I wasn't too fussed about the whole back in time with zero paradoxes at first but....

[Deleted]

When I first heard about us going back in time to fight Garrosh I was not at all bothered about it and in fact liked the idea, generally saying to people that making a whole other dimension that links to our is cool. But then I thought on it a bit more then realized that in the Caverns of Time dungeons we were essentially fighting the dragon dudes back from key events of Warcraft so time would not be altered. What was the point of CoT if all it did was make a new dimension somewhere else? If Blizzard was to go with this then it would effectively make the reason why we went to CoT pretty obsolete.

Am I missing something?

And to clarify I am happy with how the expansion is going but this is just a question which sprang to mind.

[Deleted]

We're not going back in time to fight Garrosh. First of all, we're not going to fight Garrosh. Second of all, we're not going back in time. Imagine Garrosh went to Scotland as it was 30 years ago and put it next to Hawaii. We still have new Scotland (Outland) and now we also have Scotland as it used to be 30 years ago in year 2013. Only Garrosh goes back in time, we just go next to Hawaii.

[Deleted]

The Infinite Dragonflight were screwing with our timeline, so we had to correct it.
Garrosh is going to another timelines past (in Draenor).

Basically that timeline Garrosh is going to has nothing to do with us, it's an alternative dimension; think multiverse. Since with the Bronze Dragon and Garrosh are building a portal that connects the dimensions (there past and our present), so we have to stop the Iron Horde or we will have them on our doorstep.

In the Thrall book an assassin chases after Thrall, he turned out to be Aedelas Blackmoore from another dimension where he never raised Thrall and waste his life, he defeats Orgrim Doomhammer and crushes the Horde. this kinda shows that the different timelines can interact with each other.

[Grubjuice]

is garrosh going to another timeline or is he CREATING a new timeline...?

[Deleted]

Basically there are two types of time travel. In CoT the Infinites are going back to mess to our timeline in order to mess things up. In Warlords of Draenor (and also in End Time and Twilight of the Aspects) it's an alternate timeline.

[Delthoric]

Imagine Garrosh went to Scotland as it was 30 years ago and put it next to Hawaii.

Wait, what!? What exactly is this an analogy for? If you mean to say he goes to old Draenor and "puts" it next to our current Draenor, how the hell does that even work? The way I understood it, we're hopping across dimensions. Not moving planets.

Also, I'm pretty sure we'll fight Garrosh at some point. He's just not "the guy. There's a guy behind the guy." Which sounds pretty erotic...

[Snuglz]

is garrosh going to another timeline or is he CREATING a new timeline...?

Garrosh going back to old Draenor and stopping the corruption creates a new timeline running along side our own. Our past is still intact regardless if lets say Durotan died and never had Thrall. Our Thrall would not disappear. And as Jesse Cox stated that he wanted Thrall to carry baby Thrall across the Red Dark Portal to ensure the timelines are ok will not work that way lol

The Iron Horde b/c of the Dark Portal being opened and connected to our Azeroth creates a threat for us, but not to uphold the timelines.

Time Travel is nothing but a tool that Garrosh uses and nothing more.

[Esandarius]

We're not going back in time to fight Garrosh. First of all, we're not going to fight Garrosh. Second of all, we're not going back in time. Imagine Garrosh went to Scotland as it was 30 years ago and put it next to Hawaii. We still have new Scotland (Outland) and now we also have Scotland as it used to be 30 years ago in year 2013. Only Garrosh goes back in time, we just go next to Hawaii.

This is completely false. We are going back in time. Garrosh is linking a Draenor from the past with present Azeroth. He goes back some 30 years in time and by the time we go back (a few months in Azeroth) it's only about 2 years or so since Garrosh has been in Draenor. We'll still be playing in a Draenor that's around 30 years behind our present day Azeroth relatively. It will not be a Draenor that exists as an alternative to Outlands at the same time.

[Deleted]

The Infinite Dragonflight were screwing with our timeline, so we had to correct it.
Garrosh is going to another timelines past (in Draenor).

Basically that timeline Garrosh is going to has nothing to do with us, it's an alternative dimension; think multiverse. Since with the Bronze Dragon and Garrosh are building a portal that connects the dimensions (there past and our present), so we have to stop the Iron Horde or we will have them on our doorstep.

