Do you think Stance of the Gladiator will successfully allow prot to be viable dps?

[Deleted]

its isnt a PROT DPS spec, it just allows them todo more damage.

think Arena - Gladiator.

[Raugnaut]

its isnt a PROT DPS spec, it just allows them todo more damage.

think Arena - Gladiator.

Except, last time we heard from devs, the intention WAS for it to be a prot dps spec, on par with arms/fury. So...

[Hand Banana]

One thing that blizzard has said they do not want, and have moved away from, is any tank spec that can easily swap between tank-mode and dps-mode, and be viable at both. That's why they removed the DK trinity tank/dps specs, and that's why they seperated guardian and feral.

So, if it IS implemented, AND can dps just as well as arms/fury, it WILL replace defensive stance, OR make the warrior unable to use this and tank in the same fight.

I don't see the problem with it tbh, as long as the tanks dps isn't pure dps viable and they miss out on other tanking talents (both of the others suck atm but if they didnt...). Ferals and dks pretty much were given the ability to switch over, imagine missing out on a really good tanking talent just to have this decent increase switchover on demand. Makes it more of a difficult choice, which is a good thing.

I always thought they separated guardian from feral for pvp reasons though lol.

[Archimtiros]

the intention WAS for it to be a prot dps spec, on par with arms/fury. So...

You got the first part right. Nobody ever said it would be on par with arms/fury (aside from the hopefuls in this thread).

I maintain, its a talent to make you a little more useful, have fun, try shit out. Not turn you into the shield carrying dps class you always wished you'd be. Have to join the group of (real) Warlock tanks, Melee Hunters and Emerald Dream players for that one. Don't forget the shout spec healing Warrior.

[Raugnaut]

I don't see the problem with it tbh, as long as the tanks dps isn't pure dps viable and they miss out on other tanking talents (both of the others suck atm but if they didnt...). Ferals and dks pretty much were given the ability to switch over, imagine missing out on a really good tanking talent just to have this decent increase switchover on demand. Makes it more of a difficult choice, which is a good thing.

I always thought they separated guardian from feral for pvp reasons though lol.

While the PvP reasons were pretty powerful, ferals still can gain decent survivabilty by shifting into bear (increased armor, much larger health pool, FR healing, ect). It was stated many times that it was the PvE implications of it- a bear could tank for a bit, then shift into feral and do a tremendous amount of damage, then flawlessly swap back into tank with no penalty. Granted, with the talent setup, the druid wouldn't do as much damage as a pure-feral (~8% less) and would take more damage/generate less threat then a pure-bear (~12% increased magic damage taken, ~5% less damage done), but it was still enough that blizzard removed it utterly.

At Blizzcon, they stated that the expected goal for tank's dps output would be 75% of a dps's damage output. You also have to remember that by taking this talent, you would miss out on either blade barrier (for prot, it's essentially permanent period AoE damage, for what seems to be a decent amount), OR a burst AoE talent (ravager). If this talent made prot do, say, 90% of a dps's damage output, thats probably too close to the bear-kat model for blizzard's liking. If its not enough, you might as well have taken blade barrier.

Also remember that, the way you are stating it, a prot warrior with the talent could tank just as well as a prot without the talent, in terms of damage taken, and compare it to the bear-kat model. A bear-kat would take more damage then a full-bear, and deal less damage then a full-cat. If you take the same amount of damage as a non-glad warrior, just how much less damage would you have to do as an arms warrior for blizz to be happy?

So, once again, IF its implemented, it WILL fully replaced defensive stance if choosen. Any other way is far too close to the bear-kat model that blizzard stated they were unhappy with and will never do again.

- - - Updated - - -

You got the first part right. Nobody ever said it would be on par with arms/fury (aside from the hopefuls in this thread).

I maintain, its a talent to make you a little more useful, have fun, try shit out. Not turn you into the shield carrying dps class you always wished you'd be. Have to join the group of (real) Warlock tanks, Melee Hunters and Emerald Dream players for that one. Don't forget the shout spec healing Warrior.

Hrmm, yea, I guess I read too much into the "Turns prot into a dps spec, no longer a tank" tweet. But, we will see.

