Garrosh took child prisoners from Theramore

[Aquamonkey]

Didn't Dave or someone say Garrosh was at least consistent in not hurting civilians? This bit is *slightly* contradictory with that.

Kosak just said that Garrosh wouldn't waste a nuke on civilians.

[seije]

(Copied my post from another thread, because Alliance v. Horde debates are tiring, everything gets repeated hundreds of times, and i don't want to type out all my arguments again.)

"Seriously, how can Alliance players not be happy about killing Garrosh?"

We are happy about killing Garrosh. What we're not happy about is the fact that thus far, blizzard has implied that despite the position it leaves the horde in (re: not good) the alliance gains nothing tangible after losing so much after the previous expansions. (Turning alliance zones into contested zones is fine if they needed to even out the levelling experience across factions, but why is it that those contested zones always seemed to end in horde victory? where's the zones that the horde push in, fail, and are routed again?)

"Do you really believe you would take orgrimmar?"

Of course not. But I would expect at least some spoils of war after our rival faction collapses in on itself and we have to help pick up the pieces. I think it's a bit ridiculous that it took the Alliance fanbase complaining about this fact for blizzard to realize that maybe they should start planning out some reparations for the Alliance, and even then, they came up with reasons(excuses?) on why they probably won't.

How would you feel if the horde took stormwind, or placed a floating fortress over it?

Depends, prior to said raid, do we get an expansion of us kicking horde ass all over the place and stealing land out from under them, followed by a storyline where Varian goes batshit crazy and as a result, several of our other faction leaders step up and have some interesting plot development for their characters? And afterwards, the horde leaves with nothing but the warm fuzzies and a "Chin-Slayer" Title?

People forget that Vanilla was all about alliance, that the changes in some zones ownership was made to balance leveling zone number of both factions.

The Onyxia quest chain was the one questline that favored Alliance, and paladins (due to unforseen balance issues) were better for raiding. Yes, the Alliance also had more questing zones. I was completely fine with the horde getting more questing zones in cata, but as i said in my first point, why did the horde have to win in every zone they invaded? Why couldn't the alliance see some victories in their levelling experience?

So why should you win things that were given to the horde so things were balanced?

Because they didn't have to be 'given' to the horde to achieve that balance, and taking them away also does not have to upset that balance. that's why Phasing was so nice, you can lose a zone as you quest through it, but those quests still got you through the zone, and got you your needed exp to move on. It worked fine for all the alliance quest hubs, so why not horde?

All alliance wants is unbalance again.

False. We want equal attention, and a reason to feel pride in our faction as the horde does.

In fact i would be much more proud if i was an alliance player, then i'm as a horde one right now.

"THEN PERHAPS YOU SHOULD REROLL! LOLOLOL!1!!!!1one!1!one." Shitty advice, right? that's how we feel when all the horde players tell us to reroll if we want a good story. "Grass is always greener," perhaps. But in this case, i see many more horde saying alliance are correct to be upset than i see alliance saying we're fine and to stop the qq.

Being right, doing what is good, is a good thing, it something to feel proud about.

Except this is a game, and you don't get a sense of self-fulfillment because the developers forced you to take the higher road. Especially when revenge would bethe sweeter reward.

If i was alliance player i would completely vote for leaving orgrimmar when the siege ends, and give it back to the orcs. First because not doing so would cause another war on the spot, and more casualities, in a territory where they have advantage, since they have Thunderbluff near to give then support.

Except the revolutionaries are supposed to be the underdog. Realistically, the alliance could crush the remaining revolutionaries and be even further ahead. And if thunder bluff had any reinforcements to spare, why weren't they seiging Orgrimmar with the rest of the revolutionaries? Protection from a surprise attack? How could they then afford to leave if such a threat is still exists?

I'm not saying the Alliance WOULD do this, but merely to point out that the horde are in no position to negotiate, and it is rather foolish of Varian to demand NOTHING of his long-time enemies. (but again, we don't know what's happening after SoO. So maybe this plot-point will be rectified.)

Remember alliance is only being able to take orgrimmar, because Thunderbluff is not helping ogrimmar, and because the rebels are against garrosh too, if it wasn't for that alliance would have their ass handed to them like the last time.

And once again, this goes to show how biased the story is towards horde. How can the full might of the Alliance be so weak that they can't even deal with a fraction of the horde? How are Alliance players supposed to feel pride in their faction if what you claim is true?

