[Fury] Ideas for WoD - Warning: Long Post.

[Fatalfuror]

Disclaimer: I realize that this is largely pointless since virtually nothing substantial is known about the significance of class changes in WoD, however, I've nothing better to do at the moment and igniting the fire of creative brainstorming within the WoW community may help us down the road. Or not.

Going to hit a few specific things that I feel need to be addressed one way or another in WoD before they're repeated again (or worse).

Particularly concerning in WoD is the removal of reforging. For a class so entirely dependent on crit to simply "feel right", Fury is going to suffer considerably at the early stages of the game and possibly much later into raiding as well due to the inability to convert even a small portion of stats into crit. If the gear isn't itemized to our liking, we will be SoL. It is my contention that Reforging needs to stay in WoD, and that we (as well as some other classes) need to agitate towards this goal. I have zero faith in Blizzard's ability to truly balance stats across all classes/specs, so not being able to reforge away less desirable stats is simply wrong at this point. It's throwing the baby out with the bath water (when they decided to nix hit/expertise, which were the real culprits to the annoyance of reforging).

To me, there's nothing at all positive about their desire to eliminate reforging. They have, again, proven completely incapable of properly balancing classes and stats, or designing gear that makes everyone happy. To then give them benefit of the doubt for WoD and remove a huge amount of the control we have over gear, and then on top of that to add even more RNG by introducing tertiary stats, is unacceptable.

I want control over my play. I want control over my gear. I do not want the game watered down by adding layer upon layer of RNG without anything there to rectify the randomness when it inevitably strips the player of anything they could call "accomplishment" or "competition". Such design intent is a sign of laziness. A game can, in fact, be made to be amazing without RNG. It simply requires effort and creativity. Adding RNG does not.

Now, onto the actual ideas:

1. Raging Blow and Bloodthirst

Problem: Being entirely dependent on RNG procs has severely limited Fury in terms of desirable stats, not to mention the early/lower item level flow of the spec. We are still the only spec whose defining ability is walled off by RNG. I do not consider this a good thing, and neither should anyone else. Without Raging Blow, does Fury really feel anything like Fury? Of course not. And as stated above, without Reforging our choice of gear could be completely abysmal. We could be seeing crit rates of less than 20% in pre-tier gear in WoD, which will serve only to infuriate and frustrate our ability to play the spec.

But my biggest gripe with this RNG nonsense is not that it exists. It's that it is a negative relationship with the player. You are not rewarded for good RNG - you do not top meters, you do not absolutely destroy other classes in DPS when the stars align, and the class still plays clunky regardless. If RNG is to be prevalent, it MUST be something positive. The player needs to feel rewarded, not punished. Nobody feels rewarded with the way Fury currently plays. It is only a sigh of relief when BT happens to crit, and when it does not several times in a row, it only feels like you're being punished. Punished for what, though? Did you play wrong? Nope. Did you smack Ghostcrawler's mother? No. So then why does it have to feel so punishing when the gods aren't in our favor? Is that not a detriment to the class, to the fun/enjoyment of the game?

Poor RNG should never have an effect so profound, so pronounced, as absolutely tanking our DPS (which it does). Good RNG, on the other hand, shouldn't simply throw us into "middling" - but into the stratosphere. And one way to accomplish that is to have proper controls on the lower spectrum of RNG, eliminating that absurd bottom, while pushing us ever more towards situations that reward us when everything's pumping on all cylinders.

To that end, I suggest this for RB and BT:

A. If your Character Crit is less than 30%, BT crit-rate should be pegged at a hard 60%. If above 30%, the 2x BT Crit bonus should take over.

This means if you had 20% Character Crit, your BT would crit 60% of the time. If you had 40% Character Crit, BT would crit 80% of the time. It's very simple to program.

B. On top of this, RB should have a charge-based system stacking to 2, with an innate 6-second CD with no stacks.

This means if you didn't get an Enrage proc, you can still use RB every 6 seconds. Every time you get Enraged, an RB charge is generated and the CD is instantly reset. Any time you have a charge, there is no CD. When you get back to zero charges, the next initiation incurs a 6-second CD.

It is identical to the way it plays now, except it fixes the shortfalls of having less crit, and evens out the bad RNG. This way you are never "locked out" of RB.

In programming, it can all be summed up like this:

If CharCrit < 30%, BT-Crit = 60%, ELSE
BT-Crit = 2x CharCrit.

