When did raiding become more of a job than fun?

[Deleted]

Why? It's, what, 7 or 8 bosses in an evening. The point of raiding isn't always to race, race, race. We had fun, joked around, and killed a bunch of bosses with no drama and very few issues. A few of us got some gear and we all felt good about the run. Could we be up all stick up the ass "540 or GTFO!? Sure, and that would save a little time and we'd be whiny asshats who value speed over fun.

If your point is that we were slow by some jerkwad heroic raider standards, yeah, so? You're just proving the OP's point - that a lot of people keep forgetting this is a GAME. The point isn't to do it as a chore, as fast as possible. It's to have FUN.

That whooshing sound? That was OP's point flying right over your head.

Everyone to their own opinion dude. You find it funny to spend that long in Flex - I don't. What makes you more right than me?

I don't forget that this is a game, I just don't want to carry random bad players. I invited like 6-7 socials to a full Flex run this night and only had a few boosters. That would never have been the case with randoms, since I owe random players nothing. That doesn't make me a bad person or an elitist whiny asshat though. That just mean, I chose to spend my time helping guildies and if I need to pug, I sure as hell won't carry bads doing less than 100k.

Call me elitist, whiny or w/e all you want, it still doesn't make you more right than me or anyone else. Cause after all this is a game remember and in this game, I'm free to do as I chose, free to play with the people I chose, free to set minimum requirements for pugs as I chose and free to kick bads who can't carry their own weight - all so I can have a faster run.

That's the great thing about Flex, nobody forces you to run with players you don't want to. It's not like LFR where you can't really do much about random players being shit, being abusive or afk.

Tl;dr: Your way of having fun is definitely not my way of having fun.

[Khalus]

Hasn't it always been this way!?

Is one of the primary reasons I never got into raiding, because of the required schedule. Reality is bad enough, I'm playing games to relax and have fun!

[The One Percent]

You didn't raid in BC if you think that it was more of a job now than it was then. I play less than I ever have in my time since beta and I'm 6/14H.

[Kraenen]

for me it was sometime during vanilla. raiding MC for loot, with DKP, with several other hunters.....yeah...then BWL came and things only got more time sucking

[Vongimi]

That's just the sign the game is getting old for you :P I had that awhile ago, now I play far more casual and try not to do anything that makes it feel like a job anymore. If I say "gah I really don't want to do instance X for reward Y" to myself, than I figure its probably not worth it Unless I am excited to get the reward thus excited to do the instance. Another big thing is lowering the amount of "maintenance" you have to do in game. Don't play alts, try and get out of the habit of farming LFR for that one item that is 1 of 6 that drop from a particular boss, dont worry about getting valor capped, if you dont PvP much, stop doing arenas to get points for the week, among other things. Try and reduce the time you spend in game and the little time you do spend will be more fun. Atleast thats what worked for me :P And you can always cancel your sub until more content comes out. Thats what I am doing as well.

[tratra]

Totally agree with the OP. I think everything started when people started caring about the meters. Then theorycrafting hit the wall, some sites popped out, blizz turned the game into a more "theorycrafting game" by gems ref etc... but also the game evolved. Its as every game,sport or whatever, when its been played for so long the skill level goes through the rooftop and you have to follow.

I quited wow and raiding long time ago since there is no fun for me anymore in there... sorry but during vanilla and tbc i used to raid top tier calling my friends to come over raid together, have a pizza watch some tv while raiding and it was rly fun ( was going good as well considering that the guild still exists and its top1) but afterwards everything became sad... The game and raiding needed much more focus, cant say i enjoyed ulduar and ICC but at the start of Cata i said thats it for me guys ill go social and alt-raid with the 4th or 5th altraid with u just for teh lolz.

I can't really play a game that asks me not to BLINK MY EYE for 8+ minutes just to see pixels getting defeated. Thats what happened nowadays when u do HC modes most of em you need to perform like u'd do in an arena match and its lost its fun... Maybe also I am getting older and I feel like yep i don't need a 2ond job.

