Holy Paladin 5.4

[Skulldancer]

Nazgrim's Burnished Insignia.... Thoughts?

[mofobagins]

I would like to know the answer to Skullcrusher's question as well. I got the Nazgrim;s trinket and I would be replacing the shadowpan assault rep trinket with it but I do not know if it better. I am hesitant to lose the static int from the rep trinket and the Nazgrim's trinket only does about 2.5% of my healing when i use it.

[Deleted]

I personally do not think the trinket is that good. I would keep the Shadowpan Trinket. Whilst Nazgrims might 'sim' for higher, in real situations Int procs are not that great as RNG is pretty crap for healing. You'll have some fights where it'll only ever proc during times where you need barely any healing (and its not like you can use EF anymore to increase shields greatly during those lul periods) and the proc isn't so good only doing 2.5-3% extra healing with a decent risk of overheal.

[Deleted]

I'd stick with the SP trinket as well, it does its jobs at least while your waiting for something better to drop. The nazgrim trinket however will most likely give your the most random results ever. Its awful in spread healing situation and while the proc is actually pretty good its still better to rely on a regen+ fix int stat that something that will give you unreliable results most of the time.

[Deleted]

Hey
somebody of you testet int vs mastery gemming ~14k spirit ca. In SoO heroic?
Pls only 25 man

Or what u think about SH/mastery vs. EF/int/mastery?

[nightfalls]

Since we're no longer in PTR, I wanted to start a thread where we can post our current status.

After a week of normals and a few beginning heroics, my main concern is our total lack of raid utility and especially DPS utility (this brings us back to "raid cooldown status" discussion, only now "raid utility status"). When you are looking at 4 or even 3 healing fights such as Norushen (especially) and other DPS check fights (Malkorok in the future will come into mind), healer DPS and to a lesser extent raid utility will begin to matter more than ever.

• Priest: Easily the highest healing and DPS. In stacked groups, Divine Star is obscene right now. When purely DPS'ing Atonement and Level 90 talents alone will do a lot of passive healing easily allowing for almost a complete DPS rotation with corresponding throughput.
• Monk: Can DPS very well with eminence healing, though throughput suffers since Uplifts are no longer used. However during "burst" situations the monk can easily throttle and add extra healing when needed and go back to DPS in lulls.
• Druid: Can DPS with either DoC or Heart of the Wild, not as good as the above options.
• Shaman: Primary source of damage is Fire Elemental (at a healing loss). Assuming that Primal Fire Elemental is not used to DPS, Shaman are probably the second worst right now. However, among utility they are one of the top (Ancestral Vigor which is unique to Resto), stacked healing throughput is ridiculous. Shaman raid healing cooldowns (which are more important when underhealing) are unique to Resto and among the best in game. Also we cannot forget Stormlash. While that seems silly, Stormlash contributes non-trivial raid DPS.
• Paladin: Zero DPS outside of Judgment (if Selfless Healer) and Level 90 talent. Zero options for adding DPS: Denounce both sacrifices healing (no conversion compared to Priest/Monk/DoC Wrath) and significant mana (compared to Atonement which is very low mana with 5x Evangelism, and HotW Wrath). Offensive Holy Shocks (with Glyph) are laughably ineffective and sacrifice extreme amounts of healing and Daybreak, and ability to throttle (since glyph reduces HS healing as well).

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As a point of comparison, when looking at Norushen attempts tonight, average DPS able to be pulled would be among the following (since we are berserking, after all why else would we really care, these are all over 7 minutes):

Priest: 30 million with nearly full throughput.
Monk: 30 million with ~60% throughput (roughly).
Druid: ~8 million with Heart of the Wild followed by full throughput.
Shaman: None, except then we must remember that Stormlash contributes to raid DPS and can be used twice. Stormlash total: ~ 8 million (equal to druid). Full throughput.
Paladin: ~2 million with Judgment and Holy Prism. If I had switched to Light's Hammer the number would be even lower. If I switched to Eternal Flame (from SH) that number would be zero ("0").

