November 4 - Even More LFR Nerfs

[Firebert]

If it is not ment to teach but rather to experience why not take purples out of lfr give them blues with no set bonus?

Even though it could be argued that that's what LFR already gives out, LFR's also there to progress your character, it's the whole reason anyone plays. Gear has to be a carrot to keep people queueing up for LFR, as LFR's currently propping up raid exposure (and has been since Dragon Soul, and hence validating Blizzard's decision to spend the majority of their forces on raid content and not dungeon content).

- - - Updated - - -

Only way that will change is if more tanks queue up. And that won't happen as long as people give them abuse.

I've touched on this in another thread, but I'm sure Blizzard can do something to incentivise tanks to re-queue.

[khalltusk]

Yet the game kept growing when it was harder, you know why? Because all the attunements, gear checks, resistances, etc made everyone work harder so they could get to enter the wondrous world of raiding and experience the content everyone was talking about. Now they just afk everywhere and get to see everything without even bothering to check how their class works.

I've said this alot of times: harder content and requirements makes everyone have a goal to reach, and makes everyone spend more time in the game just to reach that goal.

False entirely fucking false. The reason the game grew was because it was new. The majority of the player base NEVER raided infact blizzard went on record to say the vast majority were in fact leveling for most of TBC and Vanilla. Go on google and look it up.

Blizzard also stated when people hit a wall instead of improving they simply quit. Now for the MINORITY of people that raided (my self included) we went past these barriers as we liked the rewards that raiding brought.

Bad players have always existed, I remember having to screen god knows how many bad players out of my raiding guilds back in TBC and Vanilla (vanilla more so as we had more raid spots to fill).

[Deleted]

The Only reason for me queueing Lfr is that I need zum Items to complete the legendary Questline!

[Firebert]

They are right, there is absolutely nothing in LFR that is hard or challenging.

Clearly not, otherwise they wouldn't have nerfed it.

The reason it got nerfed is because people are too lazy to care about actually doing mechanics.

Or the mechanics are too unforgiving given the average skill of the raid, hence why they're nerfing the mechanics.

LFR is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by being idiots and by being lazy.

Heroic is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by being too good at the game in the first place.
Normal is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Heroic raiders.
Flex is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Normal raiders.
LFR is made hard by the players themselves. They make it hard mode by not being as skilled as the Flex raiders.

The line of which raiders are "idiots and lazy" can be drawn anywhere.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet the game kept growing when it was newer, you know why?

Also, as soon as the game got hard in Cataclysm 2m people left, with LFR required to try to stem the low raid exposure and sub bleed. A hard game doesn't keep players.

I've said this alot of times: harder content and requirements makes everyone have a goal to reach, and makes everyone spend more time in the game just to reach that goal.

Recent history doesn't back you here.

[Barnabas]

well at least you don't have to look forward to a several hundred gold repair bill anymore because half the raid thinks 10 stacks of determination is necessary to kill a boss.

[Rotted]

Tell that to the stressed out average and good players trying to gear up alts that sit for hours hitting 4 - 10 stacks on bosses because people can't seem to adapt to the mechanics.

Its exactly this,

And I love the fact you pull figures out of the blue "Because a few" people, thats just bull shit, if it was a handful of people there would of been 0 nerfs

Anyways back to my original comment

No-one cares about your whining go away

- - - Updated - - -

I don't get these 'nerfs', really don't get them at all.
LFR doesn't have a problem with people taking damage, they have a problem with following a simple tactic.
And there is no way you can 'nerf' that without destroying the entire fight.

This week we were doing Garrosh and the tactic was simple: EVERYONE stack on the tank.
Do you want to know how many people were still running around everywhere except where they are supposed to be? Five!
They can fix this by allowing us to kick more often.

Out of interest, did you actually tell those people what the mistake was or did you just blast and rip them to shreds for it,

No need to answer that I already know what you did

[khalltusk]

Let me tell you what happened three days ago:
"We are stacking on the green marker."
-"I think that is a bad idea."
"This tactic works and we don't want to make it too complicated, so this is what we do."
-"Okay"
"Do you understand it, stack on the marker?"
-"Yes!"

So we start the fight and that guy doesn't stand on the marker.
Three guesses to what guy got a 'defile' and got mind-controlled and almost wiped us by that.

If positioning your character on a big green beam is impossible, then Blizzard should delete your account and I really wonder how someone dinged 90 in the first place.

We told them.
After 3 wipes we were still explaining them nicely that they should stand on top of the tank/marker.
After 7 wipes we were still trying to explain it and they were still saying "Yes, I get it." and then refusing to do it.
I am sure you do.