And second because giving it back to the Orcs would show superiority, honor, and desire to meet then at the battlefield in a fair and proud way when the time for battle comes again.

The last time the actual Alliance and Horde armies (not the players, but the armies) 'worked together,' the horde betrayed the alliance and got a great many Alliance soldiers dead or scourged. Ever hear the old saying "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me?" What reason does the Alliance have to trust the horde? How can the Alliance be so sure that giving the orcs back their city isn't a mistake that will come back to bite them?

Simple thinking about taking orgrimmar would end enslaving orcs again, and we know where this story ends right? This would be the worse possible way to solve this.

there's also the other option, proposed at the end of the second war, killing all the orcs instead. Don't have to fight what doesn't exist, right? Although I suppose with Sylvannas, that could come back to bite them. Maybe just exile them to Draenor... Ooh! I've got an idea! Orcs are all about honor, right? Offer each orc the option to swear loyalty to the Alliance! A race so bent on honor would be hard-pressed to break an oath!

All silly ideas, of course. But potentially just as silly as letting them do whatever the hell they want, which could possibly include re-arming and coming back for blood. Again. the point is, no option is particularly great, but as far as options with the Alliance's intrests at heart, they could do a whole lot better than giving the city back to the Orcs, no strings attached. (and to protect myself from being misquoted, this is all from a lore-standpoint. i don't actually believe Horde players should suddenly have to serve the alliance, nor do i think the orcs new starting zone should be nagrand.)

For the Alliance the best thing they can do is open diplomatic channels with the Horde, and try to establish more mutual agreements, create some peace time, and let the conflicts for the future.

Agreed, but a peace offering from the horde's new regime might do wonders to show that they appreciate what the alliance did to aid them. Withdrawing from certain territories, perhaps?

Either that or go on an all out war against the rebels on their land, plus the Forsaken to backstab then, now free of the Kor'Kron, and the Tauren there.

Except that the alliance is right there, and because any reinforcements are spread out, they would be running in one by one bad-kung-fu-movie style, and get slaughtered by a larger, prepared force. And if those reinforcements didn't rush right there to retaliate, it'd give the alliance all the time they need to retreat/escape (which is probably around a few seconds, knowing Jaina and her mass-teleport that can pick out friend from foe, and warp you across hemispheres as demonstrated in the Siege of Undercity).

Remember that Wrathion assumes it would take roughly ONE YEAR for the combined forces of the alliance, with orgrimmar TAKEN, and the rebels siding enslaved, to even fully take Thunder Bluff.

The tauren are more level-headed and likely to compromise than the orcs or trolls. Through diplomacy, the Alliance may not need to siege TB. And honestly, if it came to that, it seems that it would be after a bad turn of events during negotiations after SoO rather than the Alliance trying to backstab the rebels. And that in itself could lead to more willingness to communicate, especially considering Baine's relationship with Jaina and Anduin.

[Deleted]

^^^^^^^^^^^
The one post to fuck them all.

[MikeBogina]

With respect to the Alliance/Alliance races and zones in general? Gilneas/Hillsbrad/Theramore/Western Plaguelands and a few other places here and there. The rebalancing of zones did not necessitate Horde victories, despite that having been a consequence.

Since the balancing of Cata of course, they've been less keen to demonstrate Horde victories so blatantly; but SoO is the perfect example of a Horde 'defeat' that isn't really a 'defeat' at all, given that it's not the 'Horde' losing in SoO but rather, big bad Garrosh and his big bad Kor'kron cronies.

So no victories then? Good.


I just wanna point out that Horde has lost all of their gunships while Alliance seem to never lose any... and those are flying fortresses.

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^^^^^^^^^^^
The one post to fuck them all.

I started reading till i got to the part "We" and then decided it wasn't worth a read. :/

[Aquamonkey]

(Turning alliance zones into contested zones is fine if they needed to even out the levelling experience across factions, but why is it that those contested zones always seemed to end in horde victory? where's the zones that the horde push in, fail, and are routed again?)

Both Shatterspear bases were destroyed in Darkshore.

The Horde ships in Zoram'gar Outpost are on fire, derelict, and blocked in by Alliance ships.

Forsaken get pushed out of Gilneas.

Forsaken are forced to retreat from Fenris Keep.

[Arganis]

Blizzard is really trying to hard to make us hate and kill Garrosh....

This.

I guess when you have no decent ideas to make your audience dislike a character then it's time to use 'the children'.

