Should PvP gear be equal to PvE gear ilvl wise?

[arizonapriest93]

Hello I've been pondering curiously lately about the PvP gear and the PvE gear ilvl differences, my mage, I pve on, has a incredibly high ilvl compared to my hunter on whom I pvp on. While both are in their top of the line gear for each gameplay style I still am not 100% sure on why the ilvl is so stupidly different. Yes I understand that it's to "prevent players from taking pvp gear into pve" but I don't think anyone looks at pvp gear as replacement to pve gear, to me its a supplement of the gearing up process (I have a few alts :P). Poor luck on a ring drop? Buy some W's replace that 450 or w/e with a 496. Which oh by the way I'll replace, if going to pve route as assume in this example, with a 502 in lfr...

Yes in the reality of it in instanced PvP, the stuff that matters, all gear is "equal" and those extra ilvls don't mean much. I remember though, when I started playing seeing players in high end gear, easily depicted by health (no this isn't how I judge characters but its quite fair imo to judge gear by the amount of health one has, typically a solid relation). Seeing PvE characters with 500k-550k health in their heroic gear compared to the top of the pvp world which runs around 400-440k (excluding locks). I just feel its silly, in addition I feel weaker just because I only have pvp gear on my one toon when I do other tasks, not that it matters much but why can't I have gear above the previous tiers ilvl just because I pvp? It feels silly and an unimaginative solution. While I do not have any strong ideas myself I was wondering what the community thought and if they had ideas, so the purpose of this thread, I hope, would be to spark creative ideas to solve this issue. While it's too late in the patch cycle for anything to happen, you never know and besides who doesn't like a good discussion.

[meathead]

yes both pvp and pve gear should be the same item level,just itemized different.all wow has to do is copy rifts gear boosting and call it a day.do not allow any pve gear in instanced pvp and do not allow any pvp gear in instanced pve.if a player enters say AV wearing any type of pve gear,that gear get replaced by the starter/crafted pvp set.do the same for pvp geared players trying to get into instanced pve and bingo problem solved.out in the world there would be no boosting but since both pvp and pve gear is same IL,pvp without question would be best for pvp.

this fix is so simple yet it fixes all kinds of problems but yet blizz refuses to do it,it makes no since at all.it would even work as a base res for un geared players jumping into instanced pvp.

[ComputerNerd]

The solution is never that simple.
The fact remains that the gear and opponent progression in both is considerably different.
PvE allows gearing up in appropriate level content vs appropriately difficulty opponents.
PvP does not.

How do you determine what is comparable item to switch out for pve items that have no pvp equivalent.
How do you deem it fair to land someone with a downgrade.

[Kreeshak]

The counter-argument - not that I support it - is that PVE gear is harder to obtain than PVP gear. With PVP participation being at record lows, potentially raising the PVP item level and making it harder to acquire, would alienate casual players. Raising the item level while being that easy to acquire would alienate the PVErs.

My personal opinion is that both the PVPer and the PVEer should have gear progression for the duration of the current patch. Wow has always been about that and I know plenty of people that quit between patches and PVP seasons. That said capping item level in either PVE or PVP directly hurts that progression that I mentioned.

[mistahwilshire]

Unless it becomes itemized differently to not be on par in PvE then it really can't be the same ilvl. Getting heroic raid quality pieces by spamming BGs would be silly.

[Faesroll]

PvP gear is a lot easier to come by and would force PvErs to pvp.

[arizonapriest93]

PvP gear is a lot easier to come by and would force PvErs to pvp.

How would it force PvErs to PvP? Thats my question for you.

I don't think it should be equal to Heroic gear, heroic raiding is difficult for a reason, not just your average scrub is getting that gear unless they're dumping insane amounts of gold to buy carry runs. I think it should be around normal to normal tf about, a middleground between those two. I feel that the gear should be around the same general area ilvl wise. I think normal ilvl is an acceptable area because quite frankly normals aren't too terribly difficult and can be expected to be cleared by your average guild (average there are always those on the outside) in about the same time it takes a PvPer to get a full set of PvP gear. While yes you can clear a raid for weeks and not get full BiS or the idealized pieces for you, so upgrades, chances are you'll most likely get loot however I do understand the frustrations with that process (I've been there).

With the new Flex raid mode incoming I feel it should definitely be at least higher than flex. I absolutely think it should be higher than lfr and the fact that it isn't currently is frustrating. I understand the situation that may arise that is simply lfr's going after pvp gear, which honestly should be unoptimal. I think there is a simple solution around this, somehow make it so perhaps PvP power while increasing your damage to player targets reduces damage done to Raid bosses (maybe lfr/flex only?) by X% or a debuff that scales in accordance to how much pvp gear you have equiped that makes it so you do X less damage against raid bosses. That's an idea and obviously not fully hashed out. I say potentially only lfr/flex because those two modes are notably geared toward "lower-tiered" players (you know what I mean by this). In normal mode and heroic there is a GM/RL moderating their team, if they want to bring in a player with pvp gear that should be their choice, that's why I feel normal and heroic should obviously be excluded from that (if you're doing heroic I feel in rare situations you're going to use pvp gear anyhow, typically in alt gearing/main swaps).

