Old talent trees or new talent options

[MasterHamster]

Sorry, but as much as I liked gaining a talent point every 1-2 levels, pretending I had any real choices at max is a joke.

At least the new system allows me to adapt to encounters if I wish without visiting a goddamn trainer. Math is absolute, there will always be cookie cutters, but don't try to give me that bullshit of how those last 2-3 surplus talent points gave me diverse options. It didn't. Most of the time I ended up with one or zero talent points left after filling every mandatory talent.

Was it more interesting as you leveled? Yes.
Diverse at max? Just no.

[Synstir]

Where?

Name them.

Name what? The sites?

I go to noxxic and check what they recommend.
Same time, we get guides here on mmo-c.

Then you got other sites where you can get also... i am not a player who is visiting various websites to check what talents, glyphs or whatever to use... i do use noxxic btw.

players don't think about reforging also.... I mean you hear them saying don't dumb the game down... but they use add ons to their thinking for them.
How isn't that the same??????? By, for example, taking away reforging, blizz is not dumbing down the game, they are just making it so that you don't need to stop playing and go to a site or start an add on to do reforging again for you.

[Lyrax]

i like the old talent trees because you felt like you were rewarded during leveling, and kept you motivated. Every level you didn't get a talent you learnt a new spell, and every other level you got a talent. Only the odd time would you get nothing. Now you can go 5 - 7 levels getting nothing, and it is a lot more demotivating than before

[paralleluniverse]

Name what? The sites?

I go to noxxic and check what they recommend.
Same time, we get guides here on mmo-c.

Then you got other sites where you can get also... i am not a player who is visiting various websites to check what talents, glyphs or whatever to use... i do use noxxic btw.

players don't think about reforging also.... I mean you hear them saying don't dumb the game down... but they use add ons to their thinking for them.
How isn't that the same??????? By, for example, taking away reforging, blizz is not dumbing down the game, they are just making it so that you don't need to stop playing and go to a site or start an add on to do reforging again for you.

Yes, name the websites giving out the cookie-cutter specs. Never heard of Noxxic. But I had a look at the site. Here's the talent build they list for destro locks:
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/warloc...ild-and-glyphs

Here's the talent build used by Method's warlocks in their last H Garrosh kill:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ttardos/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Eack/simple

They're all different.

There are class guides here. Looking at the warlock guides, they do not suggest complete talent builds. Simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/540/Raid_T15H.html) which is the main source of information for min-maxing, also doesn't give complete cookie-cutter build.

For the first time in the history of WoW, players now have real viable choices in talents. For the first time in the history of WoW, cookie-cutter builds are dead. And all because of the current talent system. It is the best talent system ever.

[Clash the DK]

Yes, name the websites giving out the cookie-cutter specs. Never heard of Noxxic. But I had a look at the site. Here's the talent build they list for destro locks:
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/warloc...ild-and-glyphs

Here's the talent build used by Method's warlocks in their last H Garrosh kill:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ttardos/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Eack/simple

They're all different.

There are class guides here. Looking at the warlock guides, they do not suggest complete talent builds. Simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/540/Raid_T15H.html) which is the main source of information for min-maxing, also doesn't give complete cookie-cutter build.

For the first time in the history of WoW, players now have real viable choices in talents. For the first time in the history of WoW, cookie-cutter builds are dead. And all because of the current talent system. It is the best talent system ever.

Unless those Warlocks have separate responsibilities on that particular fight, then one of them has taken the wrong talents. It's that simple. There is always a best choice in every situation. I'm wondering specifically why the one would take a single target fear over a aoe stun. The same Warlock took Kil'jaeden's Cunning. Who takes that anymore with the changes to Fel Flame? Another perspective might be that the talent choices make so little difference that even the top guilds do not even bother to min/max. Nevertheless, it makes your argument look very silly.

[paralleluniverse]

Unless those Warlocks have separate responsibilities on that particular fight, then one of them has taken the wrong talents. It's that simple. There is always a best choice in every situation. I'm wondering specifically why the one would take a single target fear over a aoe stun. The same Warlock took Kil'jaeden's Cunning. Who takes that anymore with the changes to Fel Flame? Another perspective might be that the talent choices make so little difference that even the top guilds do not even bother to min/max. Nevertheless, it makes your argument look very silly.

Different talents lead to different play styles in various respects, such as healing, but does not lead to differences in terms of DPS output or the difference is so insignificantly small that it is immeasurable and doesn't matter. So yes, it is simple, but you've gotten it completely wrong. In short, the new talent system provides choices to differentiate players, but not in terms of DPS output. In fact, talents which led to different DPS output was the very reason why the old system had cookie cutter specs and was an utter failure.

Also, even if it were true that the current system also doesn't provide player choice (which is wrong, because it has killed cookie cutter specs), the old talent system was infinitely worse in providing choice. So that's still no reason to go back. If the current talent system didn't provide choice, the correct response would be more change and overhauls to increase choice, not to do the opposite by going back to the flawed and failed talent system that WoW used to have.

[Raeln]

you're saying the game locked you into one spec for each class as soon as you hit lvl 10?

Back during Vanilla and early TBC? yes, pretty much. Gold did not flow like rivers from daily quests, as they were not invented yet. It took a significant amount of time to earn 50g just to throw it away on respec'ing - especially when the cost of raiding (elixirs, potions, food buffs, repairs) was so high - specifically for some classes like prot warriors and healers (who had all +healing on their tier gear at the time, not +spellpower).

Even while wearing T2 gear, respecing to shadow and killing with no +spellpower (all my bonuses were +healing only) was like trying to farm with dungeon blues.

- - - Updated - - -

I guarantee most players who played "back then" and especially most players who "want the old way back" don't even know what half of the talents back then did.

