The fall of Jaina Proudmoore

[delus]

Then please, by all means. Show me your interpretation of how the following isn't Jaina losing the trust of mages in Dalaran, her looking down on the Council, and her blowing off responsibilities to the Kirin Tor.

Simple. Knaak was trying to portray a person having a difficult time adjusting to their new position as leader. You seem to think it is something much more.

[riem2k]

If someone nuked my hometown, i would probably feel and react the sameway Jaina does.

[Trassk]

If someone nuked my hometown, i would probably feel and react the sameway Jaina does.

stands to reason, I mean.. and this might be a sensative subject for some but it does compare, when the twin towers were bombed, despite whatever the more logical and rational minded people thought, there were many, many more ignorant people who saw it as a moment to attack anything related to the middle east, some to the point of depravity against middle eastern people living in america. hindu temples were attacked because these people suddenly thought anyone from the middle east was out to get them. infact they recorded a 1700% rise against muslims after it by americans.

point is, yeah, theramore was a tragedy, but now she's no better then those people irl who would attack a muslim man in america because of the 9/11 incident. They got the orc who arranged for theramores destruction, but that means nothing to jaina, now, all horde members are the enemy.

[Aquamonkey]

Simple. Knaak was trying to portray a person having a difficult time adjusting to their new position as leader. You seem to think it is something much more.

Yes, of course. Her admittedly acting based on emotion instead of sense, disregarding urgent Kirin Tor matters to help her boyfriend, and looking down on the Council are just her having trouble adjusting...

Keep in mind this is happening after the Purge. She's already been leader for quite some time. And it's not like she's new to this kind of responsibility.

What about the growing distrust from mages she's leading?

[DeeTwelve]

stands to reason, I mean.. and this might be a sensative subject for some but it does compare, when the twin towers were bombed, despite whatever the more logical and rational minded people thought, there were many, many more ignorant people who saw it as a moment to attack anything related to the middle east, some to the point of depravity against middle eastern people living in america. hindu temples were attacked because these people suddenly thought anyone from the middle east was out to get them. infact they recorded a 1700% rise against muslims after it by americans.

point is, yeah, theramore was a tragedy, but now she's no better then those people irl who would attack a muslim man in america because of the 9/11 incident. They got the orc who arranged for theramores destruction, but that means nothing to jaina, now, all horde members are the enemy.

This whole comparison is honestly pretty repugnant. Also horribly incorrect.

Garrosh was the Warchief of the Horde. His war crimes were committed by the Horde military. Furthermore, no one in the Horde gave a shit about those crimes. The rest of the Horde only decided to rebel when Garrosh turned against them.

Jaina is angry at precisely the right political entity, the Horde. It's hilarious how mad it makes you guys that someone, anyone, evern a fictional person somewhere doesn't buy your precious dipshit "underdog hero" image. I have bad news for you, nobody but Horde fanboys ever bought that shit in the first place.

[Littleraven]

So what is it exactly that makes people think Jaina Proudmore is corrupted/insane/on her monthly. I'm pretty sure most Alliance leaders feel the same way she does about the horde.

^this. and the funny part is pretty much every horde leader feels the same about the alliance. they just arent as overzealous about it. just because jaina isnt putting up with their shit anymore doesnt automatically make her crazy and corrupted. it makes her human. ANYONE would snap after all shes been through. and i dont just mean in MoP. i mean all the way back to WC3. theramore was just the final straw.

[7seti]

This whole comparison is honestly pretty repugnant. Also horribly incorrect.

Garrosh was the Warchief of the Horde. His war crimes were committed by the Horde military. Furthermore, no one in the Horde gave a shit about those crimes. The rest of the Horde only decided to rebel when Garrosh turned against them.

Jaina is angry at precisely the right political entity, the Horde. It's hilarious how mad it makes you guys that someone, anyone, evern a fictional person somewhere doesn't buy your precious dipshit "underdog hero" image. I have bad news for you, nobody but Horde fanboys ever bought that shit in the first place.

Right. That analogy would only work if the attack was ordered by a leader of a nation and carried out by its military.

I know I shouldn't expect logic from Trassk, but that's low even for him.

[Aquamonkey]

This whole comparison is honestly pretty repugnant. Also horribly incorrect.

Garrosh was the Warchief of the Horde. His war crimes were committed by the Horde military. Furthermore, no one in the Horde gave a shit about those crimes. The rest of the Horde only decided to rebel when Garrosh turned against them.