If RB-Stack = 0, then RB-CD = 6 seconds, ELSE
RB-CD = 0 seconds.

2. Haste

It sucks. We all know it. Lots of people have suggested ways of improving it, but I am yet unconvinced that anything other than some sweeping changes will rectify the reason why Haste sucks for Fury (especially in comparison to the bloated Critical Hit in regards to our mechanics).

Proposed Solution: New Passive Ability - Crushing Blows. Learned at Level 30. For each % of Haste, your special attacks gain an equivalent % chance to produce Crushing Blows, dealing 1.25x Normal Damage and causing the target to bleed for [some appropriate value based on AP] over 8 seconds. Attacks cannot Crushing Blow and Critical Strike at the same time. In addition, Bloodthirst and Colossus Smash crushing blows will proc Enrage.

Behind the idea: Basically, I've wanted Warriors, the heaviest-hitting physical damage class in the game, to deal Crushing Blows like bosses for a long time. What better way to help fix a problem and also throw in some decent flavor into the game? Essentially, it revolves around the idea that Haste increases the Velocity of our special attacks, occasionally causing them to hit far harder than usual, producing a Crushing Blow. It is intuitive, and would require very little in terms of coding to introduce into the game, since bosses have had CBs for a long, long time.

This would boost Haste significantly in comparison to Crit. I suppose the one criticism for this is that it basically becomes "crit-lite", but it's a start at the very least that should help bridge the gap between the two stats. The other thing is that all Warrior specs should have this available to them - since all suffer similarly in terms of hating Haste. The bleed effect will help "level out" some of the damage so we aren't too bursty.

If we take the changes to everything so far, we have:

A reduction to the value of Critical Hit.
A boost to the value of Haste.
A small boost to the value of Strength (due to Crushing Blow bleed AP-scaling).
A reduction in the importance of relying on RNG to influence outcomes.

3. Flurry

Here's an ability nobody even cares about. It's just there. Completely passive, dependent on nothing. You can't feel it active when you play, and there's no point in tracking it. It's boring. It needs reworked.

Proposed Rework: Flurry. 1 Minute Cooldown. For the next 10 seconds, you gain an additional 30% chance to Multistrike.

Why: Fury is definitely lacking in terms of low-CD buffs. Why not start peppering in some of the new stats that will be appearing on items in WoD while we're at it? It remains to be seen how powerful Multistrike will be for us (since we never got a trinket for it in SoO), but I think it could at the very least be interesting. It'll be hard to compete with Crit and Amplify, though.

4. Wild Strike

What a waste of an otherwise decent concept this one was. Right now, it's lucky to do 3% of my total damage in Heroic SoO. That's abysmal. It's practically worthless, and its proc to throw on charges/drop the GCD just makes the whole thing feel clunky and disjointed. In short, it also needs an overhaul if it wants to be competitive with virtually anything else in our arsenal.

Proposed Rework: Wild Strikes. 15 second cooldown (off the GCD). 5 second duration. Costs 10 Rage per Second. Every second for the next 5 seconds, you wildly strike everything in front of you up to 5 yards away for X% Weapon Damage + AP. You may continue to use all other abilities during this time.

Reason behind this: I think we could use another off-the-GCD rage-spender. A way beyond Heroic Strike to manage rage when we have too much and nowhere else to put it. It would require smart play to utilize properly, because though it could be initiated well below the 50 rage required for the full duration, there's no guarantee that if you do you won't simply rage-starve yourself and kill your DPS. However, done properly and because it's off-the-GCD plus you're able to continue attacking normally, this is something we would be able to utilize for max-DPS in high level gear. Something to look forward to when our gear starts to get absurd, probably less use early on.

Regarding BT's current Wild Strikes proc: this could be changed to reduce the cost per second by 50%, or 5 rage per second. Which would make it far more useful early on.

How it functions: Like Flurry of Xuen. Cleave everything in front of you, in this case up to 5 yards away. I think the same kind of graphic would also be appropriate. Very Furious Berserker-ish.

5. Cleave

Just remove it for Fury. Nobody uses it, and I don't think it's worth wasting time to redesign. Reduce some button bloat and put something else interesting in. Or just reduce bloat.

6. Heroic Throw

What exactly is the point of this now that it does pitiful damage and can't be used as a ranged interrupt as it once was? Warriors desperately need some kind of baseline ranged attack that can deal decent damage, but this in its current incarnation does (almost) nothing for us.

