Hybrids (as a raiding role)

[worcester]

Some are tanks, and some are healers and others are DPS, however there are a specific group that cannot quite identify as these roles strictly. With the rise in 10m raiding and smaller rosters, some are required and expected to perform roles outside their "main" role.

Yes, i'm speaking about hybrids as a raiding role. Be it tanking on the side or healing now and then, almost every raid group has one. This post is dedicated to those who identify as such.

What class do you play - a boomkin/resto or perhaps a prot/fury warrior or even more oddly a enhance/resto shammy? (although in practical raiding, dps/healer is the most common) Or do you bring in your alt to perform your dual role?

What are your experiences performing dual roles - frustration or enjoyment?
Do you identify yourself more of a healer/dps; dps/healer or tank/dps; dps/tank? (to those who play tank/healer, you are insane)

How do you deal with loot:
1. Do you have bagspace preallocated specifically for your os gear
2. How do you take gemming/enchanting into consideration when using the same gear for either specs

More importantly:
Does your raid accommodate for your dual role - i.e. getting extra loot/tier

The intent of this post is to just get some awareness and hopefully more support from raid leaders.

As an additional thought, do you think it is fair to be looked down on by "pure dps" for lower damage that is outside of your control. (i.e. your raids hunter comparing his dps to your shadow priests and draws incorrect conclusions) and do you think its reasonable that hybrids should do less dps due to their ability to perform other roles. (melee hybrids don't specifically suffer from this though)

[Imperviable]

Do hybrids even do less damage in comparison to pure classes? I remember seeing a Blizzard post stating that there was no longer any hybrid tax.

I play a ret/holy paladin although I rarely if ever use my off spec. I keep it maintained in the off chance I do need to play it, as we only have one other off spec healer outside of our core 3.

1. Yes, I carry off spec gear around with me.
2. Doesn't really apply for holy/ret but if I had to, I would optimize for primary spec and then gem around it for off spec.

If no one needs it for main spec, I'll take it for off spec. Sometimes at the start of an expansion, de mats are too valuable to allow for that but it's usually fine.

I'm also slowly building a port set in case something happens.

[clevin]

I've raided as a pure DPS (rogue, hunter) and as a hybrid (resto druid, priest in all 3 specs). I think the hybrid role is somewhat misconceived in WoW. What I mean is that you require vasty different gear even for roles that can use the same basic stats (my resto set on the druid put me at something like 26% hit as a boomy set and is fairly crap for DPS unless I regem etc). As a hybrid, I rarely switched roles. On the priest, in Wrath, I had a shadow set and a heal set and occasionally did one role or the other in a raid and I fairly often respecced from Disc to Holy depending. But for th evast majority of a raid, I simply didn't change roles, the reason being several:

1) we had a fairly static group so I wasn't needed as a tank or dps if I had taken the heal role. I got the heal role because we had more DPS than heals at one point, so switched, but I rarely DPSed after that (this was on the priest).

2) Gearing both roles to a similar level is hard and takes a fair amount of work unless you get a lot of offspec drops during the raid. Given #1, I wasn't highly motivated to gear a spec I rarely used in raids. I did gear my shadow spec and on the druid my boomy spec so I could quest, but that's a different gear level from being able to raid as that role.

3) It's very hard to switch on the spur of the moment if you've not raided as the alternate role for weeks or months. Even if your UI converts to the new role well (mine does), you don't have immediate muscle memory, etc.

Hybrids are very good to have leveling - you can quest as dps, then tank or heal in dungeons if need be. But at 90, in raids, I think a lot of the utility goes away.

[Nobleshield]

Prot/Ret paladin; I identify as a tank but choose to DPS when appropriate or if asked. Gear-wise I willingly sacrifice effectiveness as Ret to re-use as much gear as possible between specs, making sure I meet the proper caps as Prot and not caring if I'm over Hit/Expertise as Ret.

[rhandric]

As a prot pally who sometimes (rarely) goes ret, I gear completely around prot (including hit/exp caps), and swap out weapon + occasionally trinkets for ret. I end up wasting a lot of stats on exp while in ret, but since I use the same, or mostly the same, gear for the two sets, it can't be helped.

I'm also slowly building a port set in case something happens.

If you have a ret set, you have a prot set, barring weapon+shield and potentially trinkets

[Forgettable]

I raid as DPS, but when we're short a tank (or 3tanking shamans), I'm the go to guy for my guild. That being said, whenever any tank gear drops that is not any upgrade for either of our main tanks, it goes to me. After that it becomes free roll for anyone else. In some cases, I act as an offtank for my guild while DPSing as frost. Very rare, but clutch moments cases where both tanks die, the boss auto-agros to me. Pop to blood presence, hit Icebound Fortitude, spam death strike and call for the healers to keep me up. During that time my other DK buddy will rez a tank to relieve me ASAP. Although more common places where I off tank as frost would be swapping to blood presence for Sha of Pride adds, or for adds on Nazgrim.