All this would have been a lot more interesting if the horde had been forced to do Garrosh's evil bidding for a couple x-pacs, then it would make some sense and might actually feel good to take him down but instead it's all been essentially pc bullshit until now because this game is rated T for Terminal. Couldn't actually cause any of the players discomfort by making Garrosh the real psychopath they intended him to be. Instead he was a 'rawr' leader who turned into a total lunatic overnight.

[seije]

I started reading till i got to the part "We" and then decided it wasn't worth a read. :/

I can smell your fear.

If you're looking for an actual logical debate instead of 'whining,' seriously, give it a read. i promise i'm not a frothing alliance fanboy (well, PERHAPS i am, but not to the point of ignoring logic), and most of my points that ARE exaggerated, i do so to prove a point, and even point it out at the end of that section.


Besides, if there's ever going to be peace between the horde and alliance, it's going to have to start with communication!

[FoShizzleMyGrizzle]

Cant say I really agree with taking the children, altho its a game..still. Garrosh is the badguy here, lets go kill him and we'll have a good time in the next expansions (prob not, cus hes like Jason...never freaking dies)

[Austilias]

Both Shatterspear bases were destroyed in Darkshore.

The Horde ships in Zoram'gar Outpost are on fire, derelict, and blocked in by Alliance ships.

Forsaken get pushed out of Gilneas.

Forsaken are forced to retreat from Fenris Keep.

Shatterspear were barely Horde to begin with.

The Horde achieve an overall victory in Ashenvale, whatever happened in Zoram'gar Outpost.

The Forsaken leave Gilneas; but not before ruining the city with blight. At best, you can call it a draw; though given that the Worgen/Gilneans are in essence gone, it's a victory for the Forsaken more than anything.

Fenris Keep wasn't exactly prime territory to begin with; an abandoned keep in the middle of a lake that was occupied by a few humans who wasted little time in becoming Worgen. What few remained were, if I recall correctly, blown to pieces in the water as they tried to swim away.

[Aquamonkey]

What if Varian supposedly leaves without any demands because Sylvanas takes the Theramore children hostage.

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Fenris Keep wasn't exactly prime territory to begin with; an abandoned keep in the middle of a lake that was occupied by a few humans who wasted little time in becoming Worgen. What few remained were, if I recall correctly, blown to pieces in the water as they tried to swim away.

They weren't trying to swim away, they were swimming out to attack the Forsaken. The Forsaken never went back into Fenris Keep to finish the job.

"Though you killed a large number of the newly turned worgen, many more are sure to appear. Still, their assault will have softened. Well done, <name>!"

[Austilias]

They weren't trying to swim away, they were swimming out to attack the Forsaken. The Forsaken never went back into Fenris Keep to finish the job.

"Though you killed a large number of the newly turned worgen, many more are sure to appear. Still, their assault will have softened. Well done, <name>!"

Even so, it's a largely inconsequential piece of land to gain, never mind lose. In-game it is a largely run-down ruin, and the Forsaken control the entirety of the lands surrounding it; so there's little to no hope of ever receiving supplies or fortifying it to any considerable/significant degree.

[Deleted]

And yet people are still complaining MoP is too silly / whimsical / childish.

This is by far the most violent era of the game, as far as what is actually depicted.

This.

/10chars

[Deleted]

Garrosh Fritzl

[rebecca191]

Southshore really should have been destroyed by a wave like blizz said early on in development. It sucked seeing a mostly civilian town get destroyed in such an awful way, and on top of not being able to get any revenge, no Alliance NPCs even seem to notice it happened except one in Arathi I think. Too bad we couldn't at least get a victory there and get Stromgarde.

[seije]

Both Shatterspear bases were destroyed in Darkshore.

The shatterspear tribe was neutral until Cataclysm. I know this because i played a druid, and i saw their village every time i flew from Moonglade back to Darnassus. I even wall-jumped my way there and partied with them. Even the wowwiki doesn't specify that they are definitly horde (it says 'apparently' in the article, based on reaction status, although there could easily be other reasons for this). Also, this 'loss' is not experienced in the horde questing.

The Horde ships in Zoram'gar Outpost are on fire, derelict, and blocked in by Alliance ships.

Just because the base is blockaded, does not imply it's an automatic loss. Burning ships can be rebuilt. Overall, the outpost is better off from its position pre-cataclysm: "After the Cataclysm, the Horde reinforced and expanded the outpost, and it now looks more akin to the orcish holds in Northrend." Taken from the wiki.

