Why the heroic raid is not necessary at all

[Deleted]

I don't smoke at all. I just feel people nowadays are too polite to say anything which may cause arguments or this forum doesn't welcome controversy at all?

Polite? On a forum? About WoW?

[Wildtree]

Actually I don't see this positive side effect in hindsight. We had 3-4 Tanks who were pretty much bothered left and right to tank this, tank that. What you tried to do is be friends with certain ppl to have a guranteed spot. But really it was our MT, the guild leader, the second in command and two other officers who had a fixed 5 man that advanced furthes. Then there were two sort of lose groups around the other tanks and the rest of the guild was a bit screwed.

It basically extended to Kara: one awesome group with the 10-12 best buddies and MT / MH and a couple of lose groups that stumbled and struggled there.

In heroic 5 mans, this continued. Don't take the warlock if you can take the mage...etc

you mean the "clique effect" was strong? Probably yes. And admittedly, if I think back, I was lucky enough to be on the benefiting end. My main was a healer, and I was highly sought after. If I'm honest, yeah.. It sometimes was even a little bothersome. When you come online you wanna play your game, you wanna do your thing, and there the whispers flying in left and right from people who want you to heal for them. As for the guild, the one I was in was not super large, nor super tiny. We've established kind of a "no clique" policy. Yes, we had a "core" 5 man group, that ran together pretty much every day. But we did this only when the situation permitted. Once enough people were online we actually split up and ran with the other guildies. If a guild has 5 officers and those 5 officers socialize with the guild, and helps them with runs etc. the guild members feel included. When these 5 guys always run as a group, the guild members feel excluded. It's counter productive.

I realize though, that the review of the game is heavily bound to ones personal experience within the game, and mine was the best during TBC and the first year of Wrath. It went downhill with the TOC patch. My then guild leader got negatively influenced by a couple rather newer guild members who dragged elitism and favoritism/clique building into the guild. Despite my (and some other officers) warnings and interferences on the matter, it entered a spiral which eventually lead to the total collapse and disband of the guild. I was the first officer who left the guild, and even the realm. I had my heart put into the guild, and did not want to be part of any other guild on the same realm. I couldn't do that.

[billielecter]

You finally understand me. That's good. I'm sure measures will be taken to deal with H-modes in the future to simplify it or remove it. H-modes may not provide higher gears instead of that transmogs or mounts. The market will decide that majority wants this game totally revealed to everyone, not catering for 1%.

You're beginning to sound like a stuck record now. If heroics are nerfed then they won't be heroics: the whole point of them is that they are a challenge for the players that want that challenge. The message I am getting fom you is loud and clear: 'I am incapable of playing at the level demanded by current heroic raids so I want them made easier for me or removed so I can have more content'.

[brirrspliff]

So why don't you just stop being a lady who whispers in their afternoon teatime and say what you wanna say? As I am not even an native speaker to English.

i think earl grey is better, because it has a nice bouquet of spices. i am not even a native speaker to english, yet i like their tea. i think the british tradition of tea is a fine one, and i'm glad that, thanks to them, i'm now enjoying a lot of nice sorts of tea.

and lastly, heroic mode is the only true raidmode. the others are just downtuned versions, not vice versa. i think you mixed that up.

[Imnick]

They would not gain enough development time by cutting heroic modes to develop an entirely new raid.
Tuning heroic encounters with their additional stresses and new mechanics takes some time yes, but not significantly enough that it would add up to another raid per tier. It wouldn't even add up to another raid per expansion. It probably wouldn't even be enough for one additional dungeon per expansion.

[Gaman]

Thing is, scapping heroics wouldnt really get you any more content, neither would scrapping LFR/Flex and Heroic and just keep the normal mode. Its a reason they can have 4 difficulties, its obvious that scaling up/down is not alot of work.

And if heroics are gone, I am gone, since I would then already have been done with the 5.4 raid content. Then again, I would happily go back to the BC raid model, but this would mean you (OP) would not raid at all I guess...

