Horde racial's are overpowered. Why isn't this being addressed?

[Ryve]

Blizzard nerfed Will of the Forsaken into the ground, supposedly for being over-powered in PvP. Then they gave the same ability to humans and nobody seemed to mind. Horde favoritism indeed.

People need to shut up about Every Man for Himself when discussing PvE. Alliance have one race with a free trinket in PvP... What does that have to do with the fact that Horde can stack a raid with races that have free DPS CDs?

[OrcsRLame]

... so what?



Honestly, no matter the circumstances racials are never going to be significant. They're completely drowned out by all the other factors in a raid.

I'll say it again, if you're not a world first guild and you're wiping at 1%, you stand to gain far more by lifting your game than what you get from changing racials. You're probably only doing 80% of the DPS that one of those world first guys could do in the same gear you're wearing, made up example.

If on the other hand you're in Blood Legion or Vodka or whatever, then yeah maybe it's worth it. Then again, those guys basically devote their entire lives to making sure they have every advantage no matter how ridiculously slight. There is no limit to the amount of effort they will put in if there is gain attached. To everyone else, there is an effort vs. payoff decision to be made.

More dps is more dps, that's what.

Getting better at the game and having a better racial are not mutually exclusive things. Why not improve yourself and have the best racial?

There is no such thing as being "drowned out". More dps is more dps; it's either there or its not.

You're obviously not even trying to understand the multiple examples I've given.

[Stolberg]

Because their similarity does not make them remotely equal in power. Undead can break out of Fear(okay, this IS good), Sleep(comparatively uncommon), and Charm(very uncommon, even moreso now that Priests lost Mind Control as a baseline ability). Humans can break out of ANYTHING. They can break out of everything Undead can, plus STUNS, Roots, Snares, Incapacitates...if you think those are remotely on the same level, I seriously, seriously question how much PvP you have done, cause I'm guessing it's just short of NONE.

As for trolls, okay, yeah, 5% can be a pretty big deal in PvE...if Beasts are there. OTOH, if you're fighting something without Beasts, it's then 100% useless. You'll note there weren't a ton of trolls running around in Wrath...

20% haste over 10 secs doesn't seem useless to me.

[Mormolyce]

To illustrate how good berserking (troll racial) is for burst, this is a 20 second burst window for an enhance with and without it: http://i.imgur.com/IznNPM6.png/

Okay let's assume those numbers are representative. That's about an 8% increase even inside the burst window? Berserking lasts 10s with a 3 min cd, so that's like 5.5% uptime. Best case scenario, if you could time all the same CDs across every instance of Berserking, that's 5.5% x 8% = 0.4% DPS uplift.

And that's over nothing. If you're comparing it to other DPS racials, you have to subtract the % increase that THAT racial gives you.

It's pitiful.

Now maybe there are certain situations for certain classes with certain stats depending on unique fight mechanics or whatever where a racial really shines disproportionately more than others, but let's keep some perspective here. A lot of WoW players get over-excited about the "best" racial and imagine this translates to "amazing" damage somehow. It doesn't.

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More dps is more dps, that's what.

Getting better at the game and having a better racial are not mutually exclusive things. Why not improve yourself and have the best racial?

There is no such thing as being "drowned out". More dps is more dps; it's either there or its not.

You're obviously not even trying to understand the multiple examples I've given.

I understand perfectly, you're completely hung up on the fact that it theoretically sims as higher damage and are incapable of taking context and reward vs. effort into consideration.

Are the racials perfectly balanced? No. Would it be ideal if they were equalised or removed? Yeah sure. Are they a massive deal to the vast majority of players? No. Is it worth it for a non-world first raider to change races to get a better racial? Hell motherfucking no.

[Stolberg]

Okay let's assume those numbers are representative. That's about an 8% increase even inside the burst window? Berserking lasts 10s with a 3 min cd, so that's like 5.5% uptime. Best case scenario, if you could time all the same CDs across every instance of Berserking, that's 5.5% x 8% = 0.4% DPS uplift.

And that's over nothing. If you're comparing it to other DPS racials, you have to subtract the % increase that THAT racial gives you.

It's pitiful.

