Why gearing in Timeless Isle is worse than new dungeon.

[Deleted]

As for searching for chests, there are a total of 6 weekly chests. The rest are gone after you loot them once. Those chests are not a viable way to get gear or experience the isle. Let alone the fact that for more than 1 of them you either have to fight through mobs to get to them or you have to farm mobs to get the key to open it. Killing rare spawns is dependent on you being at the spawn when it pops. Otherwise you'll never touch it. Yeah, camping spawns for mobs that have 30-1hr spawn timers is TONS of fun.

Still more fun than dungeons.

[Glorious Leader]

Still more fun than dungeons.

No they aren't. They are for you but that's because apparently people can enjoy shit and think it's better.

Infracted.

[Deleted]

Buying Timeless coins with JP, now that would've been excellent. Seriously, JP is the most useless thing in the game right now, except that it can be converted to honor for a 50% cost.

~1000 timeless coins for 100 JP would be a fair deal in my opinion. That would still require you to kill 42 heroic bosses for a Burden which would take more time than farming coins on the isle.

[Deleted]

I have an idea. Let's take all the gear and reward out of the island and let's see how popular the island is.

For that logic to make sense we will have to remove the rewards from dungeons as well, and see how many will run them at that point.

You have full control of what you with to kill in a dungeon, you can simple opt out and choose not to run the dungeon. I.e KILL NOTHING. I could also say if that chest you want on the island is behind several mobs then you really don't have a choice you must kill the mobs to loot it. Joining in on killing rare spawns in still killing mobs.

But you see, you don't have even close to as much control in a dungeon, if you leave you get the deserter debuff and can't requeue again. The dungeon you get is random unless you want less valor, and most bosses you kill don't even have anything that you need.

Killing one rare spawn with a fairly high reward chance vs killing lots of trash mobs in a dungeon with no reward chance, hmmm I think I will pick the rare spawn.

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No they aren't. They are for you but that's because apparently people can enjoy shit and think it's better.

That argument goes both ways. In the end it's my opinion that dungeons are worse, it's your opinion that they aren't, it doesn't really mean much other than the fact that we disagree.

Just for the sake of it, what would you think of making dungeons more difficult, and more rewarding while we are at it?

[Glorious Leader]

For that logic to make sense we will have to remove the rewards from dungeons as well, and see how many will run them at that point.



But you see, you don't have even close to as much control in a dungeon, if you leave you get the deserter debuff and can't requeue again. The dungeon you get is random unless you want less valor, and most bosses you kill don't even have anything that you need.




Killing one rare spawn with a fairly high reward chance vs killing lots of trash mobs in a dungeon with no reward chance, hmmm I think I will pick the rare spawn.

That's what the developers did. They removed the rewards from dungeons and subsequently dungeons stopped being popular.

Yes you do have that much control in a dungeon you just have to group with people and walk into the dungeon. Killing one rare spawn or clearing a dungeon and buying a piece of valor loot in the old system BEFORE THEY NERFED THE PISS OUT OF DUNGEON REWARD AND THE VALOR SYSTEM.. well yea when I can buy tier gear just from doing dungeons you better believe I'll take that over the shitty poorly itemzied rng crap fest rare spawn.

I would welcome more challenging and rewarding dungeons because I can do the challenge part easy. However I recognize that not everybody can and that's an issue and okay fine. Easy dungeons with lots of easy gear. We had that in WOtlk. It was brilliant. Piss easy heroics that let me buy raid quality loot including tier pieces. Fuck yea. It just so happens to also be EXTREMELY CASUAL FRIENDLY.

[Dakara]

Afaik, Timeless Isle is not a dungeon replacement, it's a testing ground for a "new way to do dailies" since we all hated MOP dailies so much. It's also a gear catch up mechanic to get new players/alts into SoO.

LFR is the dungeon replacement (love it or hate it).

[Deleted]

No they aren't. They are for you but that's because apparently people can enjoy shit and think it's better.

It's kinda hilarious how mad you are getting about it.

And yes, I like the Timeless Isle.
Apart from the fact that there are tons of things to do there, getting gear without being reliant on others AT ALL is quite nice.

[Deleted]

That's what the developers did. They removed the rewards from dungeons and subsequently dungeons stopped being popular.

Yes you do have that much control in a dungeon you just have to group with people and walk into the dungeon. Killing one rare spawn or clearing a dungeon and buying a piece of valor loot in the old system BEFORE THEY NERFED THE PISS OUT OF DUNGEON REWARD AND THE VALOR SYSTEM.. well yea when I can buy tier gear just from doing dungeons you better believe I'll take that over the shitty poorly itemzied rng crap fest rare spawn.