Considering I don't have a full actual tank set, I tank in mostly DPS gear that prioritizes crit. Not ideal for a Blood DK, but I put out some insane damage!

[Aboubacar]

No, there is no longer a "hybrid tax" which used to mean doing less damage as a trade off for utility/offheals etc. Most pures have more or equal utility to hybrids so there's no reason for Blizzard to have a system like that. Been pretty balanced since MoP in raids.

Gearing is the biggest issue for hybrids that want or need to play multiple roles. Warforge/thunderforge compounds the issue. Not only do you have to learn an entire different rotation/role, but you have to go from str to int or int to agi etc to come close to your damage as your mainspec. Pures actually have it better since typically its a reforge/gems swap like fire->arcane or Destro->aff etc.

[clevin]

Prot/Ret paladin; I identify as a tank but choose to DPS when appropriate or if asked. Gear-wise I willingly sacrifice effectiveness as Ret to re-use as much gear as possible between specs, making sure I meet the proper caps as Prot and not caring if I'm over Hit/Expertise as Ret.

But if you* raid DPS as ret in gear that is significantly non-optimized (several % over caps etc) then you're hurting your raid. Your DPS will be crap compared to a properly geared dps of similar skill and ilevel. By real DPS I don't mean just pure dps but also a hybrid who's geared for it correctly.

So I fail to see how this is a good thing for a raid - to OP's point, if I'm a RL I'd want someone like you to DPS in real, optimized DPS gear or to tank. If we don't need you to tank I'm asking a DPS to fill the slot, not you.

This is one reason I gave up DPSing as Boomy on my druid. 25% hit because of all the spirit on my resto gear screwed my DPS and wasn't something that could be cured merely by reforging. I needed a second set for the most part and since DPS is easy to find... why?

*Or anyone. This isn't a personal comment.

[Stevecow]

Boomkin/Resto here. Resto comes first.

I identify myself as a healer/dps. I will always love healing in guild raids even though I usually let the Priest and Pally do the healing while I go DPS. However in PUGs or Flex or for some reason Im just bored and want to push buttons I DPS in LFR.

I have a separate part of my bags dedicated to my gear sets. I always end up getting DPS gear last as I focus my needs on healing gear. The one thing I dislike is using the same gear for both specs. It's honestly to expensive to re-gem your gear for 1-2 fights. Because of this I will use a lower ilvl piece if I have to. This is really only an issue at the start of an expansion.

My raid does not accommodate for my DPS role. They know I will be last on the meters since Im usually 15-25 ilvl lower than the lowest DPS in the raid, so I guess my numbers are more acceptable. I'm the 6th DPS for our 10 man raid when needed. The other 2 healers (priest and pally) do not go DPS.

I don't think hunters should be comparing numbers to priest and priest shouldn't be comparing numbers to rogues. Every class should compare themselves to others of the same class (priest and priest. hunter and hunter)
Even though I am a Hybrid, I think we should never come close to numbers pure DPS do. They are pure DPS, it's what they do. They should have a benefit for only being able to perform DPS roles. If they feel like changing it up, they can't unless they have ALTs. Hybrids, should never be on the top of any Damage meter in my opinion.

[Aboubacar]

I don't think hunters should be comparing numbers to priest and priest shouldn't be comparing numbers to rogues. Every class should compare themselves to others of the same class (priest and priest. hunter and hunter)
Even though I am a Hybrid, I think we should never come close to numbers pure DPS do. They are pure DPS, it's what they do. They should have a benefit for only being able to perform DPS roles. If they feel like changing it up, they can't unless they have ALTs. Hybrids, should never be on the top of any Damage meter in my opinion.

That makes no sense whatsoever rogues/warrior/lock bring just as much to the raid as any hybrids and probably more than spriest/moonkin/feral specifically.

The most skilled, geared player, that didn't have to do any special jobs that lose a ton of damage should be topping damage. You shouldn't tax a class just because it's offspec is a different role, which is what hybrids have become. 3 different specs of different roles rather than the same role is all that makes a hybrid a hybrid.

[clevin]

That makes no sense whatsoever rogues/warrior/lock bring just as much to the raid as any hybrids and probably more than spriest/moonkin/feral specifically.

The most skilled, geared player, that didn't have to do any special jobs that lose a ton of damage should be topping damage. You shouldn't tax a class just because it's offspec is a different role, which is what hybrids have become. 3 different specs of different roles rather than the same role is all that makes a hybrid a hybrid.

I'll note that you left hunters out of the utility comparison - rightly so.