Proposed Redesign:

Heroic Throw. 25 Rage. 30-second Cooldown. 30-yard Range. You throw your weapons at your current target, hitting all enemies caught in the path, dealing X% weapon damage. During the flight time you are temporarily disarmed (Max 3 seconds). This opens up a new ability that immediately replaces Heroic Throw on the bar:

Chains of Rage. One Charge. No Cost. Activating this ability yanks your weapons forcefully back to you, dealing damage again on the return to all targets caught in the path. Enemies that take both the throw and return damage are Hamstrung for 8 seconds, becoming slowed by 50%. This also "re-arms" you. (After using this, Heroic Throw replaces Chains of Rage).

Now, suddenly, we have something interesting. Something useful. A potential ranged slow (not exactly easy to pull off - some skill required), and something that hits fairly hard. There is an opportunity cost, as well, in that you are disarmed for the duration of the flight time. An ability like this promotes smart decision-making, active thought while playing - moreover, it, again, is suitably themed for a Fury Warrior (or any warrior, really). The idea behind the second ability is simply that your weapons are already attached to you by chains - you simply pull them back when you want to.

------

For now I'm going to end this already way-too-long post with a few more suggestions that I'm not going to spend as much time fleshing out (for now), as I've hit on a lot of what I wanted.

But first, a brief "overview" of what I hope to accomplish:

Less dependence on Critical Hit.
Boost to Haste.
Weakened effect of RNG on spec outcomes.
More interesting/thoughtful abilities.
Weak/forgotten abilities retuned/reworked.
More control, not more RNG.

I think if they went in a direction similar to what I'm proposing, all of that would be accomplished. However, knowing next-to-nothing so far, there's no telling what will happen. Maybe they'll barely even look at us.

Further things to consider:

1. Looking at Talents. Some abilities seem out of place, and I'd love to see Storm Bolt made baseline with something like the old, old Deadly Calm put in its place to solidify that as a "CD Buff" tier.

2. Reducing GCD to 1.0 seconds. It would further differentiate Fury from its "sister" specs, and make us feel more frenetic. Would require a lot of re-tuning, however.

3. Reworking Enrage and Mastery. I still think it'd be worth exploring a secondary resource based on these, as right now it's very bland/uninteresting. You either are or aren't Enraged, and the only active thing you can do to control this is using Berserker's Rage. Again, not much there.

Oh, almost forgot: BOSSES SHOULD NOT PARRY FROM IN FRONT. AT ALL. Give melee a boost to damage from hitting the backside if you want us there, but these constant negative approaches to encouraging certain behaviors is just laughably stupid. Removing Frontal Boss Parry should've been done a long time ago.. why they're sticking with it, I'll never know. There is zero legitimate reason to not fix this.

Finally: if you read through the entire thing, you're a trooper. Even if you didn't, I'd enjoy feedback and further brainstorming to see where we can help take Fury to in WoD. Fatalfuror Out.

[Archimtiros]

Not every ability needs to be amazing. There is nothing wrong with Heroic Throw. Its a minor damage filler, ranged pull (and occasional final hit). I wouldn't mind the CD being shorter, or maybe an added bonus, like interrupt or snare, but it doesn't need complicated mechanics. I think Wild Strike sucks, but we also don't need another off the GCD ability.

Your ideas are far too grandiose to actually go anywhere. The rotation is fairly solid, where would you use half these abilities in it?
Fury is about the best its ever been, sure its got a few flaws, but it doesn't need an overhaul. We don't need a secondary resource, we have an artificial one in our Raging Blow mechanic. Only class that really needs any kind of resource overhaul is Shamans.

Parry is being reduced down to I think 2.5% or something. There's no real problem with bosses parrying from the front but stationary bosses (tortos, ragnaros) should not. Most of them don't these days anyways. Only issue is that they can parry while turning to cast/use abilities, which has been recognized already (and I spoke with the lead encounter designer specifically regarding).
Reducing our GCD to 1 sec would completely destroy our mechanics (CS); it would require major re-works that we simply don't need. We are "spammy" enough, having abilities off the GCD, which many classes do not anymore, because they have the 1s GCD.

Only thing we really need is some kind of Crit protection and bringing stats in line with eachother, both of which can be accomplished very easily without requiring new, overly complicated abilities to make them work.

[Fatalfuror]

Not every ability needs to be amazing.

You're right. Fortunately, I only covered about 5 actual abilities needing any significant rework. So, your point is? Or is the method du jour of poo-poo'ing on another person's ideas to slip in strawman arguments?