Yeh I had a few stragglers on the cheese tactic, I put a marker on my self and the OT and we told the raid to follow them/the boss (in p2 we moved out of desecrates and stacked up on the boss still as me and the OT moved the boss out of the aoe). Had a couple of people move too far away. I made a raid warning macro for "stack up on the boss/star/circle now!" and another for "DPS adds/mind controlled people now!".

Spammed those macros when needed during the fight and I noticed the ones who were further out than they should be suddenly stacking up and doing what was required. Sure some people will fail at this but such is life.

[Deleted]

After 3 wipes we were still explaining them nicely that they should stand on top of the tank/marker.
After 7 wipes we were still trying to explain it and they were still saying "Yes, I get it." and then refusing to do it.

You tried the same thing 7 times when it was failing?

your tactic was deficient for the players you had, then.

[Nerraw]

I've touched on this in another thread, but I'm sure Blizzard can do something to incentivise tanks to re-queue.

Sure they could. But for many the damage might already be done, just as it was with the heroic dungeons at the beginning of Cataclysm. Lots of people had already stopped playing, and they didn't come back.

[Granyala]

Could be that raid encounters and character play styles are just to god damn complex.

Well what do you expect when they want to force every Faceroller™ into the raid content by making 5mans obsolete.
No wonder that they have to go down to the lowest common denominator.

You tried the same thing 7 times when it was failing?

your tactic was deficient for the players you had, then.

Tactics don't help against people that are unwilling to do teamwork.
These people DO NOT BELONG IN A RAIDING ENVIRONMENT.

But alas, they have nowhere else to go.

[Deleted]

Tactics don't help against people that are unwilling to do teamwork.
These people DO NOT BELONG IN A RAIDING ENVIRONMENT.

But alas, they have nowhere else to go.

Tactics which don't take into account the people who must do them aren't tactics, they are wasted wishes.

Theres a really easy way to make wow super challenging, very few people are willing to take it on. Here it is - take absolutely anyone and try and make it work.

[Vespian]

This thread is filled with people that don't get it. And they're on both sides of the fence. It's neither the difficulty nor the retardness of the players that caused this nerf.

It's the ever growing belief that one should not wipe. EVER. Yesterday I was in a LFR and players went like; *strikes hair back and makes handgesture* "I have NEVER wiped on this boss before" /leavesraid. NO SHIT LFR SUCKS. The retards are perfectly being compensated by the stuck up bitches with the perfect record, who never wiped before, and therefore everyone in the raid must be retarded.

Oh sure there are retards, but no one wants to grit their teeth and just overcome them. Instead, WIPING IS BAD OH NOES /QQ

We used to wipe 5 nights a week in Vanilla. Pussies.

[Deleted]

This thread is filled with people that don't get it. And they're on both sides of the fence. It's neither the difficulty nor the retardness of the players that caused this nerf.

It's the ever growing belief that one should not wipe. EVER. Yesterday I was in a LFR and players went like; *strikes hair back and makes handgesture* "I have NEVER wiped on this boss before" /leavesraid. NO SHIT LFR SUCKS. The retards are perfectly being compensated by the stuck up bitches with the perfect record, who never wiped before, and therefore everyone in the raid must be retard.

Oh sure there are retards, but no one wants to grit their teeth and just overcome them. Instead, WIPING IS BAD OH NOES /QQ

We used to wipe 5 nights a week in Vanilla. Pussies.

People don't want to wipe, they want to kill stuff.

There is nothing wrong with this mentality at all. It must be recognised that the amount of people who are willing to fail over and over again in order to eventually succeed is not now and never will be very large. You can feel how you like about that fact, but it's still there.

If blizzard wants the sub money (they are legally bound to get it btw) they have to also accept this fact. You can feel how you like about this as well, but it's not changing either.

[Otimus]

Even if you no longer play or don't do LFR, it's just funny to see when they make announcements like this:

Honestly, just mail people the potential bags/loot they would've won instead of making them do the raid at this point. Siege of Orgrimmar was brilliant, the mechanics were brilliant and it was a great raid. Just because a few bad players who haven't adapted to you know basic concepts such as moving out of AoE started complaining, they felt that these constant barrages of nerfs are necessary...

LFR isn't difficult and tanks aren't leaving because they're treated like crap in LFR, they're treated like crap after every wipe. They're leaving because would you rather deal with a bunch of AFK DPS and people who for the most part speak no English for a 528 ilvl or would you rather form a group with competent people and be rewarded with ilvl 540 in Flex? The majority of casuals have moved to Flex Finder mode, leaving only the AFKers, the incredibly bad (mostly ungemmed/unenchanted/not reforged) and the Portuguese playerbase to run LFR.