The reason for the hybrid tax back in the day was that it's FAR easier to move from one role to another as a hybrid, i.e. you have flexibility to completely change your role whereas the pure dps cannot do that at all. They've moved away from that for the most part and I think it's generally OK but, to me, a pure dps should still be slightly above hybrid dps (all else being the same). Not 10% but 2-5%. The problem is that raiders freak out at minimal differences that, for 99% of us, won't matter. As it is, if a pure falls midpack or below there's little reason to bring them unless they bring utility that isn't covered elsewhere if you're a hardcore, top 50 raid. Outside of that, it doesn't really matter that much.

[land]

MS: boomkin. And very often I pop Heart of the Wild and go full out heals for those 30 secs, usually when a healer dies or when we're progressing on a fight that doesn't need 3 heals till maybe the end. I very often toss off heals on raiders in need/out of range of healers. My dps gear is top notch, the fact that i play off spec doesn't affect my main spec loot (we run loot concil).

OS 1: resto. Often I have to cover for a missing healer and I go resto, also go resto when we 4 heal Iron Jug heroic. My healing gear is lacking and I very rarely actually get healing trinkets (we haven't seen many lately) but it is fine, I'm content in not being able to perform to the fullest/having less gear. I do reforge and have healing meta and cloak but gems and trinkets aren't good. But I don't mind, I would never compete for gear from a main healer. We are aware that my heals will be gimped but not to a point that affects our kills so w/e.

OS 2: bear. I've been slowly collecting agi gear that no one else needs and have got my self a half decent bear set. I'm a backup tank in case one of our mains can't raid. Same as resto, I was able to get the meta and cloak (both agi dps and tanking) and I'm able to perform decently. Last night I was tanking heroic Dark Shamans with the 3 tank strat.

My bags are always pretty full considering I have two and a half specs (since boomie/resto kinda same some items), however, since I don't carry pvp gear anymore i'm able to manage.

FYI one of the reasons that I play druid is for exactly, be able to perform multi roles. We were actually having a laugh last night of how crazy my utility is, especially considering we're a 10 man raid. I think I'd have already rerolled to my lock if I could only be able to dps as boomie and not go off spec resto or tank.

[Aboubacar]

I'll note that you left hunters out of the utility comparison - rightly so.

The reason for the hybrid tax back in the day was that it's FAR easier to move from one role to another as a hybrid, i.e. you have flexibility to completely change your role whereas the pure dps cannot do that at all. They've moved away from that for the most part and I think it's generally OK but, to me, a pure dps should still be slightly above hybrid dps (all else being the same). Not 10% but 2-5%. The problem is that raiders freak out at minimal differences that, for 99% of us, won't matter. As it is, if a pure falls midpack or below there's little reason to bring them unless they bring utility that isn't covered elsewhere IF you're a hardcode, top 50 raid. Outside of that, it doesn't really matter that much.

Plz stop hunters are the only class that provides an AOE sunder so at the very least one is a huge benefit for the majority of encounters. Hunters have all the benefits of being a ranged + melee but none of the drawbacks. 100% damage on the move, 1 button dot spread etc etc. Their damage is very good atm as well. Double immunity etc etc. Because of the movement I mentioned they excel at jobs like conveyor belt on blackfuse. They do not need a raid cd, they have too much utility outside of one as it is...

Mages are the only pure that's slightly behind and windwalker monk is kinda useless/bad in the hybrids department atm. Like I said pures bring heaps of utility you just need to really look at what each class/spec brings the raid and you'll understand there's no reason for a hybrid to do inherently less damage.

[clevin]

Plz stop hunters are the only class that provides an AOE sunder so at the very least one is a huge benefit for the majority of encounters. Hunters have all the benefits of being a ranged + melee but none of the drawbacks. 100% damage on the move, 1 button dot spread etc etc. Their damage is very good atm as well. Double immunity etc etc. Because of the movement I mentioned they excel at jobs like conveyor belt on blackfuse. They do not need a raid cd, they have too much utility outside of one as it is...

Mages are the only pure that's slightly behind and windwalker monk is kinda useless/bad in the hybrids department atm. Like I said pures bring heaps of utility you just need to really look at what each class/spec brings the raid and you'll understand there's no reason for a hybrid to do inherently less damage.

Re-read what I said. Hunters have a lot of advantages but very little in the way of useful raid utility. I'm NOT complaining about our damage, I WAS talking about raid utility which sucks compared to the other pure classes. Raid utility isn't what the hunter can do him/herself that is good, but what they can offer the rest of the raid members and in that area we're comparatively weak, especially in 25s. In 10s we're stronger in the sense that we can bring missing buffs including (as BM) and brez and heroism. However, even then, not that we can't bring lust/hero in any spec, just one. Shaman and mages? Any spec. Brez for locks/druids, etc? Any spec. Hunters? BM only.