[Hand Banana]

So, once again, IF its implemented, it WILL fully replaced defensive stance if choosen. Any other way is far too close to the bear-kat model that blizzard stated they were unhappy with and will never do again.

I see what you are saying, but I am saying the bear/cat model sucked because they didnt have to drop anything for it. I am making assumptions that both blade barrier and axe throw thingy will change since they both are generic and suck. I am talking real tank talents for others; like improving banners or improving defensive cds or reducing damage. So you would be less viable as a pure tank with gladiator stance replacing battle but more viable to do damage on the fly. Non-extreme enough that a casual player could take either one and be fine.

However if we assume that neither of the other lvl 100 talents change or become pure tank necessary/beneficial then yea I can see why thats an issue. TBH I see all of our lvl100 talents drastically changing.

[Raugnaut]

I see what you are saying, but I am saying the bear/cat model sucked because they didnt have to drop anything for it. I am making assumptions that both blade barrier and axe throw thingy will change since they both are generic and suck. I am talking real tank talents for others; like improving banners or improving defensive cds or reducing damage. So you would be less viable as a pure tank with gladiator stance replacing battle but more viable to do damage on the fly. Non-extreme enough that a casual player could take either one and be fine.

However if we assume that neither of the other lvl 100 talents change or become pure tank necessary/beneficial then yea I can see why thats an issue. TBH I see all of our lvl100 talents drastically changing.

Besides the fact that I DID state that bear-kats dropped some stuff for it (8% damage compared to full-cat, 12% more magical damage taken compared to full bear), theres also the fact that Blade Barrier, for prots, is HUGE in terms of tanking. A constant AoE effect that pulses fairly rapidly? Any tank would DIE for something similar to that for anything with adds. Ravager seems to be a more powerful DnD, which is also useful for picking up adds, and can be very useful for trying to get a group of adds down fast (Sha of Pride heroic adds, for instance). Comparing them to the majority of talents from other specs, AND comparing them to what happened with the original MoP talents, Blade Barrier/Ravager will probably make it to beta without major changes. Glad stance though? I'll eat all my hats if it isn't changed, and I wouldn't be surprised if its removed entirely.

So yea. Blade Barrier/Ravager=great lvl 100 talents for tanks and similar to other talents for other specs. Glad talent = controversial, may remain in some form, most likely to be removed.

Granted, looking at a few other talents (Seal of Faith, Mind-spike spam rotation, petless hunter), glad talent does fit in there, but the changes are significantly larger then those. Off-healing/attonement (seal of faith), rotation style change (mind-spike spam), playstyle change (petless hunter), role change (Glad warrior)

[Archimtiros]

Already been said that Seal of Faith likely wont make it. Been discussed a lot and it seems a lot of people don't like/aren't interested in it.

[Raugnaut]

Already been said that Seal of Faith likely wont make it. Been discussed a lot and it seems a lot of people don't like/aren't interested in it.

Hrmm, allright. I don't really follow paladin stuff that closely.

[Skiboy]

Doesn't make any sense to have prot as a dps spec... not only would that interfere with PvP and cause more balancing, but then other tanks would complain and would want a dps/tank spec. Tanks should always be tanks and nothing else... last time they weren't, was in Wotlk when tanks in PvP were out of control. I played a prot warrior and i'd get 20k shield slams... it was pretty ridiculous. With a crap ton of armor and resil, that makes tanks pretty damn hard to kill and if you add a lot of dmg to that, it makes it unfair.

Well good thing they made resil baseline, and the talent removes the massive damage reductions tanks have in exchange for damage output... Almost like a trade off or something.
It makes plenty of sense to try out new things at this point. If a Sword and Board DPS set up was popular and worked well for warriors they could EASILY translate it into giving paladins one. We already have elemental as a caster DPS spec with a shield why not add a melee one. Warriors just happen to be the most logical place to try something like this out.

Archimtiros, is correct to be skeptical and not expect a single talent to literally give us a full fledged 4th spec. That doesn't mean it can't and won't happen in some other way, it is a popular idea and easily adds some flavor.

I'd also like to point out that with their stated goals of dps not scaling with vengeance and tank's being at 75% of DPS specs we will see a decent increase in tank damage in pvp.