I would welcome more challenging and rewarding dungeons because I can do the challenge part easy. However I recognize that not everybody can and that's an issue and okay fine. Easy dungeons with lots of easy gear. We had that in WOtlk. It was brilliant. Piss easy heroics that let me buy raid quality loot including tier pieces. Fuck yea.

Wrath had a terrible system, hated it. Far too much gear for far too little effort.

As for the difficulty, that's what several difficulties are for. I suggested it earlier but I'm guessing you missed it.

Current Heroic Mode dungeons -> Regular dungeons, decent gear, valor, aoe-fest, queue up.
New mode---------------------> Heroic Dungeons, better gear, more valor, difficulty set around early cataclysm dungeons meaning crowd control, interrupts, and a brain is required. Premade group required.
Challenge mode----------------> Stays the way it is.

It just so happens to also be EXTREMELY CASUAL FRIENDLY.

Are you saying Timeless Isle isn't? It's ridiculously easy and by definition a casual doesn't have much time on their hands, in such a scenario Timeless Isle is actually even more casual friendly because you don't even need to worry about any queue times.

[Deleted]

The timeless isle concept is pretty cool but if it was more dinamic it would have been better, like chest puzzles, more jumping puzzles, chests to random spawn, rares to spawn in different points all the time, beacause now it's get on the isle kill evermaw > kill ship > kill huolon >jerk of next 10 minutes and look for another rare maby > kill evermaw > repeat. at least on my server.

[Glorious Leader]

Wrath had a terrible system, hated it. Far too much gear for far too little effort.

Wrath had the best gearing system this game has seen since well ever. Every subsequent revision to the wrath system has simple been to decimate and shove it back in the box and casual players (players in general actually) are not stupid. In fact the gutting that's occured to valor and justice is TERRIBLE and is really just a means to shove people into raiding. It was so rewarding and it made the entire game experience that much more solid. I'm not surprised some folks think it was terrible, hopeless addicts and elitist pigs who either run out of content or lament and moan the spread of so called "welfare" epics. For everyone else this situation was FANTASTIC and didn't need any change what so ever. It wasn't broke and it didn't need fixing.

I'm okay with dungeons being harder but what I'm not okay with is them being marginalized and more importantly the valor /justice system being gutted. If hard dungeons were a problem then make them easy but don't gut the valor/justice system and don't gut their rewards because of it. In the end that's how you get mist heroics.

[Thelxi]

I wouldn't compare timeless isle gearing to dungeon gearing, since 496 gear is way worse than any last tier of expansion dungeon gear ever was relative to normal gear. Only 535 gear comes close to how powerful dungeon gear used to be, and 535 gear takes much more time than any dungeons ever did.

I would however compare LFR gearing to old dungeon gearing since the gear is relatively very close, and I would much prefer to do dungeons at my own pace for 528 gear than to have to deal with enormous queues every week on every alt AND a weekly lockout for the same shitty preraid gear that used to be provided by dungeons.

[Grimtide]

I would have preferred new dungeons, because even if I didn't need gear from them I'd (probably) still have fun doing them. Sure have fond memories of the 3.3 dungeons and 4.3 weren't too bad either. I only really go to Timeless Isle in hope that there is a group for Ordon, which there usually isn't.

[Deleted]

Wrath had the best gearing system this game has seen since well ever. Every subsequent revision to the wrath system has simple been to decimate and shove it back in the box and casual players (players in general actually) are not stupid. In fact the gutting that's occured to valor and justice is TERRIBLE and really just a means to shove people into raiding.

I'm okay with dungeons being harder but what I'm not okay with is them being marginalized and more importantly the valor /justice system being gutted. If hard dungeons were a problem then make them easy but don't gut the valor/justice system and don't gut their rewards because of it. In the end that's how you get mist heroics.

Wrath dungeon reward system: Skip all previous raiding tiers, gear up with gear shortly bellow the raiding gear at no effort with very little time input = people will get bored and quit real damn fast because content isn't developed fast enough. We primarily saw it in Cataclysm.

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I would have preferred new dungeons, because even if I didn't need gear from them I'd (probably) still have fun doing them. Sure have fond memories of the 3.3 dungeons and 4.3 weren't too bad either. I only really go to Timeless Isle in hope that there is a group for Ordon, which there usually isn't.

Can't you use Oqueue for that if your server is low populated?

[jazzyy]

Timeless Isle is fucking amazing holy shit what a glorious place.

