Mythical level - 20man

[Hoofey]

lol the president of warcraft tweeted it u think hes gonna lie about them setting up 10man easier than 25s atm?

Stop posting please.

People who run both 25 and 10man say that some bosses are easier on 25, some are easier on 10. In the long run it evens out.
So please, stop assuming things and dont babble about stuff you obviously dont know much about.

[Deleted]

At least in the west, the number of guilds that have at least cleared heroic nourshen on 10m make up about .7% of the total player base. If all if them stopped playing blizzard would be just fine. I suggest heroic 10ms start recruiting and merging. I doubt it will change. That data was taken from wowprogress. For many heroic 10m raiders, if they can't raid "mythic" they won't bother playing. The new heroic (normal) isn't worth the time. That said, maybe 10-20% might stop playing not all of them.

Raiders, have and always will be the minority, but it's the knock on effect it has from raiders quitting that matters. Established guilds falling apart causes realms to die. Or do you think it was just an unhappy coincidence that 25 man guilds started dropping like flies in Cata and realms started dying at alarming rates?

[Zethious]

This is the best change in WoW since like dungeon finder... great fix to a problem they never should have caused... RiP lame 10 man heroic guilds nobody cared to even know who was top 3 of... LOVE the change

[Deleted]

This is the best change in WoW since like dungeon finder... great fix to a problem they never should have caused... RiP lame 10 man heroic guilds nobody cared to even know who was top 3 of... LOVE the change

I don't like boosting scrubs

[Yem]

Amazing change.

[Dracodraco]

They were so easy paragon had to 1 heal and 600+ pulls on Garrosh. You are so blind to reality it's insulting

One: You're quoting 600+ pulls, but as far as I am aware, the vast majority of those were done with 2 healers. 600 Pulls was their TOTAL - not the amount with one healer.
Two: The fact that the encounter can be done with one healer goes a long way to show how easy/boring the fight actually is to heal. It's not some kind of superhuman accomplishment when the fight itself requires less HPS than effing General Nazgrim. It also shows us how lacking Paragons DPS were that they found it more consistent to 1 heal than 2 heal (1 healing does give way for RNG-deaths due to being locked out of globals).


That aside, some numbers that were pulled up earlier in regards to 10 man vs 25 man raiders -
The numbers Stallion arrived at was about 2/3 of the playerbase being 10 man, and 1/3 being 25 man, correct?
Consider -
The chances of the people playing in a 25 man guild would prefer to play in a 10 man is extremely small. If they DID prefer to be in a 10 man guild, there's tons and tons and TONS of options around. Going from 25->10 is easy, just like it's easy for a guild to downsize.
The chances of the people playing in a 10 man guild would prefer to play in a 10 man is "much" smaller than it is for 25 mans wanting to be 25. If you're in a 10 man guild, you oftenly do not have an option to switch to 25 man, even if you would prefer to do so. It could be moral obligations to your friends that you downsized to 10 man from 25 with, it could be that because there's only a fifth of the guilds aviable on the 25 scene than the 10 scene none of them meets your desired progress or raiding schedule, or the spots just aren't open - heck, even hardware could be an issue.

Whatever the reason, those people will be welcoming 20 man raids. And I'd dare to say that the people who are "stuck" in a 10 man guild, wanting to do 25, should be able to push the numbers from 33/66 to 50/50 - or atleast to a point where you'll realise that the other side has such a small amount of "extra" players, that you will end up enraging almost half the community either way.

[eschatological]

Says who? Just because you said it, that makes it true? Before Mythic 20m was announced, if you asked any 10 or 25 player what they thought of 10v25 balance, you really think that's the honest answer that most of them would give you? Maybe they'll sing a different tune now for the sake of argument, but before this weekend I doubt very many people would say 10v25 was balanced this expansion.

Extra action buttons is not a workaround for design limitations due to balancing 10v25. It's not possible for Blizzard to make encounters that take advantage of class niches due to 10 man raids. The reason they chose 20m is because while they wanted to compromise with 10m guilds, larger raid formats are flat out better for encounter designers because it allows them more creative freedom with encounter mechanics that would have just not be fair to players if those liberties were taken in a smaller 10 or 15 man format. If you think extra action buttons or "MC crystals" are good enough band aid fixes to comp limitations in 10 man, then THAT is laziness.

What fights have been abnormallu balanced this expansion? I can think of one major one, H-Twin Consorts. It was faceroll on 10, and balls tough on 25 til it was nerfd. The rest of the encounters, some were harder on 10 (Council comes to mind), some were harder on 25, but the "easier" format in both cases was never so easy compared to the other that it was "unbalanced."

Moreover, the whole (rational) raiding community views the races as two separate things, so as long as they're reasonably balanced enough so they can both be called "heroic," what's the issue?

