Paragons of the Klaxxi Heroic 25

[CausalXXLinkXx]

I would assume you could kill siege on normal, but dang that sucks if you have to kill all 12 on heroic before doing paragons heroic.

[srm02]

So another couple of guilds killed it, one even gained 20 ranks up from siegecrafter (high tempest) and they employed HoP tactic this week, last week with their normal tactic they could not even barely kill xar'il or hisek with the raid alive. You then also have ninjapartio that used hop albeit last week as well looking at their logs, I think it is pretty clear to me that it a lot indeed easier to people saying that it makes no difference. Hell one of them only killed paragons after 4 days of progression, so you have th evidence in front of you unless you magically think guilds are just injecting their players with some super progression steroids after blackfuse.

(Again I don't mind if blizzard leaves it but at least it can't be argued it is the same in difficulty)

[Mirri]

So another couple of guilds killed it, one even gained 20 ranks up from siegecrafter (high tempest) and they employed HoP tactic this week, last week with their normal tactic they could not even barely kill xar'il or hisek with the raid alive. You then also have ninjapartio that used hop albeit last week as well looking at their logs, I think it is pretty clear to me that it a lot indeed easier to people saying that it makes no difference. Hell one of them only killed paragons after 4 days of progression, so you have th evidence in front of you unless you magically think guilds are just injecting their players with some super progression steroids after blackfuse.

(Again I don't mind if blizzard leaves it but at least it can't be argued it is the same in difficulty)

Newsflash: improved and evolved strats have a tendency to make the boss fight easier. I know it must come as a true shock to you but that is usually the case.

And my oh my how much you have changed your original tune in your first post.

[srm02]

Newsflash: improved and evolved strats have a tendency to make the boss fight easier. I know it must come as a true shock to you but that is usually the case.

And my oh my how much you have changed your original tune in your first post.

You are being ignorant, I stated specifically to those arguing it is the same in difficulty. Of course I know that some strats make it easier.

[Mirri]

You are being ignorant, I stated specifically to those arguing it is the same in difficulty. Of course I know that some strats make it easier.

You are the one being ignorant, strategy doesn't make up the entire reason why the fight is being progressed in less time than before. You are blindly ignoring multiple resets of gear and higher ilvl as a factor why guilds are taking less time.

The Strat is better and more reliable yes, but it's not the entire reason why guilds are progressing faster using it.

[Amiyis]

Good luck being one of the first guilds to have to do 15/15H T16

Do you get bonus points for having to learn to rekill a boss with actual mechanics in play?

We got that covered already.

[Basmothh]

You are the one being ignorant, strategy doesn't make up the entire reason why the fight is being progressed in less time than before. You are blindly ignoring multiple resets of gear and higher ilvl as a factor why guilds are taking less time.

The Strat is better and more reliable yes, but it's not the entire reason why guilds are progressing faster using it.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think this strat allows for faster progression on Paragons. There's a reason why guilds who used it jumped multiple ranks.

[Mirri]

You're kidding yourself if you don't think this strat allows for faster progression on Paragons. There's a reason why guilds who used it jumped multiple ranks.

Never disputed this fact that this Strat allows faster progression. glad to see you are in agreement with the superiority of the new Strat

[Leonora]

How is this still going back and forth? None of you guys are developers and know what the intention was with the ability, stop stating your opinions (yes, opinions) as facts. It's definitely leaning more towards what Mione says because - hey, it's common sense. That doesn't mean what Skroesec says is far off base though, there have been stranger things in WoW history.

Dont you feel that your remark on mindreading the developers completely contradicts your remark on Mione?

[Angelicat]

Dont you feel that your remark on mindreading the developers completely contradicts your remark on Mione?

Well, if it's not obvious enough, no, I don't know what the devs are thinking either (and I never have for years of playing this game, so many things still baffle me). You are reading too much into the line - that is just my opinion as well.

[FiveDkp]

The funny thing that this topic has now gone into arguing for Semantics.

[Leonora]

Nope, this is not about semantics.

I once read an article from one of the leaders of a then-leading WF raidteam, no idea who it was, who pointed out that Blizzard makes it very hard (in fact unfair, though not sure he actually said as much) to deal properly with WF races. A series of new fights, with a lot of bugs, and a team that likes to get each event done with quickly. On the one hand a team tries to think up smart ways to deal with mechanisms, as it is supposed to be in WoW. On the other hand, if Blizzard decides that something is inappropriate, they can use the banhammer and you are out. The punishment dealt by Blizzard is so huge that it is smart (from the side of said top teams) to be conservative in judging tactics. But being conservative does not necessary mean that the best tactic is chosen.

I see Mione as a representative of the conservative side; clearly Mione has created a picture of what the Blizzard developers must have meant, their team has won the event and that deserves respect.

But just because their team made it and made a judgement call within the acceptance parameters of Blizzard does not mean their approach is the optimal one. Skroesec may very well have found other, different ways of staying within Blizzards parameters. Time will tell. The end judge is not people here throwing around terms like 'cheesing', but Blizzard accepting a kill or not - with the 'not' often shown by the banhammer.

