PvE vs PvP gear disparity

[Useful]

Learn to PvE once a week and you to can have real gear.

spill your wisdom on us sir and say how exactly players are getting their heroic gear raiding once a week? conjuring it from air?

i just checked your post in another thread. it says - learn to pvp. I guess we got another ignorant elitist here.

[Raeph]

From what I can tell the commentary from dedicated pvpers seems to be:

I want my PvP gear to let me succeed in Arenas.
I want my PvP gear to let me succeed in Battle Grounds.
I want my PvP gear to let me succeed in World PvP.
I want my PvP gear to let me succeed in World PvE.

Success can be gauged differently by different people, but I think it is fair to say that in this context, having a 50% chance at victory against another player, and being able to fulfill PvE objectives is success.

For the PvE players the desire is similar but not the same:

I want easy access to a gear set that allows me to do Arenas if I want to.
I want easy access to a gear set that allows me to do Battlegrounds if I want to.
I want to not have to completely switch out my entire set if I am ambushed in World PvP to have a chance to survive.
I want to have a clear gear progression path that increases my characters power against PvE targets.

The main difference between the two groups is less the "gear disparity" between the two camps, and more about what the two camps want their gear to do.

This may be a generalization but PvPers usually aren't used to having to switch out half to all of their gear set depending on what kind of content they are doing. There is pretty much one armor set per role (per season) and it is modified slightly with gems, enchants and reforging to let the PvPer get the most out of it. Considering the heavy bias in the budget towards defense and survivability there is generally not much room in the budget for large amounts of DPS stats.

PvEers, on the other hand, are much more used to carrying around multiple sets of gear, different rings, trinkets or, in prior expansions, resist pieces, to succeed in certain raid fights. PvEers will generally sacrifice survivability stats in favor of more DPS even at the risk of getting near one shot under certain situations, as long as there is enough HP left, after a large hit, to be healed back up to full before the next bit of damage comes in.

PvEers will get the gear, carrying around multiple full sets at times, to get the most out of their rotation and talents for highest potential output.
PvPers will use generally one set, while moving around a couple of isolated pieces, to react to opponents to survive long enough to wear them down.

There will always be a difference in PvP and PvE gear because the two camps want different things from their gear.

Consider myself for instance, as a tank. I have had, in some teirs of content, upwards of 6 trinkets on me, half of a full set of gear if I needed to go High stam for a magic fight, as well as a full set of DPS gear if I needed to go DPS, not counting prior content resist pieces(if in the applicable teir, though not valid anylonger). Granted now with Prot pallys and Ret pallys sharing near identical gear, I mainly only have to carry around a couple of different trinkets, the ret teir to get a 4pc bonus and a 2h, along with my tank set. Current set + 11 pieces of gear at minimum.

If I were to pvp, what would I have gear wise? A full Ret pvp set, a set of pvp trinkets for damage mitigation and anti-CC and a set of pve damage trinkets for dps and the pvp 2h, maybe having a spare PvE weapon just incase I don't need the survivability that would afford me. Current set +3 pieces of gear.

The worldview between the two camps is too different, honestly. One side will always be in the marginalized position. PvPers with the smaller sector of overall content will most likely always be in this position.

PvE gear is to increase character power as another gating for content. PvP gear is a reward for skill that allows you to last longer against other players in instanced PvP, by blizzards own admission.

The different gear is made for a different purpose, using a different value system. There is some crossover, but generally the different gear can't be equally effective in both purposes.

[Torais]

You're out in the environment ofcourse the heroic PvE-gear is going to be stronger PvE = Player vs Environment.

Yes because a player attacking another player is clearly NOT PvP, right?

It's amazing the stupidity some will delve to.

Learn to PvE once a week and you to can have real gear.

Learn to PvP and you won't need a laughable crutch to preserve your fragile ego.

[Spiffums]

It just occurred to me, though I may be missing obvious arguments against it.

Why not add -PvP Power (Yes, MINUS) on PvE equipment?

Doesn't have to be a BIG difference, just enough to offset a decent amount of ilvl (numbers should obv be calculated and tested).

Which PVE stat would you be willing to give up for that? And they should put + PVE Power on PVP gear and which stat would you like them to rob from to make that happen? Stamina since it's the biggest number on PVP gear.

[Stolensouls]

spill your wisdom on us sir and say how exactly players are getting their heroic gear raiding once a week? conjuring it from air?

i just checked your post in another thread. it says - learn to pvp. I guess we got another ignorant elitist here.