[Nobleshield]

Weren't you crying on the paladin forums a while back about how your co-tank was mean and arrogant and how you wanted to take a select few out of your 10 man group and start afresh? Either that or quit or something?
Now imagine how hard it will be to find 19 others whose company you enjoy. That or find a thicker skin somewhere.
You seem to have inexplicably changed your tune from ranting about how hard it is to find 10 good people to suddenly thinking you will fill 20 spots easily.

I'm curious as to why?

Because now we have about 14-15 people and have to sit/rotate people on different fights; the change means we can recruit for 20 (actually about 21-22) and continue to bring everyone we get without the prospect of recruiting for something that might never actually materialize; even if we can't get 20 for Mythic, we generally don't do much into Heroic content so we can just bring the let's say 18 people we have every week and not exclude anyone.

[Sacrelis]

10 mans do recruit. The recruiting pool is growing smaller has time passes with the game though. You are completely ignoring this and working on the assumption that the pool has someone stayed the same or just increased over time with an ageing game.

Maybe Blizzard should've thought about social engineering the dead realms when they first started dying or when people warned about the dangers of 10-25 being chained together. Social engineering that alienates the core of your raiders is quite a stupid thing to do.

I agreed 10 man do recruit, I am from a 10 man guild myself and we had to do recruiting from time to time to replace burnt out raiders or players who can no longer raid due to RL stuff. It's a PITA thing to do. The thing is with decreasing recruiting pools, Blizzard wants players to not only look ingame for recruitment, they want players to actively look outside of game.

You have a friend that doesn't want to play catch up for 20 levels, no problem. Free 90 alongside with bigger raid team to guarantee raidspot. Your friend don't feel ready for Mythic? No problem, normal and heroic now have flex to ease your friend into 20 man while the guild continues the search. It's not just ingame, it's not "oh yeah, we have 10 and 2 backup casual raiders, we good". It's "we are 8 short and still need 3-4 more casuals, who can we get?". No amount of advertising and marketing can replace this, this is partly why TBC and WOTLK have only shown growth, players looking for players, word of mouth.

Another problem with 10 man guilds are leaders. You can't deny leaders are sought for and needed, I am not talking about lesser guild leaders but those capable of leading current heroics (and not complete jerks). These players with leadership skills brings players together, however their numbers are fractured into many small pools of 10man guilds while they are clearly talented enough to lead a 20 man. Dedicated guild leaders and raid leaders, and not to mentioned previous social structures like class leads or role leads.

Now next is my experience and may only apply to myself. In a 10 man guild, sometimes when I log on, there's...nobody. That's right, nobody, there's no guild chat, no feeling of this bustling guild. If you are in a 10 man serious raiding guild, there will be players who only log on to raid, and I average sees 2-3 people on all the time offpeak, hardly enough to run anything. Back in those days in TBC, I can at least run dungeons as there's at least 5-6 others around. While some guilds might be lucky enough to have 10-20 other levelers chatting or doing stuff, with player numbers dwindling, I don't believe that's the majority, especially in a serious H10 raid guild that wants to minimize raidspot dramas.

Is this for the long term good for the game? Only time can tell, but I feel it will, though that's just my opinion. Though I am really happy the 10 vs 25 man hate can finally die.

[eschatological]

Again, that's your opinion, and I would say the majority doesn't agree. Blizzard also doesn't agree. Since they do the raid development and design, I feel like they know better than you do about what mechanics they've had to limit because of 10 man. Who knows what kind of mechanics they've come up, and couldn't implement, to facilitate casual "I don't want to organize anything" 10 mans?

Maybe stick to angry birds.



You don't have to like everyone, you just have to be able to get along. Maybe it's a good practice for real life.

Don't worry though, after all this complaining, I'm sure you'll eventually realize how much easier it will be to find a 20 man guild of like-minded players, since that's what everyone will be doing - rather than splitting the playerbase up into 10s and 25s.

Do you remember Blood Legion's WF H-Vizier kill? In phase 2, they just stacked far away from the boss and dropped a barrier and one other raid CD and healed through *EVERY* attenuation by stacking priests. This sort of thing happens in H25s all the time - never possible in 10s.

I like that Manaflask interviewed some people from Method, BL, and Midwinter, and they all seemed nonplussed, if not eager, about dropping 5 people. Rigg was almost dancing with glee. Yeah, it's real hard.

[Deleted]

The chances of the people playing in a 25 man guild would prefer to play in a 10 man is extremely small.

According to what? Your whole argument falls apart when you can't provide such proof. My guild is 6/14 hc and we have never wanted to switch to 25, same for at least 2 other 10H guild on my server. Heck, I have friends in a top 100 10 man guild that hate this changes and they always hated 25 man.

[Deleted]

According to what? Your whole argument falls apart when you can't provide such proof. My guild is 6/14 hc and we have never wanted to switch to 25, same for at least 2 other 10H guild on my server.