[Florena]

If anything they should get rid of the easier difficulties. I don't need to beat the end game content in less than a month(if they released lfr all the first it'd be less than a week). The fun in conquering endgame is in it being difficult. It's sad that quite a few people have forgotten that and just want to beat everything in game regardless of challenge(leading to LFR and Flex). Part of the challenge of raiding has always been building a group that works well together and can raid on a regular basis. If anything they should make the game more difficult so people get an actual sense of accomplishment when they defeat the end boss of a tier. Currently it just feels anticlimactic unless you're doing it on Heroic.

You are not the target audience for lfr or flex. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. Don't do lfr if it robs you of your enjoyment.

[billielecter]

I drink tea too. I just use the scene to give you a vivid picture of people who are afraid to talk about the flaws in WOW.

i think earl grey is better, because it has a nice bouquet of spices. i am not even a native speaker to english, yet i like their tea. i think the british tradition of tea is a fine one, and i'm glad that, thanks to them, i'm now enjoying a lot of nice sorts of tea.

and lastly, heroic mode is the only true raidmode. the others are just downtuned versions, not vice versa. i think you mixed that up.

[Allatar]

You finally understand me. That's good. I'm sure measures will be taken to deal with H-modes in the future to simplify it or remove it. H-modes may not provide higher gears instead of that transmogs or mounts. The market will decide that majority wants this game totally revealed to everyone, not catering for 1%.

I give up with you; your argument is greedy and entitled and you have made some sweeping generalisation about what is best for the game based your own biased viewpoint. You have clearly experienced some form of exclusion or ridicule ingame, which I do not condone, and have decided that whole sections of the game should be changed and/or removed from the game to suit your pampered whims. You would have no reason to call for the removal of heroic raiding otherwise. you should buck up, improve yourself and prove yourslef capable if you want to see the hardest content the game offers, not cry about it being there and inaccessible. Do you go into shops and ask for expensive items you can't afford to be reduced in price because you don't have enough money?

You are a shining example of what has crept in to the bottom levels of the game: entitlement, arrogance and meanspiritedness.

[Deleted]

Blizzard is making this game easier. That's the solid proof which shows the benefit of simplifying this game. I do think more players will be attracted to this game if H-modes are nerfed so majority could have it. Otherwise, H-modes don't have to be created. I rather see another Raid instead.

Yes, there are nerfed hard-modes. It's called normal and flex. Does the fact that 5-mans are called "heroic" make you feel awesome and very skilled for clearing one? Or do you get a huge sense of achievement because you got an "epic" item? Point is, if you nerfed hard-modes you'd just create another version of normal (or worse) where the only "heroic" is the name.

You make even more sense now than before. You complain that resources are wasted on heroics (which are minimal considering they just need extra tuning and abilities) but you'd rather have blizzard make a whole other raid which requires a lot of extra resources that still ONLY A MINORITY of players will enjoy (because a lot of players don't raid, not even in LFR).

Or let's say it another way: LFR has way more players than flex, normal or heroic. Let's remove all other modes and make all raids LFR skill level. A raid that requires no coordination, can be cleared in a day by a random group of strangers and then everyone unsubs until the next tier.

[DeadmanWalking]

Heroic Level raiding isn't necessary but that does not mean it should not exist for those who like that level of difficulty. Heroic content does not make elitists, there are lot hardcore raiders who are elite but not elitists. Being an elitists just requires taking so much pride in what you do that you feel entitled to be an asshole to everyone else.

I'm not at all behind taking content out of the game just because it is content that I don't do. I don't care if you LFR, Hardcore raid, or just fish all day. It's not effecting me, I don't even recognize these players unless they are part of the group I am interacting with.

Its time for people to grow up and just leave everyone elses content alone. You do what you like and stop worrying about what other people do. Only asshats think they can fix a game by ruining someone elses game just to make themselves feel better about what they do.

[Nobleshield]

I would argue that more people find Normal to be challenging and Heroic as little more than "peer pressure" from other guilds than find Normal easy and Heroic to be the "real" raiding scene.

[therayeffect]

The entire game isn't 'necessary' at all which means that any part of the game isn't 'necessary' either. This is a stupid argument. If they want to keep the game successful, they need a heroic raid. Without that kind of progression, the game would surely fall apart as has been discussed by others. WoW's PvE endgame is it's #1 selling point and if you cut off the top part of it, you'll get a ripple effect which will ruin the game and cause it to get a lot less free advertisement and you'd end up losing a lot of subscribers almost immediately.