[Somaldelhar]

i get why they made it so it would replace defensive stance, if they didn't, they'd make tanks OP. but instead of a stance change, they just made it so that in arms you can use sword and board, much like DKs can switch between 1 and 2 handed weapons? last i checked the DPS for the 2 was approximately equal to an almost negligible level. so instead of a prot based talent, make it one that allows a shield to be used in arms reliably for DPS. would that work without destroying balance to badly? i realize it would take away the "DPS tank" sorta role of it, but it would set arms and fury apart more then they are right now, perhaps give arms a reliable shield based ability. i think making arms and fury more unique would be much more interesting then trying to make the 1 unique spec in a warrior even more so. and yes, i will admit there are some key differences between arms and fury warriors. but from the point of view of someone choosing between the 2, it ultimately comes down to one 2-hander or 2 of em.

i know i'm wording this terribly, but in essence i wanna say that i think arms should get this instead, as a play style/ rotation changer, to further set it apart from fury, rather than make this issue about whether prot should be able to DPS.

[Raugnaut]

i get why they made it so it would replace defensive stance, if they didn't, they'd make tanks OP. but instead of a stance change, they just made it so that in arms you can use sword and board, much like DKs can switch between 1 and 2 handed weapons? last i checked the DPS for the 2 was approximately equal to an almost negligible level. so instead of a prot based talent, make it one that allows a shield to be used in arms reliably for DPS. would that work without destroying balance to badly? i realize it would take away the "DPS tank" sorta role of it, but it would set arms and fury apart more then they are right now, perhaps give arms a reliable shield based ability. i think making arms and fury more unique would be much more interesting then trying to make the 1 unique spec in a warrior even more so. and yes, i will admit there are some key differences between arms and fury warriors. but from the point of view of someone choosing between the 2, it ultimately comes down to one 2-hander or 2 of em.

i know i'm wording this terribly, but in essence i wanna say that i think arms should get this instead, as a play style/ rotation changer, to further set it apart from fury, rather than make this issue about whether prot should be able to DPS.

IMO, 2 handers suits arms to a T. I would NOT like a sword/board arms. I don't think it would feel right.

[Deleted]

It does not. Nor does it have the Crit suppression or reduced damage taken.

Raugnaut; I wouldn't pay attention to the numbers to much right now, you and I both know things are going to change a lot between now and then, including the +% damage buffs.
There is no way they would make Prot better than pure DPS specs, just imagine the outrage that would occur.

Yeah. Such an Outrage. No way there could be a second Playstyle to Prot. HA! They could even change it so 2 1h are viable and usable again! ... oh wait.
Honestly. The already mentioned they aren't aiming at a whole fucking lot of Class changes. And I'd actually see them do it.

Edit: Like the Idea with the Gladiator Stance in Arms Specc. Would totally like it.

[Somaldelhar]

IMO, 2 handers suits arms to a T. I would NOT like a sword/board arms. I don't think it would feel right.

well, thats why i said to make it an option, much like DK 1 and 2 handers. the reason i said arms is because the name would imply mastery over all arms, and that category includes shields, but it never so much felt like that. all that aside though, it is an optional talent. thats what you need to keep in mind. your playstyle would most likely be un-changed if you decide to go for the 2 hander instead. i just thought that if it was optional like DK's, then arms warriors would seem like a more interesting spec.

[Mancowski]

Nope, it will be there for questing, just past annoying and becoming a threat in pvp and when your group over gears 5mans.

[Jackielope]

Nope, it will be there for questing, just past annoying and becoming a threat in pvp and when your group over gears 5mans.

A level 100 talent just for questing and PvP annoyance? I don't buy it. Blizz will have to make it more useful than that, or not make it at all.

well, thats why i said to make it an option, much like DK 1 and 2 handers. the reason i said arms is because the name would imply mastery over all arms, and that category includes shields, but it never so much felt like that. all that aside though, it is an optional talent. thats what you need to keep in mind. your playstyle would most likely be un-changed if you decide to go for the 2 hander instead. i just thought that if it was optional like DK's, then arms warriors would seem like a more interesting spec.

It might work with arms, but then they'd need to give shield-specific stuff to arms as well which could cause problems.

[Archimtiros]

A level 100 talent just for questing and PvP annoyance? I don't buy it. Blizz will have to make it more useful than that, or not make it at all.