That's because you were going to be ..1/14 hc.. if you were gonna switch to a 25-man.

[Deleted]

That's because you were going to be ..1/14 hc.. if you were gonna switch to a 25-man.

Yes I agree, that's because people on my realm suck ass, it's a low pop server and my side is 0.5x of the other. We were 25 in wrath and had to carry so much weight, in cata we finally ditched of those crappy players.

[Deleted]

That's because you were going to be ..1/14 hc.. if you were gonna switch to a 25-man.

And you my friend, are one of the winners of the douche-bag award of the year, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*CLAP* *CLAP* *CLAP*

[Deja Thoris]

This is the best change in WoW since like dungeon finder... great fix to a problem they never should have caused... RiP lame 10 man heroic guilds nobody cared to even know who was top 3 of... LOVE the change

Like people care about the *snicker* US 24th ranked guild. See I can be uncharitable too!

[Yem]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-20-Man-Mythic
Let's vote people !

[Daerio]

Do you remember Blood Legion's WF H-Vizier kill? In phase 2, they just stacked far away from the boss and dropped a barrier and one other raid CD and healed through *EVERY* attenuation by stacking priests. This sort of thing happens in H25s all the time - never possible in 10s.

I like that Manaflask interviewed some people from Method, BL, and Midwinter, and they all seemed nonplussed, if not eager, about dropping 5 people. Rigg was almost dancing with glee. Yeah, it's real hard.

All these 10 man players that still want to keep having the "10 man is harder" conversation - that's done with.

I never argued this change will be easier for 10 man to deal with - it won't. I argued that this will ultimately lead to better raid mechanics (I hope, but I have faith) and that people will adapt. Yes, those top tier 25 man guilds are probably happy with this change. I'm not in any of those world top 10 guilds. It doesn't mean they're the only people happy with this change.

It's also a fact that the amount of people raiding in a 25 man that would rather raid 10 man is by default extremely small. We don't have an accurate way to account for how many 10 man players would 'rather' raid 25. Quoting numbers off wowprogress is fairly meaningless, we all know that there have been more 10 man kills than 25. (accounting for players) However, that says very little about what the community actually wants. (despite the desire to say it does)

I think the tune of this conversation would be completely different if they picked 15 players instead of 20. 10 man guilds would've been happier with that choice. But that isn't the point. The point is, can they really tune 15 man raids around assuming you have 1 of each class, moreso than 20? Would raid mechanics be less restricted by a 15 man format, or a 20 man format? Blizzard has made that decision, and I really don't think you can argue against that thought process. At best you can whine that Blizzard ISN'T going to change raid mechanics, and we'll just get more of the same, and cry about how your 10 man guild that you've been in for 8 years isn't going to be able to make the adjustment without changing.

[eschatological]

It may lead to better raid mechanics. My point is, raids aren't boring pieces of shit right now. This has been widely hailed as one of the best raiding expansions *EVER* by progression raiders. They have been uniformly better done, better tuned, and came out faster than any other previous expansion. To screw over a significant (who cares if it's majority or not) portion of your heroic raiding scene to *potentially* have better mechanics is ludicrous.

[Daerio]

It may lead to better raid mechanics. My point is, raids aren't boring pieces of shit right now. This has been widely hailed as one of the best raiding expansions *EVER* by progression raiders.

"I like things the way they are, I don't want to change and adapt even though it might be better, and I don't want Blizzard to either."

[Dracodraco]

According to what? Your whole argument falls apart when you can't provide such proof. My guild is 6/14 hc and we have never wanted to switch to 25, same for at least 2 other 10H guild on my server. Heck, I have friends in a top 100 10 man guild that hate this changes and they always hated 25 man.

According to simple logic. The fact is that a ton of 25 man guilds who do not actually want to downsize to 10 man, has had to over the time. Be it because of lacking members, internal dispute, or just not being able to keep up with the added logistical responsibilities of 25 vs 10.
On the other hand, not a single 10 man has evolved into a 25 man guild because logistics are easier or they have too many players - the few 10 mans who decided to merge to turn 25 man has had to plan it out, and in turn, has turned out to be incredible success stories, though (REM and NSS).

But hey, I can't make you believe something you don't want to. Suffice to say, I have atleast five players on my friend list who'd much prefer raiding 25 man to their current 10 man, but they are bound by friends/bad pcs/not being able to find a better suited 25 man guild in accordance to raid times. It's anecdotal evidence, but I think we both know there's no way to get scientific proof for this .
Do also note that you might be in the 50% of the playerbase that LIKES being in a 10 man - just because your sample size is 3 guilds and some friends in maybe 10 other guilds out of almost five thousand and they do not feel the way I described, doesn't mean I can't be right. It just means you haven't found or befriended the people that feels that way.