I love it because:

wPvP is back on my Alliance-sided server. I regularly form Ordos Coin groups for funzies.
You can't just AoE mobs down. Bullfrogs, Tigers, Ordos cult members are strong or provide mechanics that prevent that.
There are elite spawns that require not standing still and spanking
Dozens of people in there. There's always a conversation going on (though due to the toxicity of WoW's playerbase it's usually raging about ganks)
Fun daily (Timeless Question)
Player interaction (Hey did anyone get Plate gloves off of ship?)
TONNES OF RARES
TONNES OF VANITY ITEMS
A rep grind that will last ages for this tier. Who knows who will have that cloud serpent first, eh?
The cool intricacies of the isle are great (crane statue for instance)
edit: oh shit and the amazing world boss mechanics are fun and such a step up from shit like oondasta.

I find it fun, personally. Much better than dungeons.

The only thing I'd like is at least one or two more dailies, the "Kill 20 elite mobs" is fairly lame. I'm not saying "We should have 3 dailies" I'm saying it should rotate. Maybe one day kill 20 mobs, another day is a treasure hunt, etc.

[reef]

i agree with you op. i think the timeless isle is horrible design. nothing about it interests me whatsoever. i'd rather do a daily grind every day than deal with the timeless isle. i would have also liked to see new instances considering we've had the same ones since the start of the expansion and they decided it would be a great idea just to make scenarios instead.

using the timeless isle to gear alts is filled with too much rng. rng to loot an armor token that you need from both a mob and an armor cache on top of rng to get a burden of eternity (unless you grind to buy one) on top of rng with what stats you get on the item. i spent between 10-12 hours over the past few weeks looking for a mail belt. instead, i found 6 burdens, and every other piece of gear for every other armor type.

i would suggest a few things that would make timeless isle a little less unappealing.
-they should sell timeless armor tokens instead of armor caches to relieve some of the rng.
-if they decided to at least allow burdens to be used on an item after it has been created, then it would relieve a little bit of the rng.

all of this rng is probably intentional, but its what makes the isle incredibly unappealing for me.

[Glorious Leader]

Wrath dungeon reward system: Skip all previous raiding tiers, gear up with gear shortly bellow the raiding gear at no effort with very little time input = people will get bored and quit real damn fast because content isn't developed fast enough. We primarily saw it in Cataclysm.

TI is basically skip all previous raiding tiers fyi. Now at least in wrath the system provided an ALTERNATIVE TO RAIDING but TI just lets you skip the previous tiers and shoves you into the current lfr raid. IT's WORSE by about a million. If by "people" you mean hopeless addicts who put 25+ hours a week into this game then yes I imagine they did get bored and unsub. Actually I take that back they don't unsubscribe, most just do it on alts because they are in fact hopeless addicts who can't imagine doing anything else anyway. For everybody else this was a perfect system though. It gave them something to work towards (buying the pieces of loot they wanted without being subject to atrocious rng) in the time frame they liked and it meant that their individual hour of play was actually extremely rewarding. Coupled with EASY instances and relatively EASY raids it was alot of fun with very little resistance or hastle in the way which I'm sure for some tiny ass minority of the player base meant that wrath was not fun.

Every subsequent change to this system has basically been to try and bury it and it's only cost the developer subscriptions. It is the ROOT of the lack of "casual engagement" (burying and demolishing casual friendly systems for virtually no reason) and of course casual players didn't stand for the BS because they could tell it for what it was.

[Baracuda]

Timeless isle made me want to watch paint dry because I was so bored I needed something comparatively active to do.

That's how boring timeless isle is. I would rather eat myself sick on baby puke, proceed to wash it down with formaldehyde, cut of my testicles and prostate myself on a web cam, than set foot on that horrible horrible soul killing boredom of an isle.

This is basically the definition of talking the talk but not walking the walk.

[Deleted]

TI is basically skip all previous raiding tiers fyi.

I'm quite aware of that.

Now at least in wrath the system provided an ALTERNATIVE TO RAIDING

Timeless Isle is an alternative to raiding as well.

but TI just lets you skip the previous tiers and shoves you into the current system.

And the current system that is so horrible is... what exactly? LFR? Flex? No dungeons?

IT's WORSE by about a million.

In your opinion.

If by "people" you mean hopeless addicts who put 20+ hours a week into this game then yes I imagine they will.

No, I pretty much mean completely regular people who barely even raid. It was one of the, if not the most common complaint in Cataclysm that there wasn't enough to do. It's the entire reason Blizzard has been working their ass off to deliver content faster this expansion.

Actually I take that back they don't unsubscribe, most just do it on alts because they are in fact hopeless addicts who can't imagine doing anything else anyway.

Right...

For everybody else this was a perfect system though. It gave them something to work towards (buying the pieces of loot they wanted without being subject to atrocious rng) in the time frame they liked.