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While the main concern (the lower damage healers will do about 0.5% of the boss health which can be the difference between kill/wipe however) are Priests and Monks primarily, I think that these situations just exacerbate total inability of Paladins to contribute even any meaningful DPS while healing.

Yes, with druids and shamans 5 times zero may still be (roughly, but not exactly) zero, but the fact is that right now we are dead last in this ability to contribute. We have no options to DPS with healing recovery or with mana conservation (denounce costs a nontrivial mp5 to cast). We have little raid utility to compensate, compared to resto shamans.

[Andyo]

It's also depressing how much of the raid wide damage is physical.

[Lorilaith]

After a week of normals and a few beginning heroics, my main concern is our total lack of raid utility and especially DPS utility (this brings us back to "raid cooldown status" discussion, only now "raid utility status"). When you are looking at 4 or even 3 healing fights such as Norushen (especially) and other DPS check fights (Malkorok in the future will come into mind), healer DPS and to a lesser extent raid utility will begin to matter more than ever.

-snip-

While the main concern (the lower damage healers will do about 0.5% of the boss health which can be the difference between kill/wipe however) are Priests and Monks primarily, I think that these situations just exacerbate total inability of Paladins to contribute even any meaningful DPS while healing.

Yes, with druids and shamans 5 times zero may still be (roughly, but not exactly) zero, but the fact is that right now we are dead last in this ability to contribute. We have no options to DPS with healing recovery or with mana conservation (denounce costs a nontrivial mp5 to cast). We have little raid utility to compensate, compared to resto shamans.

I agree with all of this, we're severely lacking in certain areas that all the other classes bring in some way, i.e. spread healing, topping the raid up after physical damage/or negating it and dps from ourselves but we can also still generally keep up with the other healing classes throughput wise (bar druids who seem god like now), we do need a toolkit rework but we can still compete when it comes to our job at the end of the day (keeping the raid alive)

[Kerfax]

So after raid last night I think I have a more definitive opinion on what I'll be doing for gearing. For reference as of now I have experience with the first 4 Heroic modes on 25 man.

I tried starting the night off with gemming being Int:Red, Int/Mastery:Yellow, and Spirit:Blue. As far as reforging, I aimed for the 3106 breakpoint and then went full mastery. This worked great for H Immersius and I had absolutely no issues with very competitive heals. Once I got to H Protectors I had mana problems though. There were some parts of the fight where I was completely drained with some serious damage going out. Due to that I ended up going back to Spirit/Int: Red and Spirit/Mastery: Yellow. That took me from about 14.7k Spirit to about 17.3, and up at that level of Spirit I had the mana necessary for H Protectors and attempts on others.

I honestly don't think that I can run 15k Spirit or less in my raid environment. I may be able to switch gemming once I pick up a few SoO pieces, but until then Ill be sticking to favoring Spirit gems.

[Jackielope]

About the only thing I can see us doing as far as DPS goes is going Selfless Healer and Holy Avenger with Harsh Words and just hitting HA to spam HS and Judgment (probably with DL, FoL, or HR filler for more HoPo) into HW-WoG, and even that doesn't seem like it'd have similar results to what a druid could do.

Just how much Mp5 does Denounce take, by the way? I've seen several posters mention being able to run an HR-HR-HS-EF/LoD rotation for quite a while in a fight, which surely costs more mana than Denounce does, yes?

[nightfalls]

Just how much Mp5 does Denounce take, by the way? I've seen several posters mention being able to run an HR-HR-HS-EF/LoD rotation for quite a while in a fight, which surely costs more mana than Denounce does, yes?

With 27% haste:

HRx2 HS rotation costs ~38000 MP5.
Denounce + Holy Shock rotation costs ~23000 MP5.
Selfless Healer rotation costs ~27000 MP5.

Denounce is 60% of a full healing spam rotation, and 85% of a selfless healer rotation. Consider also that with selfless healer you are purposely reforging out of spirit so you can sustain even less.

P.S. Also remember that if you are using HS offensively then you do not get LMG or Mana Trinket procs which further lowers your MP5 and may even make your DPS cost more than your most intense healing spam!

[Keiyra]

Firstly, not every healer needs to bring dps (for the longest time none of them really did until atonement came into being).