Nerf it all you want, it's not going to teach players the core fundamentals of raiding or having to actually... God forbid, learn strategy to earn potential loot. I thought that an MMO revolved around hard work, grinding and team work.. apparently Blizzard is trying to re-invent what a MMO means. Oh well, I just enjoy seeing news like this as I occasionally check on MMO-C and Blizzard to see what the latest news is... I'm just waiting for more expansion information to determine whether I'll start a new account or not.

There is no, and never will be any unified communication in LFR, and other players have to deal with a spread of skill levels.

You're honestly expecting things that aren't realistic. Things aren't nerfed "because people whined". They're nerfed because people just give up and stop doing it. Stopping doing things, means they're going to likely quit sooner rather than later, once they get knocked off the gear treadmill. Things aren't so black and white.

(That being said, almost all of the people I've seen call for nerfs vocally have been better than average players who just want their runs to be over faster.)

[Deleted]

I
We wiped despite the tactic.
We had a tactic that was designed to deal with the things that people were doing wrong.
We wiped because people didn't decently attack adds, the axe or the MC'd ones.
With the actual tactic, that is ment for normal, it would have been an even worse disaster.

No, you wiped because you didn't have a working tactic.

A tactic people won't follow isn't a tactic, it's a wish list.

[Firebert]

It's the ever growing belief that one should not wipe.

They shouldn't in LFR, simply because wiping's a time penalty on people that are already temporally constrained.

[Deleted]

But wiping is a part of the game!

A part of the game most players won't give house room.

You wipe, you change your tactic to make it easier for your set-up and you go again.

Nope. Most players wipe, log out and play batman instead.

What people don't like is wiping because "do not dps" or "stand on triangle" or "attack skull!" apparently stretched the boundaries of stuff you can expect from players.

lol doubtful

Then what do you suggest?
Should we make a tactic where we tell people to teleport out and stand AFK in Orggimmar?
Do you think that might not stretch their capabilities? Or is that still too challenging for them?

How hard is it to "stand on the tank"?

How hard is it to notice that "stand on the tank" doesn't work after 7 wipes?

lol

[Vespian]

People don't want to wipe, they want to kill stuff.

There is nothing wrong with this mentality at all. It must be recognised that the amount of people who are willing to fail over and over again in order to eventually succeed is not now and never will be very large. You can feel how you like about that fact, but it's still there.

If blizzard wants the sub money (they are legally bound to get it btw) they have to also accept this fact. You can feel how you like about this as well, but it's not changing either.

And this is why dungeons get nerfed, which is why more and more people play like retards, which is why more dungeons get nerfed, which is why even more people will play like retards. The cycle does not end.

Wiping isn't fun, wiping makes you a better player and makes it more rewarding to participate in raiding.

They shouldn't in LFR, simply because wiping's a time penalty on people that are already temporally constrained.

Wiping should take place EVERYWHERE.

[Otimus]

Yet the game kept growing when it was harder, you know why? Because all the attunements, gear checks, resistances, etc made everyone work harder so they could get to enter the wondrous world of raiding and experience the content everyone was talking about. Now they just afk everywhere and get to see everything without even bothering to check how their class works.

I've said this alot of times: harder content and requirements makes everyone have a goal to reach, and makes everyone spend more time in the game just to reach that goal.

Except very few people engaged in that part of the game, so, clearly, raiding one way or the other has very little to do with anything in regards to the subs, and people need to stop assuming so. You'd have a leg to stand on if a lot of people ever did that content: They didn't. They didn't even attempt to get ready to get ready to do it :x


Also: Churn. WoW had absurd churn from late vanilla until near the end of WOTLK. The churn stopped, and now Blizzard has to actually try and keep their slack jawed ultra-casual player base content somehow or another. Elsewise, they're going to lose half or more of their members to the next Call of Duty or whatever. It's the audience they have. They have to deal with it.

[Granyala]

People don't want to wipe, they want to kill stuff.

There is nothing wrong with this mentality at all.

It's ok, since it is LFR. People don't go in there to be challenged.

Then what do you suggest?

Nerfing content, so that even people who are simply unwilling to follow any kind of strategy can kill the boss.
Which is what Blizzard is attempting to do.

It's disgusting, I know. But if the sheep flock to it, there is little anyone can do, since Blizzard wants those sheep to keep paying.
I'm extremely happy I have the luxury of a functioning 25man Guild, so I don't have to put up with the abomination that is LFR.