In the Thrall book an assassin chases after Thrall, he turned out to be Aedelas Blackmoore from another dimension where he never raised Thrall and waste his life, he defeats Orgrim Doomhammer and crushes the Horde. this kinda shows that the different timelines can interact with each other.

This makes a lot of sense but I was saying that if all it did was just create a new timeline for the CoT instances then why did we go to CoT in the first place? We could of just let them live in their own timeline and be happy with a dead Arthas/ No Medihv opening the dark portal/ Thrall still being locked in Durnholde.

[Belloc]

This makes a lot of sense but I was saying that if all it did was just create a new timeline for the CoT instances then why did we go to CoT in the first place? We could of just let them live in their own timeline and be happy with a dead Arthas/ No Medihv opening the dark portal/ Thrall still being locked in Durnholde.

CoT instances (minus endtime, perhaps) occur during OUR timeline. WoD occurs in an alternate timeline.

Remember, the aspects lost the brunt of their powers at the end of Cata. Perhaps Nozdormu and the Bronze flight had the power to enter and adjust our timeline prior to that and lost it upon Deathwing's defeat. Perhaps it is that the Bronze flight can no longer adjust our timeline but can still create branching timelines. Or perhaps it is that Garrosh/his accomplice realized that altering our history would have cataclysmic consequences, so they intentionally went to an alternate timeline.

The point here is that this coming situation is completely different than previous ones.

[tigojones]

This is completely false. We are going back in time. Garrosh is linking a Draenor from the past with present Azeroth. He goes back some 30 years in time and by the time we go back (a few months in Azeroth) it's only about 2 years or so since Garrosh has been in Draenor. We'll still be playing in a Draenor that's around 30 years behind our present day Azeroth relatively. It will not be a Draenor that exists as an alternative to Outlands at the same time.

And I think this is where they screwed things up. Why don't they have Garrosh and the Iron Horde conquering Draenor for 30-odd years, building their weapons of war, building their Dark Portal, before attacking?

You know, there's an awful lot of time traveling for what they've specifically stated is NOT a time-travel expansion. It may be to an alternate timeline, but 30 years in the past is still 30 years in the past.

[Deleted]

CoT instances (minus endtime, perhaps) occur during OUR timeline. WoD occurs in an alternate timeline.

Remember, the aspects lost the brunt of their powers at the end of Cata. Perhaps Nozdormu and the Bronze flight had the power to enter and adjust our timeline prior to that and lost it upon Deathwing's defeat. Perhaps it is that the Bronze flight can no longer adjust our timeline but can still create branching timelines. Or perhaps it is that Garrosh/his accomplice realized that altering our history would have cataclysmic consequences, so they intentionally went to an alternate timeline.

The point here is that this coming situation is completely different than previous ones.

I'm not arguing that WoD will not happen, I'm saying that with the rules of time travel in this xpac then essentially we could of let all of the other CoT events happen and it would go into its own timeline and would not cause any problem for us because our timeline is in tact. That is essentially the same thing happening with Draenor because if he can make an alternate timeline by making the iron horde in Draenor while the other timeline which all the previous Warcraft happens still exists, then can't we just essentially leave the CoT events happen and leve them alone unless they try to invade us like Garrosh?

EDIT: Grammar mistakes.

[Akraen]

I think you're attempting to apply real-world physics to this.

Any adjustment in a prior timeline changes the timeline. It's the only explanation beyond the Grandfather paradox. Any alteration of a present action on past events, while doable, simply creates (or already exists) on a different timeline.

If you try to step back and stop looking at time in a linear fashion, imagine everything has happened. It's easiest to do this if you go to what you imagine to be End Time because as humans it's too hard to conceptualize something beyond time. Anyway, consider spilling a glass of milk on a carpet. You spill it one way, milk splatters off into different directions. That's entropy in action. Can't put the milk back into the glass. In another timeline, you spilled the milk slightly differently, splattering into different directions. In another timeline, you didn't spill the milk. In another timeline, you didn't even have the milk.

Every permutation of every event possible exists on its own timeline. The very act of time travel is to cross into another timeline where the occurence "present you" is doing, or altering, is already part of that timeline.

It's as though each possibility, each reality is already calculated and on a channel. Via time travel you just switch channels.

-

Ok Stephen Hawking stuff aside, you're asking if we just let the Infinite Dragonflight do its thing and change the past, how would it work?