[Gilian]

This whole thing isn't an argument, it's just a rant. People think because *they* don't care about heroics, they have no place in the game. That's incredibly narrow-minded and egotistical. The whole reason we have different difficulties is because we have different types of players.

In Vanilla and TBC, they sorted these players by letting them see different amounts of content; this was obviously not such a good idea, as it took away from the game and wasted design space.

In WotLK they tried to make everything accessible to everyone in the same state, but quickly realized that wasn't a good idea either, because people have different expectations and different ideas of "fun" in the game. So they came up with heroic modes, which really isn't something all that new - after all, games have had different difficulty modes since like forever.

So in Cata they started right away with that concept in mind, but there were still screwups: the progression curve was too steep for the lower-tier players, and there (again) was only one progression path (through heroics) falling again into the pitfalls of "one-size-doesn't-fit-all".

It's only with MoP that they have gone even further; LFR from the get-go for every instance, scenarios, daily quests, and now Flex raiding: very different progression paths at various difficulties, to hopefully cater to the widest possible variety of players. They even tried hard to make sure that the difficulties don't overlap. Outside of week 1/2, I doubt any heroic raider needs to do Flex or LFR. There are still problems of course, such as the complete irrelevance of 5-man heroic dungeons, but I think we're on a steadily improving path. I cannot comprehend how and why people think heroics are a bad thing. Just as there are casual, less skilled and less ambitious players, there are more "hardcore", more skilled, more ambitious players.

I know from personal experience that I, too, very much fall into the "without heroics I wouldn't play the game" category. The casual content in WoW is way too easy for me, and easy bores me. We accepted it in the past, because there was no alternative; now there is, and we'd never go back. In fact, I miss even more challenging content, especially outside of heroic raids; I very much loved the early TBC and early Cata 5-man heroics, and was very sad to see them nerfed into the ground.

I think that Blizzard knows this, too, and they are trying to come up with a solution for the next expansion. I think it's simple: do the same thing you did with raids. We have normal, LFR, flex, and heroic; give us normal, heroic, and epic mode for 5-man dungeons! Heck, add a legendary mode, too, why not?! Challenge Mode doesn't count, by the way: it's a zergfest, not a skill-test, and Blizzard have acknowledged themselves that CMs have proven less popular than they expected.

Difficulty modes are really the only way to not only show off the same design space to different players, but to have their different experiences not impede each other. Don't force an overlap, but instead emphasize gateways: the more varied the progression curve, the more chance for those players who want it to ascend to the next level. A slope, not a wall - but also not a lift. There should be effort involved, and it should be incentivized accordingly. Don't stick transmog gear in the highest difficulty settings; that's not the right target audience. Transmog is fine for some challenges, but something like CM where it's the sole purpose is inherently broken: people at lower tiers of "skill" tend to care a lot more about appearances than those at higher tiers. Also don't make it all about gear, or at least not in too large gaps. This will not be easy, but then again it's why we pay Blizzard to come up with stuff like that :P

Damn, nice reply :P.

[Tyrxor]

You finally understand me. That's good. I'm sure measures will be taken to deal with H-modes in the future to simplify it or remove it. H-modes may not provide higher gears instead of that transmogs or mounts. The market will decide that majority wants this game totally revealed to everyone, not catering for 1%.

But you do realize, that giving heroic raiders new transmog and new mounts would cost much more developing time than giving them new bossmechanics or gear that looks the same on all difficulties? In this case you would habe even less ressources for a new raid or dungeon.

[Pann]

I give up with you; your argument is greedy and entitled and you have made some sweeping generalisation about what is best for the game based your own biased viewpoint. You have clearly experienced some form of exclusion or ridicule ingame, which I do not condone, and have decided that whole sections of the game should be changed and/or removed from the game to suit your pampered whims. You would have no reason to call for the removal of heroic raiding otherwise. you should buck up, improve yourself and prove yourslef capable if you want to see the hardest content the game offers, not cry about it being there and inaccessible. Do you go into shops and ask for expensive items you can't afford to be reduced in price because you don't have enough money?

