Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon.

[GoldNSilence]

They should have different alternatives to gearing up. Timeless Isle for the soloers and Heroic Dungeons for the dungoneers. Play how you want, the end results will be the same when it's time to raid.

[Glorious Leader]

If they thought that deterministic options were better, they would have stuck with the ones that they introduced. They didn't, and likely for good reasons.



This is a giant blob of opinion that doesn't fit very well with player habits. As for PvP, specifically, you have ratings systems and gigantic throbbing balance concerns stopping anything other than a deterministic gearing system from being implemented. And when I'm talking about "meta", I'm not talking about the game's meta. I'm talking about ideas on a meta level, where you're only taking ideas on a very personal level and imposing your "x = good and y = bad" ideas on the playerbase. As I said, things like Diablo are living proof that non-deterministic systems have a big draw to them. A wholly "grind + determinism" model for WoW just doesn't sound like the kind of thing that would be popular or interesting. I certainly wouldn't play a game like that.

They obviously didn't think they were better but guess what? They were WRONG. Yes i know it's shocking but it's true. Diablo has many many ways offset non deterministic systems. Trade being the primary one. Luckily for you the game has never been "wholly grind + determinism" it offered those options in the past and that's all it needed to do. Instead of curtailing them it should have been expanded. You can keep killing bosses for loot,especially at heroic lvls where the gear was never awarded through valor anyway.

I've been talking meta game all day ironically you are just imposing your ideas. You seem to think that more people will enjoy the shitty regressive model where everything or mostly everything is entirely rng and not in the player interest. You sight the fact that the developers chose this over more determinism of proof that one meta would be more popular than the other when really it's just proof of poor decision making on the part of the developers. You insisted earlier that the problem was people would exhaust the content and they'd have nothign to do. Well that's not a player problem or a popularity issue. In fact it's proof of popularity (in so far as popularity is defined as that which people do). It is in fact a developer problem. I mean you accuse me of thinking outside the bubble but you can't accept that designs that work in player favour (like valour and justice) would be extremely popular with players. You're honestly telling me that people are in favor of a loot system that is not in their interest but is in actuality the interest of the developers? It makes you a massive hypocrite unless you can tell me you KNOW for certain that the sum entirety of people playing warcraft are absolutely die hard in love with rng. No you can't? The only evidence you can offer is the poor developer decisions? Well sorry I don't accept that. That's not evidence of anything other than you and the developers think alike and could both very well be wrong.

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You are wholly convinced that a deterministic system is superior and, as far as I can tell, this is based on your own personal preference for a gear progression system. Chance-based loot isn't the most convenient system, but the most convenient system doesn't necessarily make for the most popular or fulfilling system, and other games - including Diablo - demonstrate the benefit, and perhaps even need, for chance elements.

You are wholly convinced that non deterministic systems are superior and as far as I can tell this is based on nothing more than the fact the developers share this opinion. Chance based loot is a terrible system that robs players of any feeling of power and ultimately robs the immersion of kililng the horde for loot more than any vendor ever did.

Ironically Diablo is proof that systems to offset rng are insanely popular. Trading is a good example. Ironically you talk about popularity as if you have some clue but also have the nerve to tell me to think outside my bubble..

[RickJamesLich]

Immersion is robbed when the boss drops the same piece of shit over and over again and nobody in your raid needs it. When you disenchant half the fucking loot in a raid because it's not something anybody needs or because you've already got it then immersion about killing the horde for loot dies pretty fucking quickly. Or when the bag of gold drops for you on the 30th coin you've spent or your lfr just keeps putting out bags of gold and nothing but that.

Giving out tier was exactly warrented as a way to offset shitty rng. The WELCOME side effect was that people outside of the raid could also purchase this gear. Why any of this was a problem for people who raided or for the developers I will never know. You could of course just simple kill bosses and ignore the valor vendor but that wasn't enough. IT had to get neutered to serve the needs of some tiny few players.

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Ironically when I was buying gear through dungeon farming/valor spending I wasn't single playing this game. What a crock... IoT and TI forget about it though. All single player baby.

We all encounter bosses that drop stuff you don't need, but that's 1 boss in a raid lol. How many times do you have that where it happens over and over and over? Bags of gold suck, I agree, not even sure why blizzard implemented them, but random loot is just what happens in this game. As I said, if the boss always dropped loot that you needed, a lot of people would stop playing once they geared up. WoW's gotta have some sort of carrot on the stick, and this one is probably better than a lot of the other options.



