Marksman....low again?

[Mainer]

So, I'm no hunter expert, but I've read that even with the buffs to MM it is STILL lagging behind BM and SV.

As I was playing around with the spec, one thing in particular stuck out to me: MM's steady shot does 66% wep. dmg + x, while BM/SV's Cobra Shot does 77% and increases duration of Serpent Sting.

Like I said, no expert, but wouldn't bumping up steady's dmg and having it interact with sting in some way help? It would reduce the GCDs spent on refreshing sting and be a slightly more buffed up version of Cobra Shot, which IMO any "shot" from MM should be superior from the other two.

What other ways could MM be helped?

[eschatological]

SS has a shorter cast time than CoS, which is why there is a disparity in the damage they do. Plus Chimera Shot refreshes SrS to full, instead of the simple extension mechanics of Cobra Shot. With a 9s CD and a 15s DoT, it's almost impossible for a SrS to fall off in single target combat without you having a much more serious DPS problem.

[Goondicker]

As esch said, chimaera will refresh serpent sting, so there's no need for steady shot to interact.

The spec lags behind because it is clunky. My guess is that blizzard is letting it slide until 6.0, when we will likely get a class overhaul circa warlock.

[Teucer]

So, I'm no hunter expert, but I've read that even with the buffs to MM it is STILL lagging behind BM and SV.

As I was playing around with the spec, one thing in particular stuck out to me: MM's steady shot does 66% wep. dmg + x, while BM/SV's Cobra Shot does 77% and increases duration of Serpent Sting.

Like I said, no expert, but wouldn't bumping up steady's dmg and having it interact with sting in some way help? It would reduce the GCDs spent on refreshing sting and be a slightly more buffed up version of Cobra Shot, which IMO any "shot" from MM should be superior from the other two.

What other ways could MM be helped?

MM isn't terribly behind in single target, there are other reasons that its 'lagging' though:

- Not many of the top players play it and this trickles down that its a bad spec, so the rest of the community leans towards the others
- Not many of the top player play it because its terrible in AoE situations compared to BM and Surv and while not completely terrible single target, it can't quite match single target of the others, hence top players who are expected to get every bit of DPS out play those.
- Its kinda clunky in its current form imo, to cast a non procced aim shot and then a chimera, you have to have 95 focus, pretty clunky to manage focus in that situation. Even chimera + arcane now is going to cost 75 focus, at least with BM you have a larger focus pool for Kill Command to work with

[Spiralphoenix]

Eh?

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/77767-cobra-shot

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/56641-steady-shot

I mean, effectively it has a shorter cast time, since you can basically consider 99.9% uptime of Steady Focus, but baseline they are identical.

I would have attributed the difference more to things like Piercing shots, which affects steady shot, and Master Marksman, giving you more frequent, harder hitting aimed shots - which essentially increases the value of each SS you cast. All specs have a "serpent sting preserver" type effect, I've always considered that a sort of sideline thing personally. Though I've never cared for Marks' implementation of it much, but it works.

[Mainer]

My mistake, I haven't been on MM much this xpack and missed Chimera refreshing Sting. I feel that MM needs to have the turret feel, where you pump out insane deeps with your bow/gun. Personally, I would like to see an option for the spec to go pet-less and a heavier emphasis on the shots as well.

[Deleted]

Personally I've been getting my best single-target DPS from MM.

I'm ilvl 547 with a 548 weapon, mixture of normal/flex/ToT gear

2pc T16 bonus

Topping out around 230k on Iron Juggernaut which is pretty close to my FD/Simcrafted dps. Also prefer it for Nazgrim since the adds are never gathered for AoE.

AMoC & Dire Beast.

I think MM is slightly let down by AoC trinket & T16 4pc bonus (I don't have either yet but they don't look very good for MM) and of course by it's AoE.

If I were a Dev, I'd be considering buffing the flat damage of Multi-shot in MM and buffing 4pc to change instant AiS to also make next AiS instant rather than -50% cast time. Not sure what to suggest they'd do about AoC because MM doesn't have any dps CDs like BM (BW) and SV (BA) do. Perhaps with MM it could affect the lvl 90 talent but that would make PS rather OP.

[Deleted]

Personally I've been getting my best single-target DPS from MM.

I'm ilvl 547 with a 548 weapon, mixture of normal/flex/ToT gear

2pc T16 bonus

Topping out around 230k on Iron Juggernaut which is pretty close to my FD/Simcrafted dps. Also prefer it for Nazgrim since the adds are never gathered for AoE.

AMoC & Dire Beast.