But take away the need for buffs from the hunter and we don't really have much. The AOE sunder is nice, but they even gave that to rogues (albeit a weaker version). MD? Don't make me laugh.

[Deleted]

I'm a resto druid, that occasionnaly plays moonkin as a backup plan.
Like someone said before, in DPS I don't feel like I'm performing less than pure class DPS because I'm an hybrid, rather than because I use my resto stuff for my balance spec, and it's not optimized a bit for it.
Anyway, I play it only to help, so I don't feel the need to create a special set for it, or to loot anything for it. I understand though that ret/holy or likewise hybrids could loot for their offspecs since it's radically different.

[Aboubacar]

Re-read what I said. Hunters have a lot of advantages but very little in the way of useful raid utility. I'm NOT complaining about our damage, I WAS talking about raid utility which sucks compared to the other pure classes.

Next time connect your brain before hitting the keyboard.

AOE sunder/any buffs/mobility/double deterrence etc = raid utility
Raid utility is not limited to a healing/DR cooldown and there's more reasons to bring a class to a raid than that. Please actually look at the whole picture..

[Nobleshield]

But if you* raid DPS as ret in gear that is significantly non-optimized (several % over caps etc) then you're hurting your raid. Your DPS will be crap compared to a properly geared dps of similar skill and ilevel. By real DPS I don't mean just pure dps but also a hybrid who's geared for it correctly.

So I fail to see how this is a good thing for a raid - to OP's point, if I'm a RL I'd want someone like you to DPS in real, optimized DPS gear or to tank. If we don't need you to tank I'm asking a DPS to fill the slot, not you.

This is one reason I gave up DPSing as Boomy on my druid. 25% hit because of all the spirit on my resto gear screwed my DPS and wasn't something that could be cured merely by reforging. I needed a second set for the most part and since DPS is easy to find... why?

*Or anyone. This isn't a personal comment.

Well obviously. I manage to do fairly well and on par with the rest of my team, usually #4 or so on DPS and even higher on some gimmicky fights. Therefore as I'm a tank first and a DPS second, and loot has been unkind to me (As I get upgrades or sidegrades I will replace my Prot set first and use what I was using for Prot for ret instead with proper gemming/reforging) I'm okay with doing about 10-15k on average lower than I should for the sake of reuse, as I'm still doing fairly good DPS and not holding us back. If we were ultra competitive I would either request to tank fulltime or bench myself, but as we aren't I think I'm okay, especially since the reason I don't tank right now is because I got myself a replacement as I was considering leaving the guild.

I see your point, but it's not as bad as it might seem on face value. I sacrifice some DPS this is true (LOL at my using the Tank meta gem in my helm due to reusing it across both specs), but it's not like I'm slacking and not pulling my weight.

[land]

As an additional thought, do you think it is fair to be looked down on by "pure dps" for lower damage that is outside of your control. (i.e. your raids hunter comparing his dps to your shadow priests and draws incorrect conclusions) and do you think its reasonable that hybrids should do less dps due to their ability to perform other roles. (melee hybrids don't specifically suffer from this though)

That can happen, very often I go full out heals to save our raid and that will obviously hurt my dps. Also, we almost always use my Tranq as a raid cd on progression and if in itself will make ur dps suffer a little bit, but if done at a bad time (i.e. when the boss is taking extra damage - say, heroic horridon at the end) it can hurt even more. But in the end I saved the day, so I don't care. I'll go dps whoring later when things are on farm.

[Beecup]

Do hybrids even do less damage in comparison to pure classes? I remember seeing a Blizzard post stating that there was no longer any hybrid tax.

I play a ret/holy paladin although I rarely if ever use my off spec. I keep it maintained in the off chance I do need to play it, as we only have one other off spec healer outside of our core 3.

1. Yes, I carry off spec gear around with me.
2. Doesn't really apply for holy/ret but if I had to, I would optimize for primary spec and then gem around it for off spec.

If no one needs it for main spec, I'll take it for off spec. Sometimes at the start of an expansion, de mats are too valuable to allow for that but it's usually fine.

I'm also slowly building a port set in case something happens.

That's basically what I used to do but I was Holy/Ret.

I healed on 25m and whenever we didn't need as many healers as we had, I would swap to Ret and DPS. The other Ret paladin in my raid loved it because he loved having competition of his class and made him try harder to beat me.

[Ailylia]

AOE sunder/any buffs/mobility/double deterrence etc = raid utility
Raid utility is not limited to a healing/DR cooldown and there's more reasons to bring a class to a raid than that. Please actually look at the whole picture..

Seriously, just the fact that they can bring any buff needed to the raid makes them pretty valuable in 10 mans.