The RNG is a necessity to make sure the content is relevant for a long enough time for them to develop new content.

Coupled with EASY instances and relatively EASY raids it was alot of fun with very little resistance or hastle in the way which I'm sure for some tiny ass minority of the player base meant that wrath was not fun.

In your opinion, in my opinion if something is that easy then it's so boring that it's barely even worth doing, and I will avoid it the best I can.

Furthermore, Timeless Isle is really easy, even more casual friendly than Wrath was, and you have access to both Flex and LFR which are both really easy versions of the raid, so I really don't see how it's so horrible right now compared to during Wrath for you, since you enjoy doing piss easy content.

[Deleted]

I love dungeons and I love Timeless Island, both are fun to do. : ) Though Timeless is easier to gear up alts, so run around there often. A new dungeon would take ages to gear up, cause one dungeon might only have 1-2 pieces that you need, and not 100% drop and when they DO drop someone else can need them, or just ninja them, making it a pain to even get gear. Though I otherwise love HCs as well, do I like Timeless Isle cause it helps a lot with gearing. : )

[Manabomb]

I never spent 4 hours looking for a CC. It meant you actually had to develop relationships so that you had a friends list of people to call on. Low pop servers can greatly benefit from cross realm groups facilitated by cross realm zones. You pay $15 dollars a month to play the game as much as you can as well as you can. It's not a companies job to say, well you're paying to play so I should just let you beat the game(what they've done with LFR). You should still have to put in the effort to get better at the game and actually conquer it. The idea that all players pay so they should all get the same experience is ridiculous. If we're going to head down that path then every character should get every mount/pet handed to them as they build up time in game. Same with gear. Otherwise what's the point of them paying their 15 a month like the people who have all those things?

Alright, well. Unfortunately the majority of the time I developed relationships for friends was not while looking for random guyX to fill in trivial content on an alt, but while you know, raiding. That portion of the game that arguably matters more than... "trivial 5 man gearing up to raid and alt gearing too" content.

Good for you, never having to wait for 4 hours looking for some idiot that wouldn't fuck up mechanic X, Y or Z and still managed to pull decent numbers. That's great man, really. But that doesn't mutually exclude the fact that not only did it happen, it happened often enough to VALIDATE BLIZZARD IMPLEMENTING LFD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Maybe I need to scream it at you, I don't know. I'm just going to ignore the tidbit about how low pop servers can be improved by crz, yet crz tech came an expansion and a half after lfd.

Also, your asinine argument about how a company doesn't have the job to give you a playable game YOU payed for is... well, asinine. Like, you pay to play this game yeah? Does this game not offer you the challenge you seek in a game at different levels? How is that, when we have lfd 5 mans, challenge modes, lfr, flex, normal mode, heroic mode, solo content, solo boss content (brawler's guild if you didn't catch me) and hell, even bloody world bosses which i was surprised they even considered bringing it back, yet with faction tag have made it an actual decent implementation. It's a companies job to give it's fan base a game as to which a majority can succeed somewhat at the game in their own level, much akin to how a lot of games have an "easy, medium and hard" mode settings. Just because you can power house through every game ever on HARD TO THE MAX difficulty, doesn't mean everyone else wants to. Additionally, Lfr raiding compared to normal mode raiding on a difficulty or even social setting are not transferable. Mechanics are easier, people are stupider and overall LFR is there as a gear buffer into more difficult content or for those who don't want to raid to see the content they spend 15$ a month for. Limiting them to just solo questing and lfd 5 mans is like saying "hey we are going to remove all the cover from this cover based shooter because you're not good enough." Insert better analogy here, I'm ranting, I'm tired, and I'm actually frustrated enough to be giving a damn to risk my arthritis to tell you how you're wrong.

And moving onward picking apart every piece of your conjecture and throwing it back at you with facts, let's move on to getting everything handed to us. Do you have the wolf from killing Garrosh normal? I sure don't. Neither does anyone else that hasn't killed Garrosh normal. Are lfr kids killing Garrosh normal? No? Then HOW is everyone getting everything handed to them?

At this point, I'd ask you if you're trolling, which is almost palpably obvious, however that would completely un-justify what little point your argument holds and that point is people are bad at mechanics stay at the bottom levels of gameplay. It's not a secret, been that way for years. Just because there are systems in place for bad people to feel like they are doing good, like some kind of mental disability school, does not mean you, someone with perhaps 1/4 of a functioning brain, should ruin their day by saying they get to do it on hard or go home.

On that note, from a market analyst point of view, if Blizzard were to do any of things you say they think they should, not only would the sub rates tank faster than a tank in water, but it would only prove for them to release content at a much slower pace. And then you would bitch about that, wouldn't you?