It doesn't require heroic gear to stomp PvP players Normal gear will do which you can obtain raiding once a week. In the meantime im going to continue having fun stomping PvP players and their shitty gear while they come here to whine that they can't have everything in this game. PvP players are starting to sound a lot like casuals.

[Deleted]

This is such a senseless argument

No it really isnt, you have your pvp-minigame and you just want more, be glad (pun lol) you can shine in your arenas and battlegrounds.

These threads with QQing pvpers about not being able to kill people on the timeless isle... rofl

[Torais]

It doesn't require heroic gear to stomp PvP players Normal gear will do which you can obtain raiding once a week. In the meantime im going to continue having fun stomping PvP players and their shitty gear while they come here to whine that they can't have everything in this game. PvP players are starting to sound a lot like casuals.

Again, if you need a ridiculous advantage to bolster your inability to fight other players, I think you have bigger problems then gear issues.

Either way, enjoy it while it lasts. At least the devs have finally admitted the mistake and working to shut it down. I guess you are going to have to actually learn to fend for yourself then. You can look down your nose at PvP players in some silly effort to hide your inadequateness all you like but it won't stop the change.

[Weightlifter]

There is hope! All the PvE heroes will have their undeserved advantage stripped from them in the expansion. PvP gear will once again be BiS for all PvP - period - as it should be.

The lead PvP designer on WoW said in a recent tweet, "Current pitch would be conquest and heroic gear have same ilevel. PvP Power becomes part of the budget."

Reference: https://twitter.com/holinka/status/400020059609116672

That will mean conquest gear will have very high rating requirement and be out of reach for most people. It will also mean that heroic raiders will have to PvP for non-RNG based extra loot, which will cause huge amounts of QQ and was the reason why it was changed in the first place.

And I don't know what game you play but PvP gear is already BiS for arenas and RBGs. WoW PvP isn't balanced around world PvP, just like PvE isn't balanced around solo questing.

[Grishnaar]

Which PVE stat would you be willing to give up for that? And they should put + PVE Power on PVP gear and which stat would you like them to rob from to make that happen? Stamina since it's the biggest number on PVP gear.

Well, I'd be perfectly fine if they lower stats on PvP gear (if it's neccessary) and add more PvP power. Making it as good as PvE gear, but only against players.
That's, ofc, only 1 way of doing it.

In other words, PvE gear would have better stats and thus be better for PvE.
PvP would have more PvP power, enough to offset ilvl difference completely, and would be better in PvP (Hell, I'd settle with same), but would remain inferior against NPCs.

Or any other way which would acomplish this.

EDIT: Or like I said before, add - PvP Power (minus) on PvE gear and keep everything the same. Voila.

[Littlepwny]

if you join MY World you get destroyed
if i join YOUR World i get destroyed

Your World? Your world is instances with scripted fights.

My World? That is instanced pvp zones.

Our World? That is all the open zones. You should have an easier time killing PvE monster and I should have an easier time killing PvP players. Or at the very least, top Tier PvP gear equal to top Tier PvE gear for open-world PvP.

As far as I am concerned, in a PvP server the player is part of the 'E' and that means that a properly PvP geared player should dominate or at the very least not fighting an uphill battle.

[Jediguy]

No it really isnt, you have your pvp-minigame and you just want more, be glad (pun lol) you can shine in your arenas and battlegrounds.

Begging the question doesn't make it so; curious how you didn't have the balls to address the rest of the post where I tore that stupid argument apart. Instead, you try to belittle something you don't like, which isn't an argument at all, but is merely a condescending way to beg the question. Here, let me show you:

PvE raiding/dungeons is a mini-game in WoW. It's where people go who can't think outside scripted fights and they are coddled by 3, soon to be 4 difficulties to allow essentially any player to see all the content. PvE heroes also typically have no shortage of addons that tell them what is happening and what to do during these boss fights, holding their hand to help them succeed and boost their little egos. This mini-game does not require the player to predict or out-think any other sentient being, instead placing them in an environment where their greatest challenge is to memorize a scripted, choreographed dance about how to stay out of purple stuff. Indeed, WoW is based on PvP from the start by having every player choose one of two warring factions, being inherently in conflict with the other side. In fact, there are entire realms called "PvP realms" that focus on this one aspect of the game above all others. Even in PvE realms, there is no shortage of PvP incorporated, with World PvP objectives added every expansion since vanilla. Further still, the first titles ever available to players were PvP titles - not PvE titles - emphasizing the focus of the game. Player abilities are balanced around PvP - not PvE - demonstrating just what part of the game is the driving force behind the design of abilities.