"Your fire spells do 1% more damage" - 5 ranks. 5% percent maxed out on just fire spells after 5 levels - woo.

"Increases your STA by 1%" - 5 ranks.

Shadow talent that increased spirit after landing the killing blow on a target that gives experience. 5 ranks I believe. The worst part was trying to get the killing blow in dungeons to minimize downtime.

How about Seal of Command being a talent? Who remembers that?

My favorite most frustrating talent to pick during level (that I can remember right now anyway) was Shadow Weaving. 5 stack debuff that applied increased shadow damage. Had to take it around level the 30-40s in Shadow, except almost no mob ever lived long enough to get more than 2 stacks on it before it died. Yay.

[Zaqwert]

Lack of actual character building/customization is one of the numerous issues Diablo 3 had.

Your level X character was EXACTLY THE SAME as eveyr other level X character, you could also respec your abilities for free instantly.

There was no such thing as YOUR character. Everyone played the same damn character and could instantly free respec at the drop of a hat.

Blizzard really understimates the satisfcation people get from "building" a character, bit by bit, level by level.

The time and investment makes you feel more attached and immersed.

However time and investment and immersion is something they have systmatically purged from the game, because the game is now built around people who play and hour or two a week.

[Raeln]

Lack of actual character building/customization is one of the numerous issues Diablo 3 had.

Your level X character was EXACTLY THE SAME as eveyr other level X character, you could also respec your abilities for free instantly.

There was no such thing as YOUR character. Everyone played the same damn character and could instantly free respec at the drop of a hat.

Blizzard really understimates the satisfcation people get from "building" a character, bit by bit, level by level.

The time and investment makes you feel more attached and immersed.

However time and investment and immersion is something they have systmatically purged from the game, because the game is now built around people who play and hour or two a week.

Diablo 3's more glaring issue was that by the time you finished the game on normal, you had barely unlocked half of your talents period. Then you had to game the auction house to get gear good enough to play through the same exact content the 2nd and 3rd time just to get to max level.

You do realize that it is going to be virtually impossible for you to have an individually distinct character in an online game, right?

Someone else is always going to pick the same class. Pick the same talents. Even pick the same transmog/cosmetic outfit. Back in Vanilla, we had a joke about how we had 3 troll priests in our raid group that looked completely identical - wearing the same tier gear, same talent spec and even the same face, same hairstyle, same hair color. Note that this was before the Barber shop was added.

[Clrg]

Yes, name the websites giving out the cookie-cutter specs. Never heard of Noxxic. But I had a look at the site. Here's the talent build they list for destro locks:
http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/warloc...ild-and-glyphs

Here's the talent build used by Method's warlocks in their last H Garrosh kill:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ttardos/simple
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...er/Eack/simple

They're all different.

There are class guides here. Looking at the warlock guides, they do not suggest complete talent builds. Simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/540/Raid_T15H.html) which is the main source of information for min-maxing, also doesn't give complete cookie-cutter build.

For the first time in the history of WoW, players now have real viable choices in talents. For the first time in the history of WoW, cookie-cutter builds are dead. And all because of the current talent system. It is the best talent system ever.

You never played lich king or was closed minded if you though there wasnt talent choice in lich king. And you are still closed minded if you think cokie cutter builds are dead.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html click any class and you will see there are talent with 70%+ usage, even 90%.

its so sad when a lot of my stuff on my spell book are passive..

[Slatch]

You never played lich king or was closed minded if you though there wasnt talent choice in lich king. And you are still closed minded if you think cokie cutter builds are dead.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html click any class and you will see there are talent with 70%+ usage, even 90%.

its so sad when a lot of my stuff on my spell book are passive..

After poking around at several classes talent choices I was struck by one thing. That website shows massive diversity. Having a couple talents per class at high percentages while the majority are split between 2 or 3 is an amazing amount of choice compared to Vanilla through Cata builds where 90% of all talents for almost every class were mandatory. A solid 2/3 of talents now can be changed out depending on play style or other reasons, compared to 10%.

You really shouldn't post information that contradicts your point, it's a bad way to argue.

[Clrg]

After poking around at several classes talent choices I was struck by one thing. That website shows massive diversity. Having a couple talents per class at high percentages while the majority are split between 2 or 3 is an amazing amount of choice compared to Vanilla through Cata builds where 90% of all talents for almost every class were mandatory. A solid 2/3 of talents now can be changed out depending on play style or other reasons, compared to 10%.

You really shouldn't post information that contradicts your point, it's a bad way to argue.

I think druid, priest, paladin and some monk talents doesn't have that huge gap between talent choice. So no, the actual "talent" system isn't perfect, and the old talent system wasn't perfect too.

[Perkunas]

You're on the most active fan site filled to the brim with current subscribers. Did you honestly think you were going to get a majority of people saying they dislike any of Blizzard's decisions?

The talent system is not my cup of tea, but I think that the class homogenization that came with Wrath and was expanded upon in Cata is far worse than the talent system.

[Littleraven]

the current one is much better than the older one. but it is far from perfect. there are a ton of glaring problems with it that could use work but trying to go back to the older one i really think would make people realize how much it sucked.

there were more things to put points into sure but the majority of them didnt really do anything. i like that each talent now is essentially a new ability instead of +1% to x or y.

i dont know what they could do to make it better but i like the current system better.

[Fkiolaris]

You never played lich king or was closed minded if you though there wasnt talent choice in lich king. And you are still closed minded if you think cokie cutter builds are dead.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html click any class and you will see there are talent with 70%+ usage, even 90%.

its so sad when a lot of my stuff on my spell book are passive..

Anyone knows how reliable this site is? I am planning to get the data from it and do a bit of analysis during the weekend, I don't want to waste my time if it's completely unreliable. Thanks in advance for any answers.