Secondly, I understand the desire to bring more utility and more desirability but I question whether raid dps is really the road to go. I highly doubt blizzard would be keen on shifting any other heal specs into dealing more raid damage. (to say nothing of potential pvp implications - and its bad enough as is getting nerfed in pve due to pvp reasons).

There must be other, more preferable, avenues of utility besides doing more damage...no? I would hope they don't turn every spec into a disc/monk clone, that's all - so even if they were to give holy pallies more raid damage to it in some, interesting and different fashion.

[nightfalls]

Firstly, not every healer needs to bring dps (for the longest time none of them really did until atonement came into being).

Then none of them should at least not without a heavy price in healing and mana (both, not just one).

Do not forget that healer DPS on Norushen is even more important with the tactic used because healers (unlike the DPS) can obtain a purified buff with zero raid corruption/damage cost.

I highly doubt blizzard would be keen on shifting any other heal specs into dealing more raid damage.

As pointed out they all do more damage than paladins to begin with, obviously disc/monk does not need "even more." But even druid and shaman are 5x paladin output.

There must be other, more preferable, avenues of utility besides doing more damage...no? I would hope they don't turn every spec into a disc/monk clone, that's all - so even if they were to give holy pallies more raid damage to it in some, interesting and different fashion.

Then the damage of other specs must be toned down or (at least) given a much heavier mana/healing cost associated with them.

[Kretan]

I would like to know the answer to Skullcrusher's question as well. I got the Nazgrim;s trinket and I would be replacing the shadowpan assault rep trinket with it but I do not know if it better. I am hesitant to lose the static int from the rep trinket and the Nazgrim's trinket only does about 2.5% of my healing when i use it.

I got this trinket from normal, and I have liked it so far. I run the 7170 EF build and I have been trying to drop my regen further and further. Remember, when the trinket procs, you can snapshot the hot strength on your EF with the massive int bonus. For nuke heals, the trinket is ass. However, if you run with a hot style healing you can really make a killing on procs.

Also, an int proc trinket on pull on malkorok while popping EVERYTHING with luste = luls. I hit almost a million hps and finished the fight around 240k hps. I can't wait to do this fight with double int proc trinkets.....oh my god

[nightfalls]

Also, an int proc trinket on pull on malkorok while popping EVERYTHING with luste = luls. I hit almost a million hps and finished the fight around 240k hps. I can't wait to do this fight with double int proc trinkets.....oh my god

Why the hell would you pop everything on pull, you pop 2 minute CD's (HA + 4pc DF only) so that you can have your CD's up when... you know... the healing matters? And not just being "oh I'm so f** great at meters sooooo much HPS on green barriers"

[Lumineux]

Voidspark, you fail to bring up Holy Priests who are also unable to dps without giving up healing. Sure they can switch to DPS chakra, but that's at the sacrifice of a decent amount of throughput. Even if they did switch to DPS stance, they have to wait a full 30 seconds to go back to healing stance, which could potentially really suck in an emergency. Pallies are not the only healer class that can't dps "efficiently". Nor do I want them to be dps healers. I rolled a healer because I don't like dpsing.

It just seems like a rather moot point. Why would we bring a "dps healer" (say over a pure healer) when we could just drop an entire healer altogether and bring in a real dps that actually does substantial damage? Per your own numbers, the only healer that was able to dps without giving up healing was the disc priest. The monk sacrificed 40% of his healing. The druid only did 8 million in the first place, and the shaman didn't do any.

You're looking at this the wrong way. If other healers are giving up their throughput to do more damage, then who is going to make up for that healing? You can. Not every healer needs to contribute damage. The only single class that doesn't have to give up any healing throughput to dps is a disc priest. Every other healer does by using GCDs to press wrath instead of rejuv, or lightning bolt instead of riptide.

You can sit there and denounce if you want to, but just like other healers you'll be giving up some healing. Sure it might be more than them, but you can still do it, no one is stopping you. I know the other holy paladin in my group does it occasionally.

[nightfalls]

Pallies are not the only healer class that can't dps "efficiently".