Now maybe there are certain situations for certain classes with certain stats depending on unique fight mechanics or whatever where a racial really shines disproportionately more than others, but let's keep some perspective here. A lot of WoW players get over-excited about the "best" racial and imagine this translates to "amazing" damage somehow. It doesn't.

As a Demonology Lock, it's an op racial.

But yea, I'm sorry, every top raiding player is wrong about it, please "Mormolyce" teach us.

[ImpTaimer]

Horde have more offensive racials.
Alliance have more defensive racials.

Been this way since the game came out.

They should be equalized though. This stupid meta crap is old.

[OrcsRLame]

Okay let's assume those numbers are representative. That's about an 8% increase even inside the burst window? Berserking lasts 10s with a 3 min cd, so that's like 5.5% uptime. Best case scenario, if you could time all the same CDs across every instance of Berserking, that's 5.5% x 8% = 0.4% DPS uplift.

And that's over nothing. If you're comparing it to other DPS racials, you have to subtract the % increase that THAT racial gives you.

It's pitiful.

Now maybe there are certain situations for certain classes with certain stats depending on unique fight mechanics or whatever where a racial really shines disproportionately more than others, but let's keep some perspective here. A lot of WoW players get over-excited about the "best" racial and imagine this translates to "amazing" damage somehow. It doesn't.

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I understand perfectly, you're completely hung up on the fact that it theoretically sims as higher damage and are incapable of taking context and reward vs. effort into consideration.

Are the racials perfectly balanced? No. Would it be ideal if they were equalised or removed? Yeah sure. Are they a massive deal to the vast majority of players? No. Is it worth it for a non-world first raider to change races to get a better racial? Hell motherfucking no.

Elaborate on the bolded statement please. It's not like it takes a great deal of effort to race change, or God forbid, choose that race at character creation.

I'm not hung up on anything. You're the one that's insistent that racials are useless, as you arbitrarily decide what is and isn't "worth it" for a non world first raider. On the topic of race changing, how is it even effort? It's not. It's money. If you're a broke ass motherfucker, (you probably shouldn't be playing wow) then sure, if it's a choice between eating that week and becoming a Troll huntard, you should probably go with eating. But what if you're a rich casual raider?

[Mormolyce]

As a Demonology Lock, it's an op racial.

But yea, I'm sorry, every top raiding player is wrong about it, please "Mormolyce" teach us.

Are YOU in a world first guild?

Don't know how many different ways I can say it, if you're not in a world first raiding guild then the differential isn't worth worrying about. If you are, well literally everything is worth worrying about.

P.S. EXACTLY how much of your DPS is that racial worth over a fight? Quantify it.

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You're the one that's insistent that racials are useless

-I didn't say that
-Missing the point.

[Stolberg]

Are YOU in a world first guild?

Don't know how many different ways I can say it, if you're not in a world first raiding guild then the differential isn't worth worrying about. If you are, well literally everything is worth worrying about.

P.S. EXACTLY how much of your DPS is that racial worth over a fight? Quantify it.

There's nothing to quantify. Frozendekay already wrote it down, most of it at least lol

do you think 1% hit is better than a 20% haste over 10 sec cd?

To illustrate how good berserking (troll racial) is for burst, this is a 20 second burst window for an enhance with and without it: http://i.imgur.com/IznNPM6.png/

This is in 5.3. Some classes benefit more from this because of DoTs (Demo locks gaining 3% overall dps on council for instance).

Now imagine a raid where half the dps are troll (pretty common) vs one with 0 trolls on a fight that requires a lot of burst - lets say something like Megaera on the last head, Durumu walls, Sha of Pride burn, Galakras p2, Dark Shaman 30% burn, Nazgrim zerker stance, Garrosh p3 or any fights with a high priority add. It gets stronger the shorter the burst window is and at worst is still as good or better than anything else

Anyways, it doesn't matter if someone is in a world first guild or not, it's free dps... it's there to take, you can either take that or roll a useless blood elf... or any other race in the Horde, that it would be equally useless in PvE. Apart from Pandaren and orcs.

[Frozendekay]

Now maybe there are certain situations for certain classes with certain stats depending on unique fight mechanics or whatever where a racial really shines disproportionately more than others, but let's keep some perspective here. A lot of WoW players get over-excited about the "best" racial and imagine this translates to "amazing" damage somehow. It doesn't.