However, just because Blizzard has all the might to use the banhammer does not make them right. I personally feel that their punishment is not fitting the 'crime'. If Blizzard feels a team did not use proper fight techniques, let them reset the fight and take away the loot. Considering the whole setting of bugs and a strong incentive to win from other teams, a banhammer should not be used - these teams are just using the possibilities provided by wow, and harsh punishment for smart thinking does not fit.

Just my 2 cts .

[Tiberria]

Nope, this is not about semantics.

I once read an article from one of the leaders of a then-leading WF raidteam, no idea who it was, who pointed out that Blizzard makes it very hard (in fact unfair, though not sure he actually said as much) to deal properly with WF races. A series of new fights, with a lot of bugs, and a team that likes to get each event done with quickly. On the one hand a team tries to think up smart ways to deal with mechanisms, as it is supposed to be in WoW. On the other hand, if Blizzard decides that something is inappropriate, they can use the banhammer and you are out. The punishment dealt by Blizzard is so huge that it is smart (from the side of said top teams) to be conservative in judging tactics. But being conservative does not necessary mean that the best tactic is chosen.

I see Mione as a representative of the conservative side; clearly Mione has created a picture of what the Blizzard developers must have meant, their team has won the event and that deserves respect.

But just because their team made it and made a judgement call within the acceptance parameters of Blizzard does not mean their approach is the optimal one. Skroesec may very well have found other, different ways of staying within Blizzards parameters. Time will tell. The end judge is not people here throwing around terms like 'cheesing', but Blizzard accepting a kill or not - with the 'not' often shown by the banhammer.

However, just because Blizzard has all the might to use the banhammer does not make them right. I personally feel that their punishment is not fitting the 'crime'. If Blizzard feels a team did not use proper fight techniques, let them reset the fight and take away the loot. Considering the whole setting of bugs and a strong incentive to win from other teams, a banhammer should not be used - these teams are just using the possibilities provided by wow, and harsh punishment for smart thinking does not fit.

Just my 2 cts .

By that argument, the mass banhammer that went out in as a result of the PTR loot exploits also wasn't fitting the crime, because most of the guilds that took part in the LFR thing did so because they saw other competing guilds do it, felt Blizzard would not respond to it and didn't want to risk falling behind the curve going into the first week of heroic progression as a result.

I also think that anyone that argues this is similar to kiting adds, or using freedom/Windwalk on debuffs that slow/root you is being extremely disingenuous. BoP is intended to prevent physical damage; it is not intended to prevent entire boss mechanics that have nothing to do with the physical damage in the first place from taking place. If you are going to argue that this strategy is legitimate and acceptable, then you also have to argue that using Saronite Bombs to rebuild the Lich King platform or using DI in the Yogg brain room is also legitimate. Unfortunately for you, Blizzard has already shown precedent in those cases that it is NOT legitimate. I don't see how this is really any different.

Also, Blizzard doesn't just intervene on stuff like this when it affects the World first race. The Gara'jal door strat/TM-Gamble-Overture fiasco in T14 involved guilds at about the same level as these Paragons kills. That didn't stop Blizzard from putting their foot down hard. This is almost exactly the same thing as the Gara'jal situation; the complete removal of fight mechanics through unintended means. Yes, Paragons with this exploit isn't as easy as Gara'jal with multiple mechanics taken out, but that's because Paragons is naturally a much harder fight. I hope that Blizzard comes down hard on the guilds that used this strat to effectively cheat their way to higher rankings. Even if they don't remove the kill and put in a 3 day ban (which is entirely appropriate), they should make BoP no longer work. Forcing guilds that by their own admission already had to extend 2 lockouts just to kill Paragons in such an exploitative way to relearn the entire fight would in itself be severe punishment.

[Deleted]

By that argument, the mass banhammer that went out in as a result of the PTR loot exploits also wasn't fitting the crime, because most of the guilds that took part in the LFR thing did so because they saw other competing guilds do it, felt Blizzard would not respond to it and didn't want to risk falling behind the curve going into the first week of heroic progression as a result.

I also think that anyone that argues this is similar to kiting adds, or using freedom/Windwalk on debuffs that slow/root you is being extremely disingenuous. BoP is intended to prevent physical damage; it is not intended to prevent entire boss mechanics that have nothing to do with the physical damage in the first place from taking place. If you are going to argue that this strategy is legitimate and acceptable, then you also have to argue that using Saronite Bombs to rebuild the Lich King platform or using DI in the Yogg brain room is also legitimate. Unfortunately for you, Blizzard has already shown precedent in those cases that it is NOT legitimate. I don't see how this is really any different.

Also, Blizzard doesn't just intervene on stuff like this when it affects the World first race. The Gara'jal door strat/TM-Gamble-Overture fiasco in T14 involved guilds at about the same level as these Paragons kills. That didn't stop Blizzard from putting their foot down hard. This is almost exactly the same thing as the Gara'jal situation; the complete removal of fight mechanics through unintended means. Yes, Paragons with this exploit isn't as easy as Gara'jal with multiple mechanics taken out, but that's because Paragons is naturally a much harder fight. I hope that Blizzard comes down hard on the guilds that used this strat to effectively cheat their way to higher rankings. Even if they don't remove the kill and put in a 3 day ban (which is entirely appropriate), they should make BoP no longer work. Forcing guilds that by their own admission already had to extend 2 lockouts just to kill Paragons in such an exploitative way to relearn the entire fight would in itself be severe punishment.

