Gear Changes in Warlords of Draenor

[Sinnewah]

So how do they (devs) think this will effect loot distribution? Jimmy and Johnny both got a piece of gear last week, but Jimmy claims that this crit piece will give him 100 more dps then Johnny and it is his BiS. However, we still have Jack, James and Justin who don't really go for crit, but are lacking that item level.....

This. I can see raiders holding out and not taking gear because they don't want to give up their chance at the correct stats, given once they take a piece of gear they have to wait for everyone else to get the same ilvl piece before they can get another shot at it. I also think about the poor loot masters who have to sift through this mess...two pieces dropped that are the same, piece A has a gem slot, and piece B doesn't. Piece B has optimal stats, Piece A has less-than-optimal stats. Five people ask for them both, since they can both be used in the slot, but they want one of the items more than the other, and it will vary by raider. Ugly.

[nightfalls]

Every example you provided depends on the amount of stat provided. Do you know how much of the tertiary stat will be on an item? Or are you just assuming everyone at blizz is bad at math and will load so much of the tertiary stats on items that it will break the game?

None of it depends on stat provided unless it turns a "flavor" into "non-flavor." Cleave is always extra damage, so it's never "just flavor" (its relative value can be disputed but we know these are "bonus" stats). Run speed is arguably not flavor for the reason I gave. Me claiming that AoE damage reduction and Life Steal are not important (and "just flavor") is actually giving both stats and the balancing team a bit of credit.

"Game breaking" is one thing. But you did not use that term. You used the term "just flavor." Which the stats clearly are not.

[Thornrayn]

See this is where the reforge could actually come in handy. Lets say you 1k gold (just tossing a number out) to switch 1 secondary stat to another, now this would not work for ILvl, sockets or tertiary stats. You could in essence create awesome and in some cases experimental gear combos with out going completely insane waiting for the right stat roll.

[Constraint]

I have a feeling that, instead of simplifying the system, it is becoming much more complicated...

How is it becoming more complicated? It either drops with additional stats/ilvl/socket or it doesn't. If that's what you call "much more complicated".. I'd hate for you to see something that was actually more complicated, put it that way.

Oh and fellow raid leaders/officers - don't be dense. There aren't too many options. Either you enforce people taking upgrades if they're upgrades, or you allow them to "save up" for the good pieces. It's pretty simple.



Oh, and Thornrayne I strongly disagree. I think it'll be great having interesting loot drop throughout a tier, even when you have all the "items" you already want - still being able to find upgrades is always a good thing. Carrot on the stick, and all that jazz.

[nightfalls]

I strongly disagree. I think it'll be great having interesting loot drop throughout a tier, even when you have all the "items" you already want - still being able to find upgrades is always a good thing. Carrot on the stick, and all that jazz.

This is where my "RNG is good but not too much RNG" comes in. Carrot on the stick is nice until you realize that you have a carrot on a stick.

[Klingers]

What is multi-strike? I'm thinking some kind of %-chance for an instant swing-timer reset, but I could be wrong.

[Orkwuzhere]

This. I can see raiders holding out and not taking gear because they don't want to give up their chance at the correct stats, given once they take a piece of gear they have to wait for everyone else to get the same ilvl piece before they can get another shot at it. I also think about the poor loot masters who have to sift through this mess...two pieces dropped that are the same, piece A has a gem slot, and piece B doesn't. Piece B has optimal stats, Piece A has less-than-optimal stats. Five people ask for them both, since they can both be used in the slot, but they want one of the items more than the other, and it will vary by raider. Ugly.

You're still going to see spreadsheets when Mr Robot or other gear checkers will expect you to have these 3rd stats min-maxed with your main stats to be an efficient raider. For example, if Life Steal is going to be good for tanks, Mr Robot and gear checkers will tell you to get it or buzz off. WoD is not making stats easier no matter how you see it. Depending on your class and Blizzard's itemization, this can be absolutely dreadful (Blizzard's itemization has been pretty bad).

[nightfalls]

What is multi-strike? I'm thinking some kind of %-chance for an instant swing-timer reset, but I could be wrong.

Celestalon explained it pretty well on twitter.

[iperson]

None of it depends on stat provided unless it turns a "flavor" into "non-flavor." Cleave is always extra damage, so it's never "just flavor" (its relative value can be disputed but we know these are "bonus" stats). Run speed is arguably not flavor for the reason I gave. Me claiming that AoE damage reduction and Life Steal are not important (and "just flavor") is actually giving both stats and the balancing team a bit of credit.