It wouldn't. If you apply the closest thing to an understanding for what modern physicists have about time, we could have just let the infinites kill Medivh, because there's a timeline where the dragons forgot to show up, and that must be the one we were in. In other words, you can't modify the timeline you're on, you can only move to different timelines.

This is fun to think about, because there's also a timeline/universe where the Infinite Dragons succeeded. Blizzard could explain this way by stating "magic" - and I would suggest they do.

-

I am sure in developer/lorewriter minds, there is a distinction between modifying past, rewriting history in all timelines, or using magic to alter our own timeline (Warcraft Universe doesn't have to follow our physics rules in real life). Infinite Dragonflight are probably on the magic side, Garrosh is doing what Walter Bishop did.

[Deleted]

This is completely false. We are going back in time. Garrosh is linking a Draenor from the past with present Azeroth. He goes back some 30 years in time and by the time we go back (a few months in Azeroth) it's only about 2 years or so since Garrosh has been in Draenor. We'll still be playing in a Draenor that's around 30 years behind our present day Azeroth relatively. It will not be a Draenor that exists as an alternative to Outlands at the same time.

Actually I believe he is right. Because Blizzard don't want to deal with paradox and timeline stuff, the best way to explain it is that once Draenor is linked with our Azeroth, it's severed from its alternative timeline and enters ours, co-existing with Outland.

Why? If this is an alternative timeline, then there's more problems that will arise. We have a Kil'Jaeden and Burning Legion on Draenor's doorstep, they wont simply give up after failing and this would cause a lot of trouble with two Burning Legions. One alone is a huge threat enough.

That is why I believe the way Blizzard will want it is that Draenor becomes OUR present once linked, it's not from a different timeline or dimension. Though I could be wrong and an alternative Burning Legion does appear, but in my opinion that will only add to the annoying "paradox and timeline" thought scenario which Blizzard said they don't want.

[Togarox]

Many posters are confused with the OP's question and confused about what is happening in general. Garrosh isn't going to an alternate timeline. He is going back in time in our timeline and stopping the orcs from drinking Mannoroth's blood. This creates the alternate timeline that we as players will go to through the portal. The OP's questions was if Garrosh created an alternate timeline by changing the past, wouldn't the same affect happen if we were to let the past change in CoT?

My answer:

From Wowpedia it states "Bronze dragons exist to keep the time stream inviolate and the order of events progressing as the fates intended." Essentially they were tasked to keep alternate timelines from occurring and to keep the timelines goings as they were meant to be. The infinite dragonflight is trying to mess up timelines and create alternate ones where bad things occur (end time for example). However, since the bronze dragonflight has lost most of their abilities, they can't go back in time and stop Garrosh from creating the iron horde.

[huth]

Actually I believe he is right. Because Blizzard don't want to deal with paradox and timeline stuff, the best way to explain it is that once Draenor is linked with our Azeroth, it's severed from its alternative timeline and enters ours, co-existing with Outland.

For our purposes, both scenarios are equivalent. It doesn't actually matter which of them is really true, as the outcome will be the same.

As for why CoT happened: The Infinites were specificially trying to alter our timeline, not create a new one. How they are capable of this is unknown, but then again, how to travel through time is unknown to us as well. We know that it is possible in the WC-verse, but not much more.

[Deleted]

Many posters are confused with the OP's question and confused about what is happening in general. Garrosh isn't going to an alternate timeline. He is going back in time in our timeline and stopping the orcs from drinking Mannoroth's blood. This creates the alternate timeline that we as players will go to through the portal. The OP's questions was if Garrosh created an alternate timeline by changing the past, wouldn't the same affect happen if we were to let the past change in CoT?

My answer:

From Wowpedia it states "Bronze dragons exist to keep the time stream inviolate and the order of events progressing as the fates intended." Essentially they were tasked to keep alternate timelines from occurring and to keep the timelines goings as they were meant to be. The infinite dragonflight is trying to mess up timelines and create alternate ones where bad things occur (end time for example). However, since the bronze dragonflight has lost most of their abilities, they can't go back in time and stop Garrosh from creating the iron horde.

Pretty much this guy answers it well. WoW universe don't have alternative timelines, which ours might have if the theories are correct. The Bronze Dragonflight keeps that from occuring, as mentioned. There's one instant where this fails, the one where Thrall didn't exist and Aedelas Blackmoore won the war against the Horde and became King of Lordaeron. That was a timeline made by the infinite dragonflight I believe, and one that weren't supposed to exist.