I think MM is slightly let down by AoC trinket & T16 4pc bonus (I don't have either yet but they don't look very good for MM) and of course by it's AoE.

If I were a Dev, I'd be considering buffing the flat damage of Multi-shot in MM and buffing 4pc to change instant AiS to also make next AiS instant rather than -50% cast time. Not sure what to suggest they'd do about AoC because MM doesn't have any dps CDs like BM (BW) and SV (BA) do. Perhaps with MM it could affect the lvl 90 talent but that would make PS rather OP.

Under very specific circunstances MM can perform higher that the other 2 specs. That mixed with the PVP problems makes devs very reluctant to make it the go-to spec. Also very few hunters (of the inmense playerbase) can play it properly, as it is the most different of the 3 specs and has not been played for almost 2 expansions, except a very brief period between 4.1 and 4.3, where SV was still being played by many hunters despite of being lower dps.

[Delaios]

Under very specific circunstances MM can perform higher that the other 2 specs. That mixed with the PVP problems makes devs very reluctant to make it the go-to spec. Also very few hunters (of the inmense playerbase) can play it properly, as it is the most different of the 3 specs and has not been played for almost 2 expansions, except a very brief period between 4.1 and 4.3, where SV was still being played by many hunters despite of being lower dps.

The PvP problems all stem from BM with it's hard hitting pet that you can't really get away from (Blink Strikes and Kill Command) and because it has another DPS cooldown that the other two specs have. Bestial Wrath with it's CC remover is a many times stronger DPS cooldown than Black Arrow (shit damage and RNG procs) and Marksman doesn't have anything to compete at all.
Whatever reasons the devs have for not buffing MM a bit, it isn't PvP. Marksmanships damage can be outranged/LOSed/Disarmed and is completely removed when using Deterrence. The devs think Marksmanship is fine, even when the other specs are better/equal at pretty much everything. The only thing Marksmanship has going for it are strong burst DPS at the start of a fight and a snare on Multishot.

Marksman was also the default spec for most of tier 11 (after they gutted Survival and buffed Marksman) and pretty much the whole of tier 12. Survival started becoming better again after 2-piece T13 (double focus from Steady/Cobra). That bonus made Marksman almost unplayable without capping focus and really favored Survival, which could be quite focus-starved (ES was still 50 focus).

[Deleted]

So, I'm no hunter expert, but I've read that even with the buffs to MM it is STILL lagging behind BM and SV.

As I was playing around with the spec, one thing in particular stuck out to me: MM's steady shot does 66% wep. dmg + x, while BM/SV's Cobra Shot does 77% and increases duration of Serpent Sting.

Like I said, no expert, but wouldn't bumping up steady's dmg and having it interact with sting in some way help? It would reduce the GCDs spent on refreshing sting and be a slightly more buffed up version of Cobra Shot, which IMO any "shot" from MM should be superior from the other two.

What other ways could MM be helped?

MM single target is very competitive, particularly in HC's. Only weaving in SS after Hardcasting x2 Aimed back2back to have enough focus for CS on cd. That and the SSx2 to maintain haste buff. Fervor is essential for smooth play to MM, I don't think it's clunky as some people have said - it is a little more challenging, but easy nonetheless.

The only improvement that could and should be implemented for now is our WQ (mastery) and Auto-shot should not be cancelled during Aimed hard cast.

[Arkamedis]

One of the hunters in my guild is playing MM, stacking haste. He peaks top dps on most fights, and is competing with our warlocks and myself (boomkin). But he is also a skilled player, so that could be leading into it.

[Deleted]

Why are people even bringing in "peek dps". When you have 100% crit chance for the first 10% ofc MM is gonna look good at the start. But after that is really lacking proper sustained damage. Aswell as beeing really horrible in any aoe & cleave situation.

[Teucer]

One of the hunters in my guild is playing MM, stacking haste. He peaks top dps on most fights, and is competing with our warlocks and myself (boomkin). But he is also a skilled player, so that could be leading into it.

A skilled player playing any spec can make that spec look good. So many times people say a class or spec is OP because the player is better than that person or other players they've seen.

[gulder]

Sims of any kind show all the specs in very close proximity of each other dps wise.

Just play whatever you do more dps with.

[Valkors]

Sims of any kind show all the specs in very close proximity of each other dps wise.

Just play whatever you do more dps with.

http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t130382-...4/#post2333642

As you can see, gulder is correct. All specs are close together in PURE single target dps races. But bc of MM's weaker AoE, and SoO being heavily AoE favored, SV and BM pull even further ahead. If you want to get the most you can out of your hunter, learn one of those two specs well.