I wish it worked like that, sadly there are many talents (including our own tree) which are barely useful, or situationally useful at best.

It might work with arms, but then they'd need to give shield-specific stuff to arms as well which could cause problems.

I can't imagine a Sword and Board spec going to Arms. Unlike a lot of games which give you every option under the sun, they keep a fair amount of logic involved in WoW (a statement which will make many people lul I'm sure). But this is why we don't have true Shaman tanks, even though they have Rockbiter, or why we saw them strive so hard to remove Enhancement Shamans gearing Spellpower. It's why the Warlock tank idea was heavily nerfed, and we don't have a shout-healing spec.

A shield dps spec simply doesn't make sense the way a Frost DK being able to use 2hrs or DW; regardless of how much some people would likely see it.
Secondly, and on that topic, Arms using Shields doesn't make a whole lot of sense, atleast to me. I feel like they would have to add at least a couple shield specific spells, and that would only diminish the spec, and make people clamour for a true fourth spec.
By contrast, Frost DK's keep the exact same toolkit regardless of DW or 2hr. A few spell priorities change due to passive effects but thats it.

I don't mean to shit on peoples hopes and dreams; but I feel like people are getting way too ahead of themselves and letting their imaginations run wild, getting their hopes up. They said it best at Blizzcon, they are not looking to revamp or make sweeping changes; which is why we are not (yet) getting completely new spells while leveling, and no overhauls like we have seen with every expansion previously. With that in mind, it is unrealistic to expect too much from this talent.

[Raugnaut]

I wish it worked like that, sadly there are many talents (including our own tree) which are barely useful, or situationally useful at best.

While there are some talents like that, thats a far cry from many talents. All of the warrior talents are useful in some form or another.

[Archimtiros]

While there are some talents like that, thats a far cry from many talents. All of the warrior talents are useful in some form or another.

Really? Juggernaut is barely used, next to Double Time, and Warbringer only in PVP. But I can accept that.

Staggering Shout is worthless. I can't believe anyone thought this was a good talent. Aside from some use from doubling up with another classes slow; its an AoE snare, and the only AoE slow we have is on the same tier. Now sure Bloodbath would work in theory, but oh wait, it's dot dmg breaks the snare!
Safeguard is only really used for breaking snares and Mass Spell Reflect is either brokenly OP or completely worthless (in PVE, granted it has some PVP use).
Avatar has been garbage since the +rage componant was removed. I know some people consider it for burst PVP, but many consider Storm Bolts stun a much better option. It has been completely worthless in PVE since day 1.

Other classes have it just as bad/worse.

Now I am not saying the talents are complete garbage, just saying the system could be made better. Having a few talent options that are only useful in PVP, doesn't make them options. Likewise it cuts the PVE options down to 2 or even 1. Good system, not as good execution. I do like that they have been tweaking them in recent patches though.

[Hand Banana]

Staggering Shout is worthless. I can't believe anyone thought this was a good talent. Aside from some use from doubling up with another classes slow; its an AoE snare, and the only AoE slow we have is on the same tier. Now sure Bloodbath would work in theory, but oh wait, it's dot dmg breaks the snare!
Safeguard is only really used for breaking snares and Mass Spell Reflect is either brokenly OP or completely worthless (in PVE, granted it has some PVP use).
Avatar has been garbage since the +rage componant was removed. I know some people consider it for burst PVP, but many consider Storm Bolts stun a much better option. It has been completely worthless in PVE since day 1.

Other classes have it just as bad/worse.

Now I am not saying the talents are complete garbage, just saying the system could be made better. Having a few talent options that are only useful in PVP, doesn't make them options. Likewise it cuts the PVE options down to 2 or even 1. Good system, not as good execution. I do like that they have been tweaking them in recent patches though.

Honestly I don't know how they haven't figured it out yet, but all they need to do is make talents with pve in mind then stick pvp exceptions on them. Staggering shout now roots without the slow requirement, but requires a slow if the target is a player. Also reduces the cooldown by 15 seconds if it strikes a non-player target. Suddenly fine for both environments. All talents on all tiers could be useful in pve and pvp if they just stopped being lazy with separating them like they did for storm bolt.