Same goes for this Draenor, although there could be several reasons to why this one keeps existing. Like Bronze Dragonflight losing most of their powers and such.

[Esandarius]

For our purposes, both scenarios are equivalent. It doesn't actually matter which of them is really true, as the outcome will be the same.

It does matter because I'm sick of people saying we aren't traveling through time. We are. Garrosh has not been in Draenor for 30 years. 30 years has not passed since the Horde were supposed to attack the Draenei and invade Azeroth. The warlords are not 30 years older than they would have been in the events of WC1. We are seeing that world, those people, at that specific time.

I don't care if Blizzard doesn't want to deal with it. I don't care if they decide that our Velen doesn't meet the other Velen. The point is, within the model they've set up, it would be possible.

[huth]

It does matter because I'm sick of people saying we aren't traveling through time. We are. Garrosh has not been in Draenor for 30 years. 30 years has not passed since the Horde were supposed to attack the Draenei and invade Azeroth. The warlords are not 30 years older than they would have been in the events of WC1. We are seeing that world, those people, at that specific time.

I don't care if Blizzard doesn't want to deal with it. I don't care if they decide that our Velen doesn't meet the other Velen. The point is, within the model they've set up, it would be possible.

Which isn't actually relevant. Whether that happens because we traveled back 30 years in time or because that world moved 30 years slower than us doesn't matter, the result is the same.

[Deleted]

Many posters are confused with the OP's question and confused about what is happening in general. Garrosh isn't going to an alternate timeline. He is going back in time in our timeline and stopping the orcs from drinking Mannoroth's blood. This creates the alternate timeline that we as players will go to through the portal. The OP's questions was if Garrosh created an alternate timeline by changing the past, wouldn't the same affect happen if we were to let the past change in CoT?

My answer:

From Wowpedia it states "Bronze dragons exist to keep the time stream inviolate and the order of events progressing as the fates intended." Essentially they were tasked to keep alternate timelines from occurring and to keep the timelines goings as they were meant to be. The infinite dragonflight is trying to mess up timelines and create alternate ones where bad things occur (end time for example). However, since the bronze dragonflight has lost most of their abilities, they can't go back in time and stop Garrosh from creating the iron horde.

Togarox hit the nail on the head with this, most of the answers were for a question which I did not ask but instead telling me that it does happen. I know it happened it just me asking if we would just leave COT so they have their own timeline.

I think you're attempting to apply real-world physics to this.

Any adjustment in a prior timeline changes the timeline. It's the only explanation beyond the Grandfather paradox. Any alteration of a present action on past events, while doable, simply creates (or already exists) on a different timeline.

If you try to step back and stop looking at time in a linear fashion, imagine everything has happened. It's easiest to do this if you go to what you imagine to be End Time because as humans it's too hard to conceptualize something beyond time. Anyway, consider spilling a glass of milk on a carpet. You spill it one way, milk splatters off into different directions. That's entropy in action. Can't put the milk back into the glass. In another timeline, you spilled the milk slightly differently, splattering into different directions. In another timeline, you didn't spill the milk. In another timeline, you didn't even have the milk.

Every permutation of every event possible exists on its own timeline. The very act of time travel is to cross into another timeline where the occurence "present you" is doing, or altering, is already part of that timeline.

It's as though each possibility, each reality is already calculated and on a channel. Via time travel you just switch channels.

-

Ok Stephen Hawking stuff aside, you're asking if we just let the Infinite Dragonflight do its thing and change the past, how would it work?

It wouldn't. If you apply the closest thing to an understanding for what modern physicists have about time, we could have just let the infinites kill Medivh, because there's a timeline where the dragons forgot to show up, and that must be the one we were in. In other words, you can't modify the timeline you're on, you can only move to different timelines.

This is fun to think about, because there's also a timeline/universe where the Infinite Dragons succeeded. Blizzard could explain this way by stating "magic" - and I would suggest they do.

-

I am sure in developer/lorewriter minds, there is a distinction between modifying past, rewriting history in all timelines, or using magic to alter our own timeline (Warcraft Universe doesn't have to follow our physics rules in real life). Infinite Dragonflight are probably on the magic side, Garrosh is doing what Walter Bishop did.

Akraen comes second, best explanation for time travel. 10/10 would read again.