also an issue we have.

I am suggesting that each time we have been buffed through AotH, our scaling problem has been masked and enlarged. IT doens't matter if AotH is a plain AP buff or a %, it doens't solve the problem. (Even when switching from a plain AP buff to a % was done to counter the scaling issues, along with the new hunter's mark)

[Deleted]

What i've seen hunter dps is very solid in raids. Not top dps but nothing to complain about.
The pvp nerfs was justified.

[Deleted]

What i've seen hunter dps is very solid in raids. Not top dps but nothing to complain about.
The pvp nerfs was justified.

which raids? normal modes with 520 ilvl? flex testing? because on 10 man heroic testing with no ilvl restriction or ilvl buff hunters were doing 20-40% less dps than boomkins, locks or mages, on almost every fight