Jaina is angry at precisely the right political entity, the Horde. It's hilarious how mad it makes you guys that someone, anyone, evern a fictional person somewhere doesn't buy your precious dipshit "underdog hero" image. I have bad news for you, nobody but Horde fanboys ever bought that shit in the first place.

Except the people who objected to Garrosh's warmongering even prior to Theramore...

[Talen]

Dude, that's pretty much confirmed throughout MOP. Aethis is a traitor.

We don't know that.

I think he's actually innocent. What his suspicions were before, what he knew afterwards? Was his crime simply turning a blind eye?

I think there's more to the story there than we know; whether Blizzard follows up on it is another question. We still, for example, don't know the significance of the SI:7 badge to Garrosh.

EJL

[Littleraven]

She is insane when she blames the current Horde for what Garrosh' Horde did. That's blatant racism, she's just like her father now. She can't reason anymore, all she wants is revenge.

The Horde is to Jaina what the Lich King was to Sylvanas and what the Alliance was to Garrosh. If they are able to take out the threat once and for all, they will go back to a normal life, but if they can't do that they just spiral towards madness. Jaina is slowly going crazy, no wonder Khadgar will be the focal Mage in WoD and not Jaina.

by that logic the blood elves should have no reason to hate the alliance anymore. the alliance of WC3 is nowhere near the same alliance that exists now.

[Talen]

She is insane when she blames the current Horde for what Garrosh' Horde did. That's blatant racism, she's just like her father now. She can't reason anymore, all she wants is revenge.

They are as guilty as Garrosh is. Garrosh was able to do what he did because the Horde allowed him to do it. Because Thrall didn't step in. Because up until the moment Garrosh turned on the alliances Thrall had built up, the Horde was largely content to follow his orders.

As it is, the only thing Jaina has agitated for is the breakup of the Horde as a political and military entity. That's not insanity - that's actually a pretty reasonable request. In fact, if Varian wasn't hamstrung by the gameplay need to keep the Horde intact, the breakup of the Horde would be the least of his demands.

EJL

[DeeTwelve]

Right. That analogy would only work if the attack was ordered by a leader of a nation and carried out by its military.

I know I shouldn't expect logic from Trassk, but that's low even for him.

In his honor, I'm going to make a repugnant comparison of my own. Mine, however, will be more accurate.

It's 1941. The Nazis under Hitler are taking on the world, and so far they're winning. Western Europe has fallen and even the mighty Soviet Union is reeling under the German onslaught. Horrible war crimes are being committed left and right as the German army smashes through Eastern Europe. Murder of civilians and prisoners of war, torture, mutilation, rape, and organized genocide run rampant.

Then one day history takes a different course, and German scientists successfully develop the atomic bomb.

Hitler goes completely batshit and loses whatever grasp on reality he had before, declaring that only Berliners are True Germans. He resolves to kick everyone else out of his True Germany and win the war all on his own using the power of his new superweapon. The rest of the Germans naturally think this is bullshit, and decide to rebel against Hitler. A brutal civil war ensues, Berlin is sieged by the rest of Germany, and eventually Hitler is defeated.

The new German leader then picks up the phone and gets hold of the Allies.

GERMANY: Hey we killed Hitler, so we're cool now right?

ALLIES: Uh, how about no? You guys just invaded like fifteen different countries and killed a shitload of people.

G: No it was Hitler that did that, and he's dead now!

A: Well he didn't do it all by himself! What about the rest of you?!

G: We killed Hitler, we're heroes!

A: A few months ago you were setting people's grandmothers on fire just for fun! We're still mad!

G: Well Hitler told us to do that, and we killed him!

A: You only killed him AFTER you set the grandmothers on fire! And you didn't even kill him BECAUSE of that, you only turned on him when he started trying to kick YOU out of your own country! You are officially still assholes!

Trassk & Aquamonkey: Uh oh, I think the Allies might be corrupted or evil or something!

[Florena]

Except the people who objected to Garrosh's warmongering even prior to Theramore...

Yes, but what were they willing to DO about it before Garrosh started throwing away blood elf lives and tried to put the darkspear under martial law?

As for Jaina she's not crazy but I'm disappointed in her in DotA. I still like Jaina but part of me kind of hopes she gets ousted from the Council and Khadgar takes her place, though I doubt she's going to be replaced after they nuked theramore and killed Rhonin to put her in that position. I still like Jaina as a character but one way or another I hope the tensions between her and the Council get resolved.