Forsaken get pushed out of Gilneas.

I'll give you this one, but on the other side of things, though the horde feels this defeat, the alliance doesn't feel this victory, which is the other half of the problem.

Forsaken are forced to retreat from Fenris Keep.

Silverpine is Horde territory, not contested. And (like shatterspear village) isn't really intended as content for the opposite faction. So, like Gilneas, the alliance does not feel this victory. I do have a question, though. Is there any negative phasing regarding this location after questing? And does the quest completion text actually mention retreat? I ask because the only quests i can find about this place on WoWhead are killing 10 scouts, and then destroying another 50 worgen with a cannon, which doesn't put me in the mind of retreat.

Edit: "Though you killed a large number of the newly turned worgen, many more are sure to appear. Still, their assault will have softened. Well done, <name>!" sounds more like it's merely a front that must be watched. It's a stalemate, not a retreat.

[Aquamonkey]

The shatterspear tribe was neutral until Cataclysm. I know this because i played a druid, and i saw their village every time i flew from Moonglade back to Darnassus. I even wall-jumped my way there and partied with them. Even the wowwiki doesn't specify that they are definitly horde (it says 'apparently' in the article, based on reaction status, although there could easily be other reasons for this). Also, this 'loss' is not experienced in the horde questing.

WoWwiki is pretty shit, that site is hardly updated and short on citations.

When you finish Ending the Threat, you find [Hellscream's Missive]:
"The letter from Garrosh Hellscream makes clear the suspicions that were raised during the offensive on the Shatterspear. The presence of forsaken at the tower ruins and horde supplies and enforcers at the Shatterspear War Camp were only the start. Garrosh himself contacted the Shatterspear to spur their offensive towards Lor'danel, and it seems clear that he fully intends to push from the south as well."

Silverpine is Horde territory, not contested. And (like shatterspear village) isn't really intended as content for the opposite faction. So, like Gilneas, the alliance does not feel this victory. I do have a question, though. Is there any negative phasing regarding this location after questing? And does the quest completion text actually mention retreat? I ask because the only quests i can find about this place on WoWhead are killing 10 scouts, and then destroying another 50 worgen with a cannon, which doesn't put me in the mind of retreat.

Edit: "Though you killed a large number of the newly turned worgen, many more are sure to appear. Still, their assault will have softened. Well done, <name>!" sounds more like it's merely a front that must be watched. It's a stalemate, not a retreat.

The retreat is from a previous quest when the Forsaken try to take the keep.

Maleb and the other members of the leadership grabs a vial of worgen blood and promptly drinks it, turning them into worgen.
Agatha says: Run...!
Agatha says: RUN!
Agatha grabs you and flies you out of the keep while worgen attempts to kill Agatha.

[Airwaves]

Shatterspear were barely Horde to begin with.

The Horde achieve an overall victory in Ashenvale, whatever happened in Zoram'gar.

The shatterspear were reinforced with the horde army. They were 100% part of the horde at that point.

Also the alliance won the battle for Ashenvale in wolf heart.

[moremana]

Seriously? That's a little sadistic. Seriously man. I mean...I can be sadistic when I write but...I don't believe I can cross that line.

roflmao

The children were put on a boat so wth?

[Cosmic Janitor]

I know it is impolite to put it that way, but I don't want to sift through so many pages of comments, hence I ask it simply:

Is all we have a single line of some random npc in a cage here? If so it is highly inconsistent. In the book the whole civilian populus should have been on the first ship that went out. There is also the possibility that "children" does not refer to actual kids, because parents have the bad habit of calling their children such no matter what age. The very notion that they retconned PoW's in now is so hamfisted anyway, I don't see how they would have actually got their hands on any of these during the theramore campaign, because the way the fight is pictured they were besieging the town and the actual front lines was a mess where no one would take a PoW (not sure if this is a valid abreviation, just don't want to type out prisoner of war all the time).

For some time I have the feeling now that the lines of some npcs are written by random secretary #52 or janitor #3, with out talking to lore guys if these statements actually make sense.

[Gelannerai]

The shatterspear were reinforced with the horde army. They were 100% part of the horde at that point.

Also the alliance won the battle for Ashenvale in wolf heart.

I was under the impression that Wolfheart happened before the in-game version of Ashenvale, and that the Horde simply regrouped and attacked again.