"Game breaking" is one thing. But you did not use that term. You used the term "just flavor." Which the stats clearly are not.

If it's not game breaking then what are we talking about? Is the sky falling or not? If it is, give us some numbers to backup your claim. They've said the game isn't balanced around you having every piece perfectly itemized. They've even said the pieces will be rare enough that you shouldn't expect to ever put together a full set.

Cleave is always extra damage...

Oh, and since we're clearly playing a game of semantics I'd love to see how cleave is extra damage on a single target encounter.

[Ilfayt]

"Hey guys, let's get rid of stats like Hit for...more bullshit stats players will still have to min-max and grind. Oh yea, we're going to make it more mandatory to have the 'right gems' even if our itemization is still a joke."

Why bother getting rid of stuff like Hit if you STILL have to min-max with gems and the new, dumber stats like Cleave and Life Steal (Life Steal!? Really!?)!? Blizzard's not making it easier; they made it even more annoying.

Maybe with 7.0, Blizzard will admit Mastery is one of the biggest pain in the ass stats that should have been removed with Hit, Expertise, and Parry for WoD. Screw Mastery (stupidest stat since Armor Penetration).



It's not a fun stat when gear checkers like Mr. Robot tell you, "Raise Life Steal and Cleave or get the fuck out of raiding, you scrub." You still have to min-max no matter how much Blizzard tries to hide this (I don't hate min-maxing, but don't pretend it's easier with more bullshit stats Wow doesn't need).

Why are you comparing Secondary stats to Tertiary stats? Why not compare Hit/Expertise to the new Secondaries, Amplify, Multistrike, and Readiness? I don't get why you're trying to compare the Life Steal/Cleave stuff to Hit/Expertise... the 3 stats(+Bonus armor) are all stats that are going to be valuable 'after a cap', unlike Hit/Expertise, and in most cases, Dodge/Parry. They're going to still have 'weight', and thus not be as easily expendable as Hit/Exp. The thing that made Hit/Expertise appalling in my mind, even more so than the 'virtual hurdle' they provided, was that they were utterly worthless past a specific point, being over half the reason Reforge existed in the first place. Reforge was a 'band-aid' for a scourge in WoW, pointless cap stats, and now they're having the balls to actually fix the problem rather than just paint over it.


Outside of cutting edge Heroic Progression, you don't have to 'min-max down to the wire'... I don't know what guilds you raid/have raided with, but just a general understanding and attempt to gear will get you into most normal raiding guilds, and some heroic ones. Tertiary are being aimed at 'nifty-side-bonus'(hell, it's apparent even by the name 'Tertiary'), so, with know one knowing exactly how strong or weak they are, all we have to go on is their word, which as I said, is tilted towards them being rare, but 'nice' little bonuses, and not worth dropping an ilvl tier or side-grading out of desired stats for.

[iperson]

You're still going to see spreadsheets when Mr Robot or other gear checkers will expect you to have these 3rd stats min-maxed with your main stats to be an efficient raider. For example, if Life Steal is going to be good for tanks, Mr Robot and gear checkers will tell you to get it or buzz off. WoD is not making stats easier no matter how you see it. Depending on your class and Blizzard's itemization, this can be absolutely dreadful (Blizzard's itemization has been pretty bad).

Any guild that says you can't join without an item that takes on average 10 weeks to drop per raid isn't a guild I would want to app to. Remember, they're saying there's something like a 10% chance an item will have tertiary stats, there's not even a guarantee that the stat you're looking for will drop prior to the next tier. So like I said, I'd avoid the kind of stupid that would have to be present in a guild with that requirement.

[Ilfayt]

You're still going to see spreadsheets when Mr Robot or other gear checkers will expect you to have these 3rd stats min-maxed with your main stats to be an efficient raider. For example, if Life Steal is going to be good for tanks, Mr Robot and gear checkers will tell you to get it or buzz off. WoD is not making stats easier no matter how you see it. Depending on your class and Blizzard's itemization, this can be absolutely dreadful (Blizzard's itemization has been pretty bad).