[Aquamonkey]

snip

Trassk & Aquamonkey: Uh oh, I think the Allies might be corrupted or evil or something!

Just ignore that the Tauren just had a civil war and were under siege by the Alliance. Even Jaina understood that the Tauren couldn't just leave the Horde without leaving themselves completely exposed.

Just ignore that Vol'jin constantly objected to Garrosh's leadership choices, threatened to kill him, then moved all his people out of Orgrimmar in protest.

Just ignore that Garrosh used intimidation to keep the other races in line; threatening to kill those who voiced their objections. He even threatened to burn UC to the ground if they didn't go along with his orders.

[Florena]

Just ignore that the Tauren just had a civil war and were under siege by the Alliance. Even Jaina understood that the Tauren couldn't just leave the Horde without leaving themselves completely exposed.

Just ignore that Vol'jin constantly objected to Garrosh's leadership choices, threatened to kill him, then moved all his people out of Orgrimmar in protest.

Just ignore that Garrosh used intimidation to keep the other races in line; threatening to kill those who voiced their objections. He even threatened to burn UC to the ground if they didn't go along with his orders.

Good points, though on the topic of Vol'jin he threatened Garrosh...then proceeded to follow orders, even if he had an attitude, until he was almost assassinated. But from the perspective of an Alliance character it's perfectly reasonable to not feel sympathetic to the Horde after what happened, especially to those who lost a lot to Garrosh's war.

[7seti]

Just ignore that the Tauren just had a civil war and were under siege by the Alliance. Even Jaina understood that the Tauren couldn't just leave the Horde without leaving themselves completely exposed.

Exposed to whom? The only reason the Alliance were besieging them in the first place was because they were supporting the Horde.

Just ignore that Vol'jin constantly objected to Garrosh's leadership choices, threatened to kill him, then moved all his people out of Orgrimmar in protest.

Objected. Threatened. But actual actions carried out? Nope.

Just ignore that Garrosh used intimidation to keep the other races in line; threatening to kill those who voiced their objections. He even threatened to burn UC to the ground if they didn't go along with his orders.

With what army, we should ask. Garrosh can't do all this single-handedly. Unless he somehow pulled a hundred thousand Kor'kron out of his backside, we must conclude that a majority of the Horde was supporting him. Otherwise he could have been overpowered by those opposing him.

[Florena]

by that logic the blood elves should have no reason to hate the alliance anymore. the alliance of WC3 is nowhere near the same alliance that exists now.

Blood elf starting zone had a dwarf ambassador planning to sabotage something and night elf spies messing with stuff if I recall correctly, they had reason as of BC to not rejoin the Alliance, and the Purge of Dalaran and the ascension of Vol'jin to Warchief has left them with no reason to go back.

I agree that it's not unreasonable for Jaina to have the views she does now, but the blood elves most recent reason to hate the Alliance is still very much relevant.

[Aquamonkey]

With what army, we should ask. Garrosh can't do all this single-handedly. Unless he somehow pulled a hundred thousand Kor'kron out of his backside, we must conclude that a majority of the Horde was supporting him. Otherwise he could have been overpowered by those opposing him.

The army of orcs Garrosh had positioned outside the Greymane Wall.

[DeeTwelve]

Just ignore that the Tauren just had a civil war and were under siege by the Alliance. Even Jaina understood that the Tauren couldn't just leave the Horde without leaving themselves completely exposed.

Just ignore that Vol'jin constantly objected to Garrosh's leadership choices, threatened to kill him, then moved all his people out of Orgrimmar in protest.

Just ignore that Garrosh used intimidation to keep the other races in line; threatening to kill those who voiced their objections. He even threatened to burn UC to the ground if they didn't go along with his orders.

Internal griping devoid of action means nothing, and the rest of the Horde didn't take action against Garrosh until he turned on them.

Shit, Hitler had more opposition from his own people than Garrosh did from the rest of the Horde prior to his whole True Horde meltdown. At least Hitler's opponents actually tried to assassinate him, even without him trying to throw them out of their own country first.

[Eats Compost]

To make Jaina a villain would require making her ridiculously hypocritical. I've had enough of blatant hypocrisy from the characters already, especially the ones that the players are meant to root for.

If anything, Jaina should calm the hell down at this point to prove that it's possible to only be momentarily angry in the Warcraft universe.