There. Does that help at all? Of course not; I just picked and chose certain aspects of the game to emphasize the importance of PvP and minimize the value of PvE content. Now that you've seen how your strategy is ineffective, I suggest you focus on the arguments made instead of trying to flame the other party themselves with baseless accusations of being second-class citizens whose primary enjoyment in the game is nothing more than a "mini-game," suggesting their concerns, investments, and triumphs don't really matter.

- - - Updated - - -

That will mean conquest gear will have very high rating requirement and be out of reach for most people.

This assumption is unwarranted and is not indicated anywhere by the lead PvP designer. While it's possible that rating might be once again required for the best conquest gear, that would not mandate it would be required for all conquest gear. As it is, however, Holinka made no mention of additional requirements or tiers of PvP gear, negating any basis for this conjecture.

It will also mean that heroic raiders will have to PvP for non-RNG based extra loot, which will cause huge amounts of QQ and was the reason why it was changed in the first place.

I'm not sure I follow - PvP has always been non-RNG based loot. Increasing the iLevel of PvP gear doesn't change that fact.

And I don't know what game you play but PvP gear is already BiS for arenas and RBGs. WoW PvP isn't balanced around world PvP, just like PvE isn't balanced around solo questing.

This old, tired argument again. Here's another one of my canned responses for you. Share it with your friends.

I've heard it said, "Well, PvP gear is still the best in battlerounds and arena," and that's true, but you know what? We play the "WORLD" of Warcraft, not the "11 battlegrounds of Warcraft." When our effectiveness is limited to a few choice instances, it's an unfair restriction that makes people feel like second-class citizens placed in quarantine. Further still, World PvP matters more to me than instanced PvP. In a battleground, nothing you do matters outside personal titles and currency. I already have titles like "the bloodthirsty" and "battlemaster." I'm overflowing with honor points and I'm usually capped on conquest. In the "world," however, you can actually "take" things, secure objectives, and reap rewards for your faction. That's what I love: doing something that has some sort of lasting impact and isn't wiped clean every 10-25 minutes. And now we PvPers can't even do that, because I can't throw a stone without hitting several raid-geared PvE heroes who think they're something special in dominating PvP in PvE gear.

[Weightlifter]

World PvP matters more to me than instanced PvP

But not to Blizzard, or the majority of player base. Stop being so self-centered.

[Jediguy]

But not to Blizzard, or the majority of player base. Stop being so self-centered.

And you have statistical data to back up your claim? Yeah, didn't think so; you have conjecture at best. You mistakenly suppose that because I assert that World PvP is important, it must be the most important aspect of the game; that because many enjoy it, most enjoy it. Those are two different claims - your stupidity is forgiven. If World PvP didn't matter, it's very curious why Blizzard would continue to add World PvP content every expansion since Vanilla. When entire realms are identified by the conditions of World PvP, it's hard to say it's not important and enjoyed by many.

If you want to talk about what Blizzard thinks, then reference the lead PvP designer's comment I linked earlier in the thread: he agrees with us World PvPers that the current system is broken and has proposed a fix to once again make PvP gear BiS for all things PvP - including World PvP. Deal with it.

[Anger78]

But not to Blizzard, or the majority of player base. Stop being so self-centered.

Then why the hell do people roll onto a PvP server if the majority of players don't care about world PvP? Why the hell do these servers even exist if Blizzard doesn't care about them?
Maybe all the PvE players need to stop being so self-centered.

[Acelius]

While i think a PvE player should have a higher damage output outside of instanced PvP, i feel like the problem is the base-resilience. I think PvP gear should be the only way to get resilience, and then every new player just have to get steamrolled in a few BGs.

Dont get me wrong, i do 95% PvE, but me having 75% resilience is dumb, and a PvP geared player should have the edge in a fight, resilience wise. I dont want PvP gear to be viable in a raid.

EDIT: I did alot of PvP in Cataclysm, and i loved getting the feeling of progression as i could fight longer and longer and eventually kick alot of ass when i had a full Conquest set. That feeling is missing today.

[Deleted]

Outdoor: Pve gear = pvp win

[Victoriaautmors]

The 'world' isnt a pve environment its a mixed environment. Why not have pvp gear scale down when entering raids or instances? This is a very bad soulution and i hope it gets changed. As for that get buffs argument sure i can get buffs but so can pve heroes, actually right now most of world pvp is a mess consisting of groups of buffed up heroic geared censer using 2 shoting everything in their path.

It is my choice not to raid heroic and why should i be punished in wordl pvp because of that? Pvp gear should be better when killing player while pve gear should be better for killing monsters.

