5.4 Gemming & Mr.Robot

[Snowfunk]

I just noticed that Mr.Robot wants me to prioritize Mastery over Strenght. It wants me to socket Expertise & Haste over Strenght & Haste, dropping Strenght to gain Mastery.

Yet, I cant find any similar intel anywhere else to support this. Every other source of guidance still suggest Strenght & Haste Gems for red sockets.

Thoughts?

[Todyn]

I just noticed that Mr.Robot wants me to prioritize Mastery over Strenght. It wants me to socket Expertise & Haste over Strenght & Haste, dropping Strenght to gain Mastery.

Yet, I cant find any similar intel anywhere else to support this. Every other source of guidance still suggest Strenght & Haste Gems for red sockets.

Thoughts?

link to armory?

[Deleted]

Its likely trying to get you on breakpoins and getting as few points as possible over them. My recommendation with askmrrobot is to always have a look at stat weights and lock in your gems if you don't wish to change them around every time you get a new piece of gear.

[Rathimis]

It wants you to drop strength to gain hastse, not mastery

[Snowfunk]

It wants you to drop strength to gain hastse, not mastery

Dont know if you read my post. But gemming Expertise and releasing reforged Mastery does not gain me any Haste.

[Tanyn]

Reforging to Expertise nets you Mastery because of how we're already gearing. Most of your gear will already have Haste on it. Therefor you cannot reforge TO Haste. So, you will be reforging any Expertise/Haste items to Mastery. Mastery is however very good and worth losing the strength just because of the weights. I know it seems weird, but since they changed the value of secondary stats if it's more than .50 of STR it's worth the switch. Just gem the EXP/Haste or Mastery gems until you cannot reforge away anymore Expertise. Then go back to gemming STR/Haste or Mastery.

Remember in this tier you want to get around 17,000 Haste and then start getting Mastery. Even before the stat amp trinket you can start using some Exp/Mastery or Str/Mastery gems in some of your slots.

Breakdown:
Under 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Haste gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
Under 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Haste gems.
At 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Mastery gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
At 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Mastery gems.

[Deathpony]

Common sense and guides tell me to gem str/haste in red sockets because we can't ever reforge to get STR. I saw how recently expertise gives casters spell hit. So I'm wondering if that has something to do with this, which is:

Ask Mr Robot keeps suggesting I gem exp/haste gems instead of str/haste in red sockets.

Da Heck? Am I missing something or is their alg just wonking out?

[Lucetia]

Common sense and guides tell me to gem str/haste in red sockets because we can't ever reforge to get STR. I saw how recently expertise gives casters spell hit. So I'm wondering if that has something to do with this, which is:

Ask Mr Robot keeps suggesting I gem exp/haste gems instead of str/haste in red sockets.

Da Heck? Am I missing something or is their alg just wonking out?

It's probably telling you that because you are below expertise cap and can't reforge enough into it. Hard to tell without an armory. Expertise give casters hit, but not something they really want to do.

Melee want 7.5% hit and 7.5% expertise which hit caps some classes (Enhance/Ret) at 15% spell hit. Casters need just a flat 15% hit.

[ZeroEdgeir]

Additionally, it can be because you can use the Expertise on the gems to change other reforges you can get Haste and/or Mastery out of, which are worth more than 2x the Strength on the gem.

[Deathpony]

My caps are fine, 7.52%/7.72%.

If I reforge as per it's suggestion, I'll end up with 7.51/7.51 but lose 1746 AP (-794 str), and 0.42% haste.
Gain 0.13% Crit, +5.01% Mastery

I think the mastery gain has something to do with it being greater than the benefit of 1746 attack power off the str. That's just a guess.

[Tanyn]

Did you not read my post? Scroll up, it will explain.

[Lucetia]

I know it seems weird, but since they changed the value of secondary stats if it's more than .50 of STR it's worth the switch. Just gem the EXP/Haste or Mastery gems until you cannot reforge away anymore Expertise. Then go back to gemming STR/Haste or Mastery.

Remember in this tier you want to get around 17,000 Haste and then start getting Mastery. Even before the stat amp trinket you can start using some Exp/Mastery or Str/Mastery gems in some of your slots.

Breakdown:
Under 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Haste gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
Under 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Haste gems.
At 17,000 Haste and below Expertise cap: Exp/Mastery gems. Reforge all Expertise to Mastery.
At 17,000 Haste and AT the Expertise cap: Str/Mastery gems.

I'm not disputing anything you said, as others have as well. But every time (even this expansion) when I go to Sim my paladin I get totally different stat weights.

I'm at 539 ilvl with 2pc T15 (I have T16 chest piece, but I'd break my old bonus and gain nothing new). Armory Link

This is what I get when I sim my toon. Maybe there's something you can see that might be wrong? I'm doing it at full raid buffs/debuffs and 10k iterations and I get the below:

Str 4.71
Crit 2.79 (4.18 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Haste 2.62 (3.93 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Mastery 2.46 (3.69 when taking 0.50 gem boost)

I know last tier I was getting Haste > Crit. Now I know why Haste/Mastery are better than Crit, it's just that the sim isn't backing up the same information.