As for giving out tier, items like tier, weapon, or trinkets are a huge deal, the developers have said so themselves. It wouldn't be very interesting if you could just buy this stuff. I mean for example, if you could buy a weapon with VP, everyone would just buy it immediately.... I get the whole "well its' cool because I got my weapon" thing, but guaranteeing stuff like that IMO is not nearly as cool as the thrill of winning it when it does drop.



As for the single player game, in LFD I wouldn't call that stuff team work. Yes, you are in a dungeon with 4 other people, but I can literally run 50 of them and go without anyone coming up with some sort of strategy, or just having a pleasant conversation even lol. That is a far cry from the group activities that long time players are used to.

[Glorious Leader]

We all encounter bosses that drop stuff you don't need, but that's 1 boss in a raid lol. How many times do you have that where it happens over and over and over? Bags of gold suck, I agree, not even sure why blizzard implemented them, but random loot is just what happens in this game. .

No it isn't just what happens in this game. First of all for years it was offset better then it was today but secondly it's not a law of nature. If you had developers who were actually forward thinking you would see that it's just not the way it is. yes wow has got to have some carrot on a stick but guess what? RNG makes for a poor fucking carrot. The valor vendor made for an insanely good one.

The human mind has a tendency to focus on negative experiences. While it may be a thrill to have won that one item the reality is that this not often offset by the constant denial that occurs in a system which is entirely based around rng and not your ability or skill or influence as a player.

[PrairieChicken]

I don't understand. Are you talking about LFR? I don't really take that into account when discussing actual loot.

But yeah, LFR can be frustrating because the bosses suck, the fights suck, the people suck and when you don't get anything you're left with nothing at all. What was originally meant to help people see the content has turned into a misery fest, and I think it's because people run it for gear. So when nothing drops for them, there's nothing to be happy about, because you already hate every one else in the group and the fact that they "took your loot".

I don't care that people get loot from it, but I think having loot drop in LFR is one of the reasons it sucks so much for people. They're "supposed" to go there to see content, but the reality is people go for loot and it's just miserable. If you go expecting to see content, you're rewarded. If you go expecting to see loot, you're usually in for a bad time.

At least in flex you can create your own groups, have a little control and civility, and even though it usees the same drop system, you hopefully had a decent experience along the way.

And in real raids you get the enjoyment of being a part of a team (most of the time), and get to see your team improve each time, even if it's not specifically going to you.

LFR has been terrible especially since pandaria as there was no alternatives for catching up and the drop rates were horrendous.

That's why I want dungeons back. LFR can stay as long as they give me other ways to gear up (more faster and less random than TI)

[Eats Compost]

They obviously didn't think they were better but guess what? They were WRONG. Yes i know it's shocking but it's true. Diablo has many many ways offset non deterministic systems. Trade being the primary one. Luckily for you the game has never been "wholly grind + determinism" it offered those options in the past and that's all it needed to do. Instead of curtailing them it should have been expanded. You can keep killing bosses for loot,especially at heroic lvls where the gear was never awarded through valor anyway.

Hanging around for one final post.

Trade in Diablo does little to offset the chance element on the whole, and one of the biggest problems with Diablo 3 was the lessened chance element thanks to the auction house; thus it being removed for RoS. It was a big point of criticism for the game, and demonstrates what I'm talking about.

I've been talking meta game all day ironically you are just imposing your ideas. You seem to think that more people will enjoy the shitty regressive model where everything or mostly everything is entirely rng and not in the player interest. You sight the fact that the developers chose this over more determinism of proof that one meta would be more popular than the other and really I've got the problem trying to force my ideas on others. I mean you accuse me of thinking outside the bubble but you can't accept that designs that work in player favor (like valor and justice) would be extremely popular with players. It makes you a massive hypocrite unless you can tell me you KNOW for certain that the sum entirety of people playing warcraft are absolutely die hard in love with rng. No you can't? The only evidence you can offer is the poor developer decisions? Well sorry I don't accept that. That's not evidence of anything other than you and the developers think alike and could both very well be wrong.

This is a game, not an occupation. RNG, contrary to your insistence, can be a good thing, and maybe even a necessary thing. Retaining player interest in the game isn't as simple as feeding them upgrades over time, and predictability can very easily wear out players.

Blizzard has two things that you (and I) don't; a vested financial interest in the success of the game, and a wealth of information upon which to base their decisions. If RNG was bad and determinism was good, they'd have started axing it when they started making the game more accessible. I understand that it's not for everyone - you being proof of this - but Blizzard's own decision to shy away from and never fully embrace deterministic features words speaks miles about the community's general reaction to it.

Combine that with how generally popular chance elements and gambling are, and it becomes pretty clear to me that it really is an integral part of what gets people hooked on the game. Could they be wrong? Yes, but you're probably more likely to be wrong than they are, and it makes sense when looking at precedents.