Problem being that almost every fight has a point where burst matters. It shines on almost every fight, while at worst it's still better than any other racial for the majority of classes.

And no, we're not saying that it's an AMAZING dps increase all the time for everyone (although it certainly is beyond ridiculous in some situations). It's just enough that anyone looking for an advantage is going to take it - the increase it provides is not negligible.

[Static]

Once all the characters' new models are done and ready to be released to live servers, I wish there's a way Blizzard could implement that allows you to have something like uhm.. a 1 "Major" and 1 "Minor" choices of those talents and somehow attach them to your specific race. An example would be Jimmy who decided for his Tauren Druid main to have the Blood Fury racial (Major), as well as something like.. 1% damage reduction to Arcane spells (Minor). While on the other hand, Stan's main, a Human Priest, has the Berserker racial buff, as well as a 1% reduction to movement-impairing effect. Probably bad examples, but hopefully you get the main idea.

I do believe that this would require Blizzard to balance all the current racial talents with the introduction to the minor types of talents. Should Jimmy wants to change his existing racial talents, he could visit the in-game "Master of the Ways" NPC and pay a 500g for that to happen. I don't think this will hurt the races in terms of lore either, but I might be wrong. Heck the whole idea could be wrong.

[OrcsRLame]

Are YOU in a world first guild?

Don't know how many different ways I can say it, if you're not in a world first raiding guild then the differential isn't worth worrying about. If you are, well literally everything is worth worrying about.

P.S. EXACTLY how much of your DPS is that racial worth over a fight? Quantify it.

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-I didn't say that
-Missing the point.

What you have consistently failed to explain is how you have decided for all non world first raiders the world over that the difference in racials "isn't worth worrying about".

If I'm missing your point so badly why don't you explain it to me?

You may not have said in so many words that racials are useless, but you have claimed twice now that they're not worth worrying about if you're not in a world first guild. I doubt you would say the same about, for example, gems, so you must have a reason for thinking that, right? So as I said, explain it to me.

[Stolberg]

Once all the characters' new models are done and ready to be released to live servers, I wish there's a way Blizzard could implement that allows you to have something like uhm.. a 1 "Major" and 1 "Minor" choices of those talents and somehow attach them to your specific race. An example would be Jimmy who decided for his Tauren Druid main to have the Blood Fury racial (Major), as well as something like.. 1% damage reduction to Arcane spells (Minor). While on the other hand, Stan's main, a Human Priest, has the Berserker racial buff, as well as a 1% reduction to movement-impairing effect. Probably bad examples, but hopefully you get the main idea.

I do believe that this would require Blizzard to balance all the current racial talents with the introduction to the minor types of talents. Should Jimmy wants to change his existing racial talents, he could visit the in-game "Master of the Ways" NPC and pay a 500g for that to happen. I don't think this will hurt the races in terms of lore either, but I might be wrong. Heck the whole idea could be wrong.

Of course it would hurt the lore... Why would a Human have a berserker racial? LOL the same with Taurens with Blood Fury.

And also, can you let us know about your armory, Mormolyce?

[Tomana]

Yes, horde holy paladins get such awsum racials. Oh wait no
I'd trade arcane torrent for EMFH and 3% spirit any day.

[Mormolyce]

There's nothing to quantify. Frozendekay already wrote it down, most of it at least lol

do you think 1% hit is better than a 20% haste over 10 sec cd?

And like I pointed out above, his numbers if true translate to 0.4% of DPS. I thought you were saying the numbers were different for a Demo lock?

The fact that you can't even quantify the DPS gain throws your entire argument into question, don't you think? Don't you think it's strange that you're so convinced that it's a massive DPS gain and yet you don't actually know how big a DPS gain it is?

Anyways, it doesn't matter if someone is in a world first guild or not, it's free dps... it's there to take, you can either take that or roll a useless blood elf... or any other race in the Horde, that it would be equally useless in PvE. Apart from Pandaren and orcs.

No shit it's there. Does that mean casual players are forced to faction change just to play the game? Nope.

Problem being that almost every fight has a point where burst matters. It shines on almost every fight, while at worst it's still better than any other racial for the majority of classes.