"", umad bro?

[Intrepid1]

Considering the hate spewing crap coming out of Incarnate officers/members I would say that's safe to assume.

[Deleted]

So if people used Korvens ability to turn into Amber, and prevent bloods from spawning, is that considered as an abuse of mechanics? I bet it's the way it's supposed to work..

[Basmothh]

"", umad bro?

y so defensive bro?

Just pointing out that this discussion is pointless. People that took advantage of the loophole are obviously going to try and justify it. Those that didn't are obviously going to have the opposite reaction.

I'm genuinely curious though - to those who used BoP on Paragons, what are your thoughts on other similar cases like Saronite Bombs on LK or outranging Iyyokuk? Should Blizzard have hotfixed those loopholes in those instances? If yes, do you think they should do they same for BoP on this fight?

[Intrepid1]

y so defensive bro?

Just pointing out that this discussion is pointless. People that took advantage of the loophole are obviously going to try and justify it. Those that didn't are obviously going to have the opposite reaction.

I'm genuinely curious though - to those who used BoP on Paragons, what are your thoughts on other similar cases like Saronite Bombs on LK or outranging Iyyokuk? Should Blizzard have hotfixed those loopholes in those instances? If yes, do you think they should do they same for BoP on this fight?

Good bait to try and continue a pointless discussion. You won't catch anything today.

[Basmothh]

Good bait to try and continue a pointless discussion. You won't catch anything today.

Keep dodging.

[Skroe]

y so defensive bro?

Just pointing out that this discussion is pointless. People that took advantage of the loophole are obviously going to try and justify it. Those that didn't are obviously going to have the opposite reaction.

I'm genuinely curious though - to those who used BoP on Paragons, what are your thoughts on other similar cases like Saronite Bombs on LK or outranging Iyyokuk? Should Blizzard have hotfixed those loopholes in those instances? If yes, do you think they should do they same for BoP on this fight?

We're not defensive. We've just spent the better part of a day laughing at Incarnate. It's really hilarious to us, honestly. We don't even know these people. I've never been to their website. I couldn't name one of their players. I don't even know their raid hours. I know absolutely nothing about their guild. And they keep coming out of the wood work talking to us like we ran over their dog in the mall parking lot and billed them for the body work to our car. It's fuckin' hilarious. Spaz much guiz?

On your point though, in no reality is BoPing a limited number of Bloodlettings as a bridge to Korven's buff anywhere in the same galaxy as either of those cases. It's not even close, particularly the Saronite Bomb case.

Like that's absolutely laughable and it defines down "exploit" or "cheese" to such a way that makes everything except one way of doing things cheese. It's an extraordinarily shitty argument.

We're talking about HoPs... and you're putting that on the level of causing the floor on heroic LK not to despawn? Like are you for real? As I already explained, the most similar thing in recent history to the HoP is the grips on Heroic LK, which everyone did. The entire argument is absurd at this point. It's not like we're using some level 60 potion or some trinket from Karazhan or some world buff from Wrath. We're using a class ability on every Paladin's bar.

And hell, let me just remind you, it was six months ago you were doing Heroic Horridon... i believe your Horridon tank probably got HoP'd right? To clear the buff? Oh you bet you did. When it works for you, it's strat. When it doesn't, it's "cheese" or "exploit".

Honestly, what a goddamn joke the argument against it is. It was sour graps 10 pages ago, it's sour grapes now. Our position hasn't moved an inch, and it's not justification at this point - to be frank, we're not accountable to anyone and I didn't give a crap what you thought 10 page ago and don't right now either. The only reason for participating is because I wasn't going to let this thread be a one sided shooting gallery against something few had done, using this method. The counter argument deserved to be made. We've made our case rather comprehensively. People who don't accept it... well... that's their prerogative. It's a free country. They can have their wrong opinions. Fuck 'em.

- - - Updated - - -

So if people used Korvens ability to turn into Amber, and prevent bloods from spawning, is that considered as an abuse of mechanics? I bet it's the way it's supposed to work..

Everyone who is against this strat neatly forgets this very salient point. You wanna make this fight less hellish? Figure out how to keep Skeer up after Koven and kill Hisek and Rikkal first. They could change HoP tomorrow, and that would still be the problem to solve because of the Korven buff. I don't want to be specific, but the funny part about this, is we're not even talking a lot of HoPs. Single digits. Because Korven is the key.

That's why this thread his so funny to me. All the rage about HoP that it's Korven that handles Skeer 80% of his life, you just have to get there. And there are more than a few avenues to do that.

That is why this is so dumb. It's beyond much ado about nothing. You will probably end up using fewer HoPs on this fight if you do it smartly, than you used on Horridon. It's a joke.