Thats my idea for it, so essentially

Tl;Dr PvP gear I feel should be stronger than Flex and around par with normal mode gear ilvl wise (obviously PvE for PvE etc) and that potentially a debuff/pvp power adjustment to reduce damage done to bosses modified per piece of pvp gear (no penalty for 1-2 pieces, increasing after that until X% met after 8 pieces?) in only LFR and Flex raiding modes. In Normal/Heroic a GM/RL can decide if they'll take a player in PvP gear.

[RenegadeXan]

They said ''oh who cares for world pvp'' but they forgot every scrubs in heroics gear also duel with having 150k more hp then you, totally noting wrong with that.

[Gardrenn]

PvP gear should be the same ilvl as PvE gear. The PvE gear is going up way too fast and needs to be brought down to PvP ilvl. Just drop boss damage and health to compensate.

[Lanthanum]

They said ''oh who cares for world pvp'' but they forgot every scrubs in heroics gear also duel with having 150k more hp then you, totally noting wrong with that.

Because duelling is serious business right...

[Verain]

They said ''oh who cares for world pvp'' but they forgot every scrubs in heroics gear also duel with having 150k more hp then you, totally noting wrong with that.

There are scrubs in heroic gear?



To the OP:

Under the current model, HELL NO.


But, the current model mostly sucks.


What they did was turn item level into "PvE item level". A PvE 483 is just as good as a PvP 483 right now, but only in PvE. The PvP piece is vastly superior in PvP. This has lead to dumb shit like:
522 gear upgraded to 530 is PvE.
496 gear with no upgrades allowed is PvP.

This is a HUGE difference. And it is way before you start talking about 535 heroic gear upgraded to 543.

I think the real issue is that they decided that honor gear has to be bad enough that it can't even LET you into LFR by itself. All the PvP item levels seem to have been extrapolated around this absurd and stupid goal.

Other approaches I recommend to the devs include:
> Force attunement for LFR.
> Put PvP Power as a secondary stat in the budget. Count PvP gear as a lower item level when queuing for PvP.
> Just stop fucking caring holy shit it is LFR get over yourselves have you even BEEN in one?


But as it is right now, no, they can't do equal item levels.



Here is the actual solution, by the way:

1)- Eliminate hard caps, such as the useless hit and expertise. These values are useful in pen and paper games- a fighter will probably have a 110% chance to hit you with his first hit (capped at 95%), his second hit that round will be 85%, his third will be 60%. Adding a 5% to all these numbers means that his second and third hit got more valuable. A lower level character might have a 60% chance to hit period, and adding 5% to that is also valuable. No one in WoW is willing to deal with that- only white hits are allowed to do that. So make the base accuracy on raid boss 100%, with do house-sized bosses "dodging" at all.

2)- A UI element allows you to downgrade yourself AS IF YOU WERE IN: A challenge mode. A raid. A battleground. You can then reforge your stats if you were looking to meet a soft cap (such as haste).

3)- ALL items get downgraded to a certain item level in PvP instances, just like on live. PvP items are never exempt in any way from this downgrading.

4)- PvP items have a higher item level by comparison than they do now. In the current world, shitty PvP items are 476, good ones are 496, LFR is 502, real raids is 522, and good raids is 535. So in this world, PvP items would be like 516.

5)- PvP items are downgraded in instanced PvE to something approximating their level of difficulty of achievement. Gearing conquest is a grindy joke with just enough skill required that bots can't do it effectively. Gearing PvE- even LFR- is probably harder than getting a set of conquest, because you rely on random drops. Gearing real PvE is MUCH harder than gearing PvP. PvP players don't have gear differentiation based on skill. PvE players definitely do. So, the 516 gear becomes 502 or 496 when you zone into a raid, dungeon, or scenario.


Please don't confuse my statements in #5 with things like "PvP takes no skill" or something. Obviously, PvP takes skill. But a PvPer who is skilled and active won't just have decent gear- he'll have a GOOD RATING. Rating is what PvPers *compete* for. The gear is there to gate it a bit, but by midseason everyone who is playing and cares is in about the same gear, while raid item levels are all over the map, and you can and will get RNG screwed. I still have a guy in my raid who is missing a heroic weapon after all this time, for instance, but no one who has been in arena is missing their conquest weapon.

[Mican17]

The differences in HP are indeed pretty ridiculous. I feel massively gimped when fighting people in full raid gear when they have 100k+ more hp than I do, not to mention the damage... This pretty much discourages me from dueling and world pvp.