Though to be honest mate raiding was always a 2ond job if u were raiding on TOP...I remember playing 7/7 days 15 hours a day back then, even getting calls while in my work to log and go kill azuregos, i mean it was always a 2ond job but it was WAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY more fun, and in 40 man raiding especially ur guild didn't need u... 20 man could do it and that was the fun of it (u wouldnt care if u wanted to just slack in a fight play casually not giving 150% of urself and just enjoy the fight without using specific rotations like a robot to have the best outcome, and ur guild wouldn't also care)

[clevin]

Everyone to their own opinion dude. You find it funny to spend that long in Flex - I don't. What makes you more right than me?

I wasn't talking to you in that reply. I don't give a fuck what you do if you have fun. I was replying to someone why took the bullshit, whiny, stick up the ass attitude that their way of playing was THE way which is precisely the point OP was making if you read the topic. You want to grab a bunch of 550 friends and blow through Flex? Fine. I don't. Don't give me shit for playing how I like and with who I like.

And next time you bitch at me, read. Don't flick shit at me when I'm not talking to you. People like you who go to flex to, well /flex at the bads are pathetic.

[Deleted]

It's funny how people that want meters and itemlvl to go away are always the ones that say only skill matters. If you are so skillful what does it matter if a meter tracks if you are pulling your weight or an itemlvl number is attached to your name? How hard is it to understand 9-15 other people don't want to waste time because you (the avg joe who doesn't know anything about any fight) can't be arsed to pull your own weight.

[clevin]

It's funny how people that want meters and itemlvl to go away are always the ones that say only skill matters. If you are so skillful what does it matter if a meter tracks if you are pulling your weight or an itemlvl number is attached to your name? How hard is it to understand 9-15 other people don't want to waste time because you (the avg joe who doesn't know anything about any fight) can't be arsed to pull your own weight.

It goes back to Wrath when people wanted a given gearscore and often didn't meet it themselves. And fuck off with the "the avg joe who doesn't know anything about any fight" bullshit. Outside of LFR most people know the fights reasonably well and, well, ilevel doesn't imply knowing the fights or being good. I've seen 540 people who are average because they're being carried.

[Deleted]

I wasn't talking to you in that reply. I don't give a fuck what you do if you have fun. I was replying to someone why took the bullshit, whiny, stick up the ass attitude that their way of playing was THE way which is precisely the point OP was making if you read the topic. You want to grab a bunch of 550 friends and blow through Flex? Fine. I don't. Don't give me shit for playing how I like and with who I like.

And next time you bitch at me, read. Don't flick shit at me when I'm not talking to you.

I know very well, you weren't replying to me, yet your post is still BS. You're calling someone a whiny asshat for not wanting to carry bads. And just because the OP has an opinion and starts (yet another) topic about Flex, that doesn't make him right either.

How can you be this biased? You tell the dude you replied to, that "he took the bullshit, whiny, stick up the ass attutde" - why isn't he entitled to play the way he wants as well as you are? You tell me to "not give you shit for playing how you like and with who you like", yet you're doing exactly that to the dude you replied to.

The dude you replied to has an attitude that many people have - myself included. Why waste time with bad players or poorly geared players, if you can speed run it with geared players? I don't give a shit, if that sort of mentality doesn't fit you, but that still doesn't make it wrong.

So stop lashing out after other people for the way they chose to manage their Flex pugs, when you don't want others to lash out at you.


"Galakras to Thok in 2:45 is absolutely brutal. You spent almost 3 hours doing half a flex SoO. That's insane."

That's what Shmeh said and to that you go emo and call his attitude for jerkwad Heroic raider standard. Guess what, 2 hours and 45 mins. is fucking slow and way too slow for a lot of players. Thus they just group with like minded people. Get it now?

[endersblade]

Erm...since day one? That's the reason I don't raid. I have a job that pays ME, I'm not going to pay for a job. Raiding takes too much effort, and that, to me, makes it a job.

[Deleted]

WotLK in 3.1, when raiding started to require actual skill.

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It goes back to Wrath when people wanted a given gearscore and often didn't meet it themselves. And fuck off with the "the avg joe who doesn't know anything about any fight" bullshit. Outside of LFR most people know the fights reasonably well and, well, ilevel doesn't imply knowing the fights or being good. I've seen 540 people who are average because they're being carried.