And no, we're not saying that it's an AMAZING dps increase all the time for everyone (although it certainly is beyond ridiculous in some situations). It's just enough that anyone looking for an advantage is going to take it - the increase it provides is not negligible.

True, but burst is not something Blizzard even balances across classes. Remember Spine progression? KIN raiders got the world first by stacking their raid with Mages and Rogues. There are bigger problems than racials if you're worried about burst DPS.

I'd say 0.4% is well within my definition of negligible, considering my DPS varies by more like 5% from pull to pull.

If you're a world first raider then maybe it's reasonable that 0.4% is not negligible. But they are INSANE.

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What you have consistently failed to explain is how you have decided for all non world first raiders the world over that the difference in racials "isn't worth worrying about".

If I'm missing your point so badly why don't you explain it to me?

You may not have said in so many words that racials are useless, but you have claimed twice now that they're not worth worrying about if you're not in a world first guild. I doubt you would say the same about, for example, gems, so you must have a reason for thinking that, right? So as I said, explain it to me.

Don't know why it's so complicated, if you're not a world first raider then 0.5%-1% DPS is not worth worrying about. I thought this would be self-evident.

Also indicates you're far too focused on things like racials, when the real gap between you and those world first raiders is fight execution and skill with your class. Racials are nothing next to that gap. If you want to play on their level, racials are the least of your concerns.

[Stolberg]

Well, explaining it again, I'm reforging out of all pieces that give hit to anything else and I'm still at 16%+. after 2/3 patches of raiding over an expansion you have enough hit that even a 1% stamina racial would be more useful... also, the point that you don't know the meaning of burst is incredible, if you knew the meaning of it, you'd know the importance of a 20% haste buff.

Did you start playing yesterday or something?

I never stated that you need to faction change to troll to play the game.

We aren't discussing the faction changing thing here, just that the troll's racial is overpowered compared to any other racial. The only ones that can even compare are orc's and pandaren's.

So, if you can do around 200k dps with any other race, a 0.5% increase on that, would lead you to do 210k dps. I think that's a pretty good increase, not sure about you... if you are calculating on a 50k dps basis, yea... it wouldn't mean a thing.

[Keoren]

I'd say 0.4% is well within my definition of negligible

On the other hand, why does there have to be a gap?

[Frozendekay]

True, but burst is not something Blizzard even balances across classes. Remember Spine progression? KIN raiders got the world first by stacking their raid with Mages and Rogues. There are bigger problems than racials if you're worried about burst DPS.

The point here is that class stacking is available to everyone - burst is imbalanced but thats kinda OK because it's the exact same for every guild. Racials are not, only 1 faction has the possibility of having an advantage.

Not sure where you're getting 0.4% from either - it was 8% over a 20 second window when it lasts 10. It's very close to 1%, and much, much more than that in certain situations (think ambershaper burn or magmaw, where important damage is concentrated into a small window that magnifies the effect). Guilds that aren't world first struggle with dps checks as well - we're barely in US top 20 for 25 man guilds and would have loved Berserking on Horridon, Durumu, Lei Shen, etc.

[Jester Joe]

Don't know why it's so complicated, if you're not a world first raider then 0.5%-1% DPS is not worth worrying about. I thought this would be self-evident.

Also indicates you're far too focused on things like racials, when the real gap between you and those world first raiders is fight execution and skill with your class. Racials are nothing next to that gap. If you want to play on their level, racials are the least of your concerns.

If this was true, then you'd also be able to apply it to
1) Talents
2) Specs (within reason)

But as Ghostcrawler has said before, even the heroic raiders that aren't "World Firsts" will push for advantages they can get (He says this almost every time some talent is brought up, or a spec underperforming the rest, like buffing it too much and everyone will pick it/reroll that spec), like "Server First", which actually gets a guild FoS (World First only gives a Server First as far as I know at least, too lazy to look it up).

I'm pretty sure there's tons of people out there also that care about just having the top DPS, even if their guild/raid group doesn't push for it, they just like playing to do the top DPS in their raid group.

[Thelxi]

Well, when the game first came out alliance as a faction was noticeably more popular than horde. It wasn't until after blood elves and horde paladins that the factions balanced out.

I think that Blizzard doesn't mind minor unfairness like horde racials and AV map as long as it results in general faction balance. Maybe they think that if they change things factions might fall out of balance again.