The LFR deserter debuff for tanks needs to be, like, 7 days

[RoKPaNda]

The only people not switching over to Flex are those too bad for it, or those that think finding a group is extremely hard.

See you're doing that thing again where you feel a certain way and then you assume that the majority of people feel the same way that you do when common sense should indicate otherwise. Don't worry though, that's a pretty natural thing to do. Do you have any proof at all that the only people who aren't switching over to the less convenient method of raiding are people who are bad or are misinformed about the difficulty of getting a group? Of course you don't. It's not difficult to find a Flex group, but it's not nearly as convenient as it is to find a group for LFR. What you don't seem to understand is that it has little to do with skill and everything having to do with Flex still requires you to be in the right place at the right time. If your schedule isn't convenient or you're playing at off hours, you are completely and totally boned as far as Flex goes. LFR? You just join a queue and then go do whatever and within an hour (usually much less) you'll be in a group and not have to deal with linking achievements or ilevel or any bullshit.

I really wish you "LFR Heroes" would realize that flex was Blizzard's passive-aggressive way of getting rid of LFR.

Source? Nope! Flex is Blizzard's way of re-introducing the trade chat raid pug which died a fiery death at the introduction of LFR. I'm sorry, I know that you hate LFR because it's a slap in the face for people who can't conform to a set raid schedule to have gear that's inferior to your own for whatever reason, but LFR is going to be around probably longer than heroic raiding will. I mean if heroic raiding, which caters to a very very very small percentage of max level players can justify it's continued existence, then certainly LFR can as well.

[Deleted]

Or, I dunno, 1 day the first time, and if you get a deserter debuff again within a week, 7 days.

I would be fine with a long debuff for healers too.

thats how LFR system works someone comes and for the x reason he leaves you dont like it spend the hours that you wait on real raid and dont cry

[Normie]

I was doing more DPS in Cataclysm than most people in LFR do in SoO. Hell, I was doing EASILY 70k DPS in 463 gear and entry epics back in MSV.

If people cannot muster the effort to do atleast 70k in 500ilvl gear, its not Blizzards fault. Its the players fault for being bad. There is no excuse other than pure laziness on the part of DPS for doing sub MSV levels of DPS at this ilvl.

This thread is bad and Normie, I hope I never, ever, encounter you in game.

The players are who they are. They are a mixture of good and bad. When you have a sizable number of them, 17 in the case of DPS, they are never all good, and are never all bad. There are relatively few ways of differentiating the capability of players automatically. Ilevel is the only straightforward, useful one.

You could do what humans do, and require people to have the LFR achieve before allowing them to queue for that same LFR.

Oh, wait, what humans do is often stupid.

[Deja Thoris]

How can this thread prompt 16 pages of debate?

It's a stupid idea and the dev's will never go for it because they don't want to discourage people from filling an already rare role.

Since theres a surplus of dps they should discourage bads from joining or find some way to punish them for sucking. Then maybe tanks and healers won't have to join in-progress groups with 5 stacks of determination with befuddled dps doing 50k (with the 25% bonus it gives) wondering why the epics haven't dropped yet. Like others have said, the dps some people do in lfr can be done in 463 gear.

[Murderdoll]

The players are who they are. They are a mixture of good and bad. When you have a sizable number of them, 17 in the case of DPS, they are never all good, and are never all bad. There are relatively few ways of differentiating the capability of players automatically. Ilevel is the only straightforward, useful one.

You could do what humans do, and require people to have the LFR achieve before allowing them to queue for that same LFR.

Oh, wait, what humans do is often stupid.

Well if we did it your way, the minimum ilvl would have to be high enough so that auto attacking can beat the enrage timer. What ilvl do you suggest? 550?

[Normie]

Well if we did it your way, the minimum ilvl would have to be high enough so that auto attacking can beat the enrage timer. What ilvl do you suggest? 550?

Does the average player in LFR spend his entire time autoattacking?

Do you know the meaning of the word "average"?

[Murderdoll]

Does the average player in LFR spend his entire time autoattacking?

Do you know the meaning of the word "average"?

From what Ive seen in the last month the average player doesnt get above 60k DPS. I did that when I was still at 463 ilvl gearing for raids.

My point still stands.

Its not Blizzards fault, its the player's fault. The ilvl required to get into SoO is totally acceptable to beat something like Nazgrims enrage timers - if the raid isnt full of mouth breathers. By the amount of people posting about the difficulty of LFR Nazgrim...well Ill let you draw your own conclusion.