540 is really low though. How often do you see a clueless 560 compared to a clueless 530?

[Dreknar20]

Let skill become the only factor.

because there is totally a reliable way to 'rate' people's skill?

[Deleted]

WotLK in 3.1, when raiding started to require actual skill.

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540 is really low though. How often do you see a clueless 560 compared to a clueless 530?

This exactly. I don't believe that the tone among the players have changed much since Wrath. The difference from then to now, is that there's a lot fewer player and that with the amount of information available on how to play your class or how to kill X boss, it really sucks when you run into pugs who fail non stop or despite their 540 ilvl and Legendary cloak can barely do 150k.

If we didn't have ilvl, we'd have something else or we'd just Armory everyone before inviting.

[Dreknar20]

but requiring 540 ilvl for flex when it drops 540 ilvl is extremely unreasonable. You might as well run a guild run at that point.

then form your own group, or find a crappier group

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Hasn't it always been this way!?

more or less
Once you get into raiding, Wow becomes more than just a game and more of a hobby

[Deleted]

I don't agree with the OP at all. I don't raid much now, but I used to raid a little in vanilla and back then it was far more of a second job than it is now. Every class had one or two viable specs at most and it would take you weeks if not months to get enough loot to be ready to start raiding on a freshly dinged character. Yes, I do think raid leaders are more strict about the entry requirements to start raiding when it comes to your ilvl, but that is simply a product of entry level raiding gear being so much easier to obtain nowadays. If you are not at least 540+ before trying to join a SoO normal raid, then you are not really serious about raiding in the first place, which of course is fine, I only just got 535 ilvl myself, but it's no different from raid leaders requiring you to have 200+ fire resistance before joining Molten Core in the old days, for instance.

Also, everything from grinding supplies to organizing the raid and getting there took much, much longer and people seemed to be a lot more pissy about loot than these days. Raiding has become a lot more relaxed than it was, in my opinion, and that's a good thing.

[Dreknar20]

If we didn't have ilvl, we'd have something else or we'd just Armory everyone before inviting.

People always have such a neagtive stance when it comes to item lvl and what not

But what the hell else are you gonna base someone on?
A PuG is trying to accomplish something as fast and painlessely as possible. Gear is the only way to judge stranger's capabilities.
Its a Pug, they are not putting people in trial runs or baby-sitting them

[IRunSoFarAway]

It doesn't feel like a job unless YOU make it feel like one, it's your own fault. The bottom line is that you always have a choice, you can do this, you can do that, you don't need to do anything. If you think you're being forced to do anything, then you have a psychological problem you need to deal with before you can continue.

[Deleted]

People always have such a neagtive stance when it comes to item lvl and what not

But what the hell else are you gonna base someone on?
A PuG is trying to accomplish something as fast and painlessely as possible. Gear is the only way to judge stranger's capabilities.
Its a Pug, they are not putting people in trial runs or baby-sitting them

Completely agree. And the thing is, that if you have a group of say 12 people and all of them are both geared and experienced and just need say an item or 2 or maybe they're on a geared alt. Then they don't want you to spam trade for just any random player. They expect that you only accept someone with at least 530+ and full experience. So even if I did want to take in one random player and help that person, the rest of the group wouldn't want that.

I mean, you can't expect completely random players to just give you the benefit of the doubt, because you personally think that they're being elitist scum if you don't. And if you don't have a decent ilvl for the group you want to join and you don't have any achievements, who's really to blame, when you're being declined? Them for not wanting to risk wiping or having to carry you or you for expecting them to carry you?

[Gandrake]

I don't really tend to go these negative routes, but its becoming more & more apparent blizzard is trying they're best to introduce every aspect to people, but requiring 540 ilvl for flex when it drops 540 ilvl is extremely unreasonable. You might as well run a guild run at that point.

itt: non raider w/o cloak complaining about not being able to acquire an invite to a flex raid comprised of raiders and lfr heroes with legendary

but the solution to your problem is very simple; make your own raid.