Ok, redid it with 25k iterations and changed player skill to average and see what it said:

Str 4.73
Crit 2.69 (4.03 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Haste 2.50 (4.00 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Mastery 2.37 (3.55 when taking 0.50 gem boost)

[Tanyn]

Maybe something with the sim? I'm not sure. I've seen other people get the same issues but then they regemmed and it said the other way around.

[Lucetia]

Maybe something with the sim? I'm not sure. I've seen other people get the same issues but then they regemmed and it said the other way around.

Yea, the sim makes no sense at all and I've been getting similar results for several patches now (even with newest versions), but if I attempt to gem/forge the way it suggests I notice my dps drop so I swap back despite what sim says. As I mentioned before I know why Haste / Mastery > Crit, but simc just wants to disagree. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing then.

[thatfireguy]

I'm not disputing anything you said, as others have as well. But every time (even this expansion) when I go to Sim my paladin I get totally different stat weights.

I'm at 539 ilvl with 2pc T15 (I have T16 chest piece, but I'd break my old bonus and gain nothing new). Armory Link

This is what I get when I sim my toon. Maybe there's something you can see that might be wrong? I'm doing it at full raid buffs/debuffs and 10k iterations and I get the below:

Str 4.71
Crit 2.79 (4.18 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Haste 2.62 (3.93 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Mastery 2.46 (3.69 when taking 0.50 gem boost)

I know last tier I was getting Haste > Crit. Now I know why Haste/Mastery are better than Crit, it's just that the sim isn't backing up the same information.

Ok, redid it with 25k iterations and changed player skill to average and see what it said:

Str 4.73
Crit 2.69 (4.03 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Haste 2.50 (4.00 when taking 0.50 gem boost)
Mastery 2.37 (3.55 when taking 0.50 gem boost)

The stat budget on haste/mastery/crit gems are double that of the str gem, so your values should look like :

Str 4.71
Crit 2.79 (5.58 when considering 2x gem budget)
Haste 2.62 (5.24 when considering 2x gem budget)
Mastery 2.46 (4.92 when considering 2x gem budget)

By gemming expertise you are able to stop reforging out of other secondaries into expertise, thus you can say that expertise is equal in weight to your lowest secondary (in this case mastery). As a mastery gem (and hence expertise) is worth more than a str gem, you get more out of your gear by gemming exp/haste rather than str/haste

[Lucetia]

By gemming expertise you are able to stop reforging out of other secondaries into expertise, thus you can say that expertise is equal in weight to your lowest secondary (in this case mastery). As a mastery gem (and hence expertise) is worth more than a str gem, you get more out of your gear by gemming exp/haste rather than str/haste

You are right about it being 2x and not 1.5x. I just saw 1.5x earlier in the thread, but it still doesn't say why a sim would value Crit higher than haste/mastery when I'm nowhere near the 17000 haste softcap. Which is more of my question of why the sim says those stat weights when in actuality it's not that. Right now I just swap the stats (since that's what it should be) around so it goes:

Haste 2.79 (5.58)
Mastery 2.62 (5.24)
Crit 2.46 (4.92)

[Tanyn]

Remember SimCraft is not made by Blizzard. It does have some flaws just like any program. It could be just that.

[Lucetia]

Remember SimCraft is not made by Blizzard. It does have some flaws just like any program. It could be just that.

Yea and that's what I'm figuring. I just thought it was something I was doing (as others get different results), but you said you've seen others report similar. So it could be a mixture of anything. So for now I just rearrange the stats according to where they should be and give them the appropriate number based off the sim. Probably not the best, but it works and is about right.

As for the Mr. Robot thing I'm curious too as I put mine in just to see and it wants me to drop 2% (32% to 30%) on haste and gain about 2% mastery. I'll probably try it out and in a way it makes sense as the 2% haste probably isn't enough to reduce CD's enough to make it worth the loss of mastery. I know though once I get trinket from Galk then I'll see what I can do (with my current gear) and get it closer to 17000 haste.

[Montoyal]

It's been stated constantly since late 5.2 ( since heroic weapons came around ) that all of our secondary stats are point by point better than half a point of str. So yeah it's telling you to regem to gain expertise ( and lose str ) to gain mastery and probably also some crit because it gains you more dps. And our secondary stats will keep getting better as our weapons keep getting better.

[Rathimis]

My last run of simc 540-3, single target, gave me a stat weight on Haste of 0.79, if str is 1. 4 targets gave an even higher value for haste.

I plugged in the numbers to askmrrobot and, as expected, I had to do a major regem: Haste JC gems instead of Str and skipping Str socket bonuses to gem more haste. I do feel I got positive real world results from this, but I have no mathmatical proof.

I'm at 554 ilvl, Galakras and Thok trinkets, with 561 weapon. I'm expecting haste to drop once the 40% unbuffed is hit. Stat weights are looking to be quite relative to weapon and trinkets at this point though.