[dexx]

Make tanks have dps equal to DPS classes. Then tanks may become more common. Notice i didnt say "good tanks"

[Normie]

From what Ive seen in the last month the average player doesnt get above 60k DPS. I did that when I was still at 463 ilvl gearing for raids.

My point still stands.

Its not Blizzards fault, its the player's fault. The ilvl required to get into SoO is totally acceptable to beat something like Nazgrims enrage timers - if the raid isnt full of mouth breathers. By the amount of people posting about the difficulty of LFR Nazgrim...well Ill let you draw your own conclusion.

It should be obvious to you that typical groups have difficulty beating Nazgrim's enrage timer (perhaps less so after the nerfs).

Exactly how, other than rounding up over a dozen friends and queuing into LFR all at once, are you going to limit the number of "mouth breathers" in any LFR group?

How many "mouth breathers" are there, on average, in a group of 25 players who fail to get Nazgrim down on the first try? How many of them are "retards"? How many are "bads"? How did you gain this knowledge? How do you operate at work or at school? Do you ask your boss to get rid of the 50% of co-workers that he hired that you consider to be "retards"?

[Itisamuh]

Tanks and healers already have it bad enough, with the pressure and the amount of crap they get when things go wrong, compared to everyone else. Putting more limitations on them would just cause fewer people to be willing to do the role, and thus longer queues for everyone else.

[Calaba]

Exactly how, other than rounding up over a dozen friends and queuing into LFR all at once, are you going to limit the number of "mouth breathers" in any LFR group?

I already explained this - just put a dps requirement on the trash. Those that dont manage a certain minimum dps overall get auto-kicked from the group. Have this check done before the start of each boss. There's no guarantee that their replacements will be much better, but odds are at least some will be, and dps overall will improve, as will queue times. Honestly, tons of flex raids have no difficulties with such a policy (do a certain amount of dps or it'll be easier without you etc), why shouldn't LFR?

[Santti]

Tanks? They have sometimes the longest queue for LFR. My tank queue have been ranging from 10min to an hour+, and as dps max 20min. Healer is instant, I believe. But then again, it differs from region to region.

[Murderdoll]

I give up, this normie just wants to keep making excuses for poor play. I can understand LFR is for people who may not be the most skilled raiders in the world.

But surely even they must know what "DONT ATTACK THE BOSS" means or how to do a basic rotation.

Like I said, Ive stopped running LFR entirely. ToT has become the land of the 30k DPS. SoO is 50k in most instances. I was doing more than 30k back in Cataclysm. I was doing more than 50k in basic blues. If people cant do that at near 500ilvl, then you need to take a damn good look at yourself. Blizzard cant hold your hand at every turn.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

If DPS aren't doing enough DPS, it's because Blizzard set the minimum required ilevel too low. It is not the group of 17 DPS fault that their average DPS is too low to meet Nazgrim's enrage timer. There is nothing that you or ANYONE in the group can do to fix that problem, because you are just one person, and there are 16 other people who are admitted based on criteria that you do not control.

So, even if low DPS is the reason that a group is wiping, that is not the group's fault.

However, if the group has enough DPS to get the boss down after 5 stacks of determination, and a tank decides to leave before that, now, that is something the tank could have chosen not to do, and it is absolutely the tank's fault that the group had to wait for another tank, and the tank who dropped group after one or two wipes shouldn't be invited back to LFR until at least the next lockout.

This is all false. If the DPS are being lazy, that isn't Blizzards or the tanks fault. And the group can fix that problem; boot the bad dps.

- - - Updated - - -

I was doing more DPS in Cataclysm than most people in LFR do in SoO. Hell, I was doing EASILY 70k DPS in 463 gear and entry epics back in MSV.

If people cannot muster the effort to do atleast 70k in 500ilvl gear, its not Blizzards fault. Its the players fault for being bad. There is no excuse other than pure laziness on the part of DPS for doing sub MSV levels of DPS at this ilvl.

This thread is bad and Normie, I hope I never, ever, encounter you in game.

I was doing 30k in ICC. Bads will always have an excuse.

- - - Updated - - -

Does the average player in LFR spend his entire time autoattacking?

Do you know the meaning of the word "average"?

Lots of LFR players do, and thats way too many. I just boot them.