And with that, I'm gone.

[Louis CK]

No it isn't just what happens in this game. First of all for years it was offset better then it was today but secondly it's not a law of nature. If you had developers who were actually forward thinking you would see that it's just not the way it is. yes wow has got to have some carrot on a stick but guess what? RNG makes for a poor fucking carrot. The valor vendor made for an insanely good one.

The human mind has a tendency to focus on negative experiences. While it may be a thrill to have won that one item the reality is that this not often offset by the constant denial that occurs in a system which is entirely based around rng and not your ability or skill or influence as a player.

In 8 years of playing, I've never found one other person who wanted everything to come from a vendor. Not once. You're the first. And you don't even play.

Now, either I've been extremely sheltered in my WoW experience, and you've got huge amounts of statistical data that I don't, or the system works just fine, and people enjoy it just fine... Except for you.

I would suggest staying away from the game, and find something that rewards you with little to no effort except for time spent. From your arguments, this is more what you're looking for.

I'm not sure what MMO offers that, though.

Best of luck, and I hope you find it.

[Agoonga]

After gearing 2 character to SoO ilvl before 5.4 I was happy with an easier and faster alternative.

[Ilgalar]

they both have their advantages. new dungeons and timeless isle that is.

[RickJamesLich]

In 8 years of playing, I've never found one other person who wanted everything to come from a vendor. Not once. You're the first. And you don't even play.

Now, either I've been extremely sheltered in my WoW experience, and you've got huge amounts of statistical data that I don't, or the system works just fine, and people enjoy it just fine... Except for you.

I would suggest staying away from the game, and find something that rewards you with little to no effort except for time spent. From your arguments, this is more what you're looking for.

I'm not sure what MMO offers that, though.

Best of luck, and I hope you find it.

This pretty much. We all got different opinions and such, but really? Wanting all of the items back on the valor vendor was just a boring system. Who honestly in their mind was saying "Sweet! In 3 weeks I'll be able to buy the next piece of tier" as opposed to "awesome, I just won the tier chest off this boss!" I would second the motion that GL takes a break from WoW as well lol.

[Csnyder]

there are more bosses on the isle than in any dg
not everyone enjoys dgs as you stated.....i dont like them one bit. having to que and then kill a limited amount of bosses then que again.
the mobs in dgs are 'mindless' too
and what 'new dungeons' are you talking about?

[Itisamuh]

Well, I don't really care about getting gear besides honor and conquest gear one way or another, but if I did, I'd much rather it be through the isle than dungeons. There's no right or wrong answer here, it's all preference, but with the isle I feel much more in control of what I'm doing and getting. Dungeons require groups, and I'm happier doing things on my own when I can than relying on groups to get anything done. It's fine for some of you to prefer dungeons, but stop spewing out that nonsense about it being factually better. You can't back that, and it just makes you look obnoxious.

[ablib]

The Timeless Isle is bad compared to new dungeons, because new dungeons always provided gear that was at least 1 tier old.

Timeless Isle provides worthless shit gear from the first tier of this expansion.

However the 496's that drop, and gearing via the Isle, seems relatively successful because Blizzard (and all video game companies in general) pander to their idiotic fan base and Blizzard apologetics.

If the base had an IQ above 75 they would be livid at Blizzard for trying to pass a generic ploy to get us to keep playing.

[GennGreymane]

why not both?

[Pharm]

One of Timeless Isle's biggest selling points for me is that I am able to gear up my alts through my main. I currently have a level 85 monk that I am leveling and it probably already has enough gear sitting in its mailbox to reach 496 ilvl as soon as I ding lvl 90 on it. Then off to Timeless Isle for guaranteed burden from that 1 big chest near Urdur, granting at least one 535 piece. Its just a convenient alternative.

Gearing this way opposed to some new dungeon also alleviates time that I would have to spend gearing up to first even get into those new heroic dungeons, or gold I would need to spend to increase my ilvl in order to enter the dungeon. Even in Wrath when they released 3 new dungeons with Icecrown Citadel, there were probably only a few pieces per dungeon that your class could even use. So getting a whole gear set was impossible from just these dungeons alone.

[Glorious Leader]

Hanging around for one final post.

Trade in Diablo does little to offset the chance element on the whole, and one of the biggest problems with Diablo 3

.