See, that's exactly where you're missing the point. You're making assumptions about stats that you haven't seen the values on. Lifesteal was put into the game via a trinket in SoO(as were all the other Tertiary and secondaries), and guess what happened? It was ignored by tanks. Even at 3% overall lifesteal, it wasn't enough. Sure it was in a situation where it actually had 'weight', but the point remains, it wasn't so 'amazing' that tanks dropped whatever trinket they were rolling to go after this 'shiny new lifesteal' stat, hell some of them even outright avoided it even if they had a high tier version of it versus a low tier(Normal-Heroic Juggernaut's is still worse than LFR ToT trinkets).

[nightfalls]

I think it's pretty clear that you are either straight out extremely stupid or you are being deliberately dense. I am hoping it's the former (which would mean you have a legitimate excuse) but it's probably the latter. Either way, I am done responding to you after this.

Oh, and since we're clearly playing a game of semantics I'd love to see how cleave is extra damage on a single target encounter.

1) There are only ~2/14 encounters in Siege of Orgrimmar heroic where there is just one and only one attackable target. Most of the hardest DPS checks not just this tier but in most tiers involve adds that need to die and can be cleaved.

2) Healer cleave is never irrelevant.

[iperson]

I think it's pretty clear that you are either plain stupid or you are being deliberately dense. I am hoping it's the former (which would mean you have a legitimate excuse) but it's probably the latter. Either way, I am done responding to you after this.



1) There are only ~2/14 encounters in Siege of Orgrimmar heroic where there is just one and only one attackable target. Most of the hardest DPS checks not just this tier but in most tiers involve adds that need to die and can be cleaved.

2) Healer cleave is never irrelevant.

1) Always must mean something different where you're from.

2) You said "always extra damage". When exactly would healer cleave be damage?

Oh noes, you're done with me...

[Orkwuzhere]

Reforge is awful, and it's good that it's being removed. It's not going to fix Blizzard's abysmal itemization.

Don't be silly to think guilds won't care if you have some bullshit, tertiary stats like Life Steal if you're a healer that doesn't have armor with healing-based, tertiary stats even if you know what you're doing (just throwing these stats names out as an example). Even normal raid guilds be irritated with you if your stats aren't anywhere near optimized (there's a healing difference between optimized and whatever armor that's not optimized).

[Granyala]

I think everyone is blowing this WAY out of proportion.

The normal unsocketed/non-tertiary gear that drops will be just fine to complete whatever raid it dropped from, etc.
Do you -need- Warforged gear to complete Heroic SoO?

It's just the weird mindset of the WoW players, that makes them discard all suboptimal pieces as junk, even if the difference between them is something like 30 main stat, a value you never feel in the real world.

The only thing I don't like is the change to the sockets. Ain't fun to be a jewel crafter, when sockets are super rare.
But then again GC would like to axe profession bonuses all together, so I might just not bother leveling mine at all, if it doesn't benefit the raid.

[Deleted]

I thought warforged was/is enough RNG

And maybe socket or no socket.

Random stats is pushing it too far. Guess they just aim for a way to make people keep their subs active longer until the next content release.

Not that I particularly hate the changes but you know...

[nightfalls]

Even normal raid guilds be irritated with you if your stats aren't anywhere near optimized (there's a healing difference between optimized and whatever armor that's not optimized).

Right, you don't have to be world first to say realize the value of hit cap. Those that somehow equate caring about your stats to "OMG CARE U RNT WORLD FIRST DURRR" are either just trolling or stupid, and to repeat, I hope to god it's the latter for the sake of the human race... but it's probably the former.

[Janon]

A Holy Paladin has a raid tier set from the Blackrock Foundry. If she switches to her Retribution spec, the tier set is still functional, as the primary stats and set bonuses change. However, if she prefers Haste for her Retribution spec and Crit in her Holy spec (and is someone who enjoys the min-max game), then a single set of armor may not be optimal.

That means I'll have to farm for my 2 equipment sets like today (if I want to play my class at his best)
Plus I have more random possibilites to have my chest with 1) the right secondary stats 2) the right gems socket 3) warforged.

I love the idea to switch easily to a new spec (I'm a protection paladin and occasionally I have to heal) but not sure this will be a real improvement if I have to find ALWAYS new BIS every time I drop something.

But without reforge to improve the "wrong" item I've taken. To have a goal is important. Especially if you share loots with others.

[nightfalls]

The tier tokens seems quite irritating because people will always be fighting over them until tier's end. Considering the number of people who share a tier token it can be pretty frustrating.