- - - Updated - - -

It should be obvious to you that typical groups have difficulty beating Nazgrim's enrage timer (perhaps less so after the nerfs).

Exactly how, other than rounding up over a dozen friends and queuing into LFR all at once, are you going to limit the number of "mouth breathers" in any LFR group?

How many "mouth breathers" are there, on average, in a group of 25 players who fail to get Nazgrim down on the first try? How many of them are "retards"? How many are "bads"? How did you gain this knowledge? How do you operate at work or at school? Do you ask your boss to get rid of the 50% of co-workers that he hired that you consider to be "retards"?

Maybe my boss didn't hire retards, because the "im entitled to work here" excuse doesn't work in real life most of the time.

Also, to limit mouth breathers in my LFR, I boot them.

[Deleted]

I was doing 30k in ICC. Bads will always have an excuse.

I'm just waiting for Normie to say that it doesn't count because you had the ICC buff.

[Roshar]

I'm sure this isn't what he intended, but I'm laughing at every single one of Normie's posts. Thanks for the entertainment.

[Synbaby]

Most good or decent tanks now run flex, leaving lfr with dps with bad offspec gear wanting a quick queue for lfr. They don't bother to look at videos or read the dungeon journal. In lfr the general majority of people in a single lfr is more likely to rage and kick tanks or healers for not doing their job, but if there are a couple dps not doing their job, they never seem to get kicked.

I think there should be an instant auto kick due to inactivity(for trash and bosses), kind of like in bgs. You go afk more than 5 minutes(maybe 2 minutes for bosses), you get kicked for inactivity. The current vote to kick in lfr is extremely broken with most people in an lfr have kicked people so many times that can't kick for 2-4 hours....

[Deleted]

Heroic scenarios are only popular among the efficiency-obsessed valor-cappers.

The valor-cappers are for the most part normal and heroic mode raiders.

Okay, so there are as many people running flex as there are doing organized raiding.

What is the other 95% of the playing population doing?

- - - Updated - - -


That's not what I'm claiming at all.

The minimum ilevel needs to be set high enough so that the average DPS of the group is enough to meet the enrage timer.

You don't have the ability to control the actions of individual players (other than yourself) in LFR. Neither does Blizzard. However, Blizzard does have the ability to adjust the average DPS of the group by changing the ilevel requirement.

You can talk about things that are impossible, like eliminating the bad players, which is fun for you because it makes you feel "good," or you can talk about things that are possible, like adjusting entrance requirements that actually exist.

I actually think I get, what you're trying to say (for once) but you're completely off.

Agreed that I don't have the ability to control the actions of individual players, I can't force someone to not afk on every single trash pack, or prevent someone from committing suicide within the first 10 seconds just to refuse a combat res. But what I CAN do, is try to kick them. When I say "try", it's cause the vote to kick system is so broken it might as well not even exist. Cause the bad players gets shielded from a kick and the good players get a cool down of x amount of hours for trying to kick said bad people.

If it was easier to kick the really bad people doing 30k!!! then maybe more of the better players would stay.

About the ilvl required. If you truly want to make sure, that gear makes up for 30k dps, you'd have to set the ilvl to at least 530 or something. And that means that people might as well go do Normal ToT, cause that's the only way they have a chance to meet that requirement.

The people LFR was mainly meant for, can't get the ilvl required, if you want gear to carry them to say 70k. 70k is even low but there's just no way Blizz can regulate the ilvl to make up for players auto attacking, dying in fire, afk'ing or just being completely retards.

No, this is about bad players that need to improve or gtfo of LFR. Again, not saying bad as in 70k+ but saying bad as in 30k.

[Mandible]

as a tank, i would like a deserter-debuff to dps that are kicked. Then i wpuld spend all my ingame time voting for 30% of dps in LFR to get kicked - the reason why i sometime leaves a raid is as simple as, I dont want to spend my time and gold on getting killed, either because dps suck at dmg, or at other simple mechanics.

So dont get started - normally noone leaves if things are going well!

So you only want the rewards with none of the riscs involved? Then don't do lfr

[Succath]

Sure, let's give us Tanks even less of a reason to run LFR!

If the group is failing, then why do I have to stay?

Exactly this. 9/10 time the tanks are not failing but the DPs is. Pulling the boss before the tank has proper agro and such.
I dont mind if they ban certain DPS for life on LFr but i guess one can only keep on hoping