It actually does quite a bit so much so that in d3 the developers were shocked at how popular and widely used the AH system was. To anyone who wasn't a fucking moron though this should have been obvious. Players will always flock to alternatives when luck doesn't go their way as it didn't in d3 for quite a long time. Now ideally they'd like to have loot drop of bosses but that didn't happen in d3 for a number of reasons and guess what the rng crap fest in wow functions pretty much the same way. At least d3 had the alternative of the AH but in wow the alternatives have all been but neutered. So yes it's being removed but I will not be surprised if the complaints continue their is no alternative to rng and to be honest I expect trading will still be in a big way in d2 because player interest demands it wether or not bone headed developers acknowledge this. God you made me defend d3. Bullshit.

Rng is not a necessary thing, it isn't necessary for pvp and it isn't necessary for other rpgs. Retaining player interest in this goes out the fucking toilet with rng. Theirs far more interest in achieving goals that are readily available and not hidden behind some god damn computer system in the background.

Blizzard has a third thing you failed to mark. They have their own taste and interests which often do cloud their judgement on what sohuld be done with the game. Design is more than just about having information and a vested interest in the success of the game. It's about making decisions that you think will be best and yes it turns out the developres are fallible and are just as much subject to fault as you and I.

Could they be wrong? Yes and they are. Hell las vegas has more determinism in it than the current game does. I mean poker takes ALOT of skill to win the cash prize. The cash prize in warcraft is basically almost all determined by computers. It's closer to a slot machine but without the added benefit of free alcohol and you know being REAL.

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In 8 years of playing, I've never found one other person who wanted everything to come from a vendor. Not once. You're the first. And you don't even play.

Now, either I've been extremely sheltered in my WoW experience, and you've got huge amounts of statistical data that I don't, or the system works just fine, and people enjoy it just fine... Except for you.

I would suggest staying away from the game, and find something that rewards you with little to no effort except for time spent. From your arguments, this is more what you're looking for.

I'm not sure what MMO offers that, though.

Best of luck, and I hope you find it.

Considering how many people have played this game over the years yes I do think you're extremely sheltered. I could also say that in almost 8 years of playing this game I to have found not a single solitary soul who has said "boy I sure as shit love rng". Not once in game at any rate.

I would suggest staying away to as I've been suggesting that to my friends and family as the game is currently not suited for them. I'd be for effort over time invested but the game doesn't offer anything like that outside of raiding.

[FearXI]

Full Timeless gear at one point as in every item had a burden used on it (upgraded out).
And I pull 150k DPS, it's not the gear it's the players you run into that don't know or even care how to play their class.

Dungeons are crap they are boring and a slow step up to get into raids which lets be honest is the end goal for a new toon.
And in the end even if Blizzard made new dungeons that would drop the epic 496 gear people would be throwing the same type of fit.

[Louis CK]

One of Timeless Isle's biggest selling points for me is that I am able to gear up my alts through my main. I currently have a level 85 monk that I am leveling and it probably already has enough gear sitting in its mailbox to reach 496 ilvl as soon as I ding lvl 90 on it. Then off to Timeless Isle for guaranteed burden from that 1 big chest near Urdur, granting at least one 535 piece. Its just a convenient alternative.

Gearing this way opposed to some new dungeon also alleviates time that I would have to spend gearing up to first even get into those new heroic dungeons, or gold I would need to spend to increase my ilvl in order to enter the dungeon. Even in Wrath when they released 3 new dungeons with Icecrown Citadel, there were probably only a few pieces per dungeon that your class could even use. So getting a whole gear set was impossible from just these dungeons alone.

I can definitely see the benefit from it as a catch up method, and I wouldn't argue against its usefulness or success in this area. At the same time, I like like group activities better and I think I would be good to either have dungeons alongside it in the future or at least make more group activities within the TI model.

[Glorious Leader]

This pretty much. We all got different opinions and such, but really? Wanting all of the items back on the valor vendor was just a boring system. Who honestly in their mind was saying "Sweet! In 3 weeks I'll be able to buy the next piece of tier" as opposed to "awesome, I just won the tier chest off this boss!" I would second the motion that GL takes a break from WoW as well lol.

The same folks who are now currently saying "i'm so fucking tired of this bag of gold" or "fuck stupid fucking coins never pay off". On the other hand I do know several folks who were pleased as punch that next week they had a tier piece to look forward to. I know of far more people who were chasing say a weapon of a boss and constantly being cock blocked by it to no end of frustration and expressing that frustration in raid.

Valor is boring but constant cock block RNG OUT OF YOUR CONTROL is more interesting? This is ridiculous I can't believe you people feel this way. The system you have NO INFLUENCE OR IMPACT IN that your skill/time/ability CANNOT INFLUENCE AT ALL is more interesting then the system where you can at least have some influence?

[klaps_05]

dungeons are better as long as u dont have to wait for the queue