Imo a simple fix would be to have a pvp power bonus that doesent work in arenas and bgs. The sole purpose of this buff woule be to bridge the damage gap between arena and heroic gear.

[Trubo]

There is hope! All the PvE heroes will have their undeserved advantage stripped from them in the expansion. PvP gear will once again be BiS for all PvP - period - as it should be.

The lead PvP designer on WoW said in a recent tweet, "Current pitch would be conquest and heroic gear have same ilevel. PvP Power becomes part of the budget."

Reference: https://twitter.com/holinka/status/400020059609116672

Only complaints would be:

1. Would make forming Flex groups a bitch since currently no add-on tells you exactly what their gear is unless you're standing right next to them.
2. Depends how much of the budget is PvP related stats and whether or not they'll have a chance at tertiary stats.

And you have statistical data to back up your claim? Yeah, didn't think so; you have conjecture at best. You mistakenly suppose that because I assert that World PvP is important, it must be the most important aspect of the game; that because many enjoy it, most enjoy it. Those are two different claims - your stupidity is forgiven. If World PvP didn't matter, it's very curious why Blizzard would continue to add World PvP content every expansion since Vanilla. When entire realms are identified by the conditions of World PvP, it's hard to say it's not important and enjoyed by many.

If you want to talk about what Blizzard thinks, then reference the lead PvP designer's comment I linked earlier in the thread: he agrees with us World PvPers that the current system is broken and has proposed a fix to once again make PvP gear BiS for all things PvP - including World PvP. Deal with it.

While it isn't a complete set of data we do have access to some of those that participate in raids (World of Logs and similar raid tracking websites) and rated pvp (don't know how widely accepted worldofwargraphs and similar sites are). However my brief google check doesn't show any easily navigable public data beyond the top 50-300ish players for both PvE and PvP. I personally do not have the data or a method to compile figures for number of characters that pve at end game versus pvp at end game, or both so this part of the discussion is at a standstill until someone is able to offer this data.

But since you mentioned it in an earlier post; there are currently 11 instanced Battlegrounds (all can be random or rated), 7 (correct me if I'm wrong) instanced Arenas, and ~10 world zones from Vanilla to MoP that are dedicated or focused on PvP. For PvE there are currently 60 instanced dungeons, 32 instanced raids, and 15 instanced scenarios for the same time span dedicated or focused on PvE. The rest of the world is largely "contested" territory that offers PvE quests/monsters and the chance to encounter PCs and NPCs of the opposing faction. Based solely on the amount of content designed with a singular focus I do not think it is odd to suggest that Blizzard values WoW as more of a PvE game than a PvP game; if they didn't why do they continually add so much PvE specific content in each (and within) expansion yet relatively little PvP specific content?

As for the topic of the thread I think that a gear level cap while out in the world regardless of type, with the level cap increasing each patch to reflect character strength progression, would be an easy way to solve the issue. While this will anger people who want to show how much of a badass their character I think this would be outweighed by possible increase in server communities due to necessity for groups to complete the most challenging of world content while also making world pvp more about skill rather than gear (note that it doesn't complete remove gear from the issue simply because of procs, set bonuses and tertiary stats).

[Grishnaar]

As for the topic of the thread I think that a gear level cap while out in the world regardless of type, with the level cap increasing each patch to reflect character strength progression, would be an easy way to solve the issue. While this will anger people who want to show how much of a badass their character I think this would be outweighed by possible increase in server communities due to necessity for groups to complete the most challenging of world content while also making world pvp more about skill rather than gear (note that it doesn't complete remove gear from the issue simply because of procs, set bonuses and tertiary stats).

I'm pretty sure this is a wrong approach for the reason you mentioned. Getting high ilvl gear only to have it downgraded everywhere except PvE instances isn't the solution, everyone would get mad and with a reason! xD

Why not just do the math and add more PvP power on all PvP gear so that it's on par with PvE gear?
So in the end PvE gear is still better against NPCs, PvP gear still is best in Instanced PvP and both are equal in the world against players.

EDIT: The only problem I can see atm is that players do more dmg in Instanced PvP than intended.
I guess if that's the case, then simply downgrade PvP gear for instances aswell *shrugs*

[Deleted]

Why not just do the math and add more PvP power on all PvP gear so that it's on par with PvE gear?
So in the end PvE gear is still better against NPCs, PvP gear still is best in Instanced PvP and both are equal in the world against players.

damage will become too high, burst classes will be destroying people in few gcds- basicly what is world pvp at the moment