False. "Efficiently" means without giving up substantial mana, which other healers can do in a lull. Paladins cannot, as I pointed out above any and all DPS options cost at minimum 60% of a full throughput healing rotation which is not paid by any other healer. If Denounce were mana free (and still did no healing) things would be different. Shaman Lightning Bolts are mana positive if glyphed by contrast. HotW wrath is mana free.

It just seems like a rather moot point. Why would we bring a "dps healer" (say over a pure healer) when we could just drop an entire healer altogether and bring in a real dps that actually does substantial damage?

Because 1) mechanics on fights as I pointed out can increase the value of healer DPS specifically, 2) the healers are still doing minimum of 60% full throughput.

Per your own numbers, the only healer that was able to dps without giving up healing was the disc priest. The monk sacrificed 40% of his healing. The druid only did 8 million in the first place, and the shaman didn't do any.

The shaman did 8 million DPS because Stormlash has to be counted since it stacks, even with more shamans it is a 5 minute cooldown so it does add effective DPS. That is a non-trivial raid contribution which would not exist if the Shaman were replaced with another spec.

You can sit there and denounce if you want to, but just like other healers you'll be giving up some healing. Sure it might be more than them, but you can still do it, no one is stopping you. I know the other holy paladin in my group does it occasionally.

I will be giving up significant mana compared to the 0 mana wrath and mana positive lightning bolts. So even if there is zero raid damage going out, Denounce will hurt my ability to heal later waves of damage which is a cost not suffered by others. That means either reforging extra spirit (and sacrificing overall healing) or it means less healing done later, or even worse going OOM early.

Unless there is a mana return mechanic or simply zero need for it (even with low spirit build) there is almost never any gain from Denounce.

[Jackielope]

Voidspark, have you voiced any of these concerns on the official forums? The chance to get a useful blue post might be worth the extra trolling and such from there if you haven't.

I kinda wish they'd add another glyph for denounce that would take away its crit negation, but lower its mana cost or something. Or if there were a system where judging a target debuffed it to allow us to use something like Denounce on it to generate healing for others. Perhaps redesigning Glyph of Illumination to allow us to get some mana back on Denounce would work too.

[nightfalls]

Voidspark, have you voiced any of these concerns on the official forums? The chance to get a useful blue post might be worth the extra trolling and such from there if you haven't.

I do not post on the official forums outside of PTR threads.

Norushen's tactic was probably unintended but it specifically highlights a problem that has existed all expansion with Paladins having zero DPS options that do not also burn your mana. All other healer specs can do either meaningful or free DPS with Disc (and to a lesser extent Monk) contributing both meaningful, free DPS that also passively heals. Paladins have to burn mana to do bad DPS that does not even do any passive healing, your heal throughput when DPS'ing is absolute zero.

I heavily expect Malkorok to be similar due to its DPS check. Considering that the healing in Phase 2 is mainly stacked AoE (DStar) and Phase 1 is just not healing green barriers.

Edit (post-Pacer's comment): Wowprogress has not included everyone yet due to armory checks and I am far too lazy to actually run through top guilds and see for sure how many paladins were brought. So I'll just erase this for now

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I don't think we are at 5.0 druid or 5.2 shaman level. But I do think that we are close to if not straight out dead bottom. Throughput even is relatively mediocre compared to everyone, ALL utility can be brought by any paladin spec (unlike AV for instance), and we have zero DPS offered compared to everyone especially monk/disc.

P.P.S. My priest gets the cloak this week! Of course, I have to not use Halo ~10 seconds before Immerseus add spawns.

[Freia]

Voidspark, you fail to bring up Holy Priests who are also unable to dps without giving up healing. Sure they can switch to DPS chakra, but that's at the sacrifice of a decent amount of throughput. Even if they did switch to DPS stance, they have to wait a full 30 seconds to go back to healing stance, which could potentially really suck in an emergency. Pallies are not the only healer class that can't dps "efficiently". Nor do I want them to be dps healers. I rolled a healer because I don't like dpsing.

Holy is a spec not a class. And acting like a holy priest can't switch to disc if the fight calls for as much raid dps as possible is rather shortsighted on your end.