You are a shining example of what has crept in to the bottom levels of the game: entitlement, arrogance and meanspiritedness.

Interesting that you say that you do not condone ridicule whilst at the same time calling him "greedy, entitled, arrogant and mean spirited" as well as accusing him of crying and being poor.

Just how is he mean spirited? He and millions like him are paying for the content that you and thousands of others enjoy without them and their money you'd have no content. There is nothing mean spirited or entitled about asking a company to use your own money to satisfy your enjoyment before others and by the same token Blizzard is perfectly entitled to ignore his wants and needs but do not be surprised that when millions like him take their money elsewhere they have sudden change of heart and start to put his desires before yours.

[billielecter]

I don't think your personal-attack will help you to make a clear statement. You think H-modes will remain, but I think it will change. Don't you think H-modes should be more friendly to majority rather than being an exclusive content to minority? This game is getting more classified than before. Wow is losing the fun of meeting new friends and at the same time it's not welcoming new players. Simplifying this game will help to unite players again.

I give up with you; your argument is greedy and entitled and you have made some sweeping generalisation about what is best for the game based your own biased viewpoint. You have clearly experienced some form of exclusion or ridicule ingame, which I do not condone, and have decided that whole sections of the game should be changed and/or removed from the game to suit your pampered whims. You would have no reason to call for the removal of heroic raiding otherwise. you should buck up, improve yourself and prove yourslef capable if you want to see the hardest content the game offers, not cry about it being there and inaccessible. Do you go into shops and ask for expensive items you can't afford to be reduced in price because you don't have enough money?

You are a shining example of what has crept in to the bottom levels of the game: entitlement, arrogance and meanspiritedness.

[Gilian]

WoW's PvE endgame is it's #1 selling point and if you cut off the top part of it, you'll get a ripple effect which will ruin the game and cause it to get a lot less free advertisement and you'd end up losing a lot of subscribers almost immediately.

Indeed.

They don't invite top guilds to events like E3, Gamescom and Blizzcon just for laughs. It's good advertisement. Not sure why they don't use this competitive nature of these players more.
Just look at the events Athene organized where top guilds from all over the world raced through heroic DS for example. Things like that get a lot of attention and is all free advertisement for Blizzard. And all those youtube videos and social media attention... You don't get that from players doing a casual LFR or Flex.

[Deleted]

I don't think your personal-attack will help you to make a clear statement. You think H-modes will remain, but I think it will change.Don't you think H-modes should be more friendly to majority rather than being an exclusive content to minority?This game is getting more classified than before. Wow is losing the fun of meeting new friends and at the same time it's not welcoming new players. Simplifying this game will help to unite players again.

Ok, for the 10th (and last time I do not intend to continue this trolling thread), accessible hard-modes is an oxymoron. Accessible heroics right now are normals and flex. Making hard-modes more accessible doesn't accomplish anything. Maybe the first few weeks average players (bad players will still fail unless you tune them for LFR crowd) will feel great because they can raid heroics now, before they realise that this new "hard-modes" are just normals with a fancy name.

[therayeffect]

Interesting that you say that you do not condone ridicule whilst at the same time calling him "greedy, entitled, arrogant and mean spirited" as well as accusing him of crying and being poor.

Just how is he mean spirited? He and millions like him are paying for the content that you and thousands of others enjoy without them and their money you'd have no content. There is nothing mean spirited or entitled about asking a company to use your own money to satisfy your enjoyment before others and by the same token Blizzard is perfectly entitled to ignore his wants and needs but do not be surprised that when millions like him take their money elsewhere they have sudden change of heart and start to put his desires before yours.

Making the game easier has sure gotten those sub numbers to rise to an all-time high hasn't it! Sarcasm off. There's no reason why people can't do heroic at all if they have the time to play the game in any real amount. Making the game even easier than it already is won't make people stay. Outside of time/real life things, there's no reason why someone can't do heroic, they just need to put the effort into the game. If you don't want to put the effort then heroic isn't for you. No other game seems to cater to casuals as hard as WoW does and yet they cry for more.