There is nothing wrong with Heroic Throw.

That's your opinion. In terms of usefulness, and what it could be, however, there is room for significant improvement. I'm not the type of person that revels in stagnation and complacency. Maybe you are. And for that reason, we'll never agree. So why did you respond, when you probably already knew this? For my amusement?

I wouldn't mind the CD being shorter, or maybe an added bonus, like interrupt or snare, but it doesn't need complicated mechanics.

I'll have to disagree here. Warriors are too straight-forward. We have nothing complex to deal with, and most of our abilities are simply "press this to do a melee hit". You don't think for one moment that there's room to expand a little on the concept of what being a Warrior means in this game? I want the spec, and the class as a whole, to be awesome/interesting. And that often requires a little effort put forth into the design. If you believe that things are perfect as is, then by all means, argue for nothing substantial to change. Just don't expect me to care about your opinion.

I think Wild Strike sucks, but we also don't need another off the GCD ability.

Because two is clearly too many? The idea revolves more about rage management than it does being off the GCD anyway.

Your ideas are far too grandiose to actually go anywhere.

I don't see what's so grandiose about any of it. Most of it is fairly benign in terms of what a player will encounter (being that a lot of it is passive updates). Wild Strikes is about rage management, and my proposed redesign of Heroic Throw is about timing/control. In terms of complicated, both of these are similar to things already in the game. Calling my suggestions "Grandiose" is a pure exaggeration, or hyperbole.

The rotation is fairly solid, where would you use half these abilities in it?

I thought you were among the contingent of Warriors claiming that we used a priority system?

Moreover, what actual new active abilities am I proposing? Hint: the only one that would change anything is Heroic Throw (new Flurry, as a damage CD, would of course be off the GCD like all the others). FYI, our rotation was also solid before we started using Storm Bolt every C-Smash. But we somehow managed to make it fit. Acting like you have an actual argument here is rather amusing.

A sufficiently powerful/useful ability will find itself as part of a new "rotation" regardless of how full a previous rotation happens to be. That's simply a fact of MMOs. Change happens, deal with it.

Fury is about the best its ever been, sure its got a few flaws, but it doesn't need an overhaul.

Again, your opinion here. I feel differently. I'm not happy with "okay" or "fine". I'm not happy with "better than it was back then". Because, quite frankly, your argument is based in a logical fallacy. I want something better, and I believe that with a little effort it can be done. Progress. You don't get there by being complacent.

We don't need a secondary resource, we have an artificial one in our Raging Blow mechanic.

Either it's a resource or it's not. Personally, I don't think it is. "Artificial". Don't make me giggle. I guess everyone who has procs has a resource now?

Parry is being reduced down to I think 2.5% or something. There's no real problem with bosses parrying from the front but stationary bosses (tortos, ragnaros) should not. Most of them don't these days anyways. Only issue is that they can parry while turning to cast/use abilities, which has been recognized already (and I spoke with the lead encounter designer specifically regarding).

There is a real problem.
A) Ranged don't deal with anything similar.
B) An "unlucky" parry can significantly effect certain specs' DPS. We've all raged about parried CSmash before.
C) It's negative encouragement, not positive encouragement, which just feels like an arbitrary punishment for no good reason.
D) Standing behind the boss can be positively encouraged by simply adding a damage buff and removing the parry. This ensures that all classes are treated equitably.
E) Boss encounter design is hampered by having to compensate for frontal parry or consider it during design. Removing it will allow for less headaches and perhaps expanded ability design.

Saying there's "nothing wrong with it" is just plain incorrect from any objective viewpoint.

Reducing our GCD to 1 sec would completely destroy our mechanics (CS); it would require major re-works that we simply don't need.

I assure you, the sky would not fall. Rebalancing would need to occur, but destroying our mechanics? Nothing we have relies upon GCD. It's all a damage function. Please, quit the hyperbole for two seconds and think rationally.

We are "spammy" enough, having abilities off the GCD, which many classes do not anymore, because they have the 1s GCD.

We are only spammy because ilvl inflated to absurd levels. There's a good chance that will happen again, but there's also a chance it won't since they said they were trying to reign that in for WoD. And with RNG factored in, there are still times where we have empty GCDs. Anyway, the GCD thing isn't even a main point. It was a side concern.

Only thing we really need is some kind of Crit protection and bringing stats in line with eachother, both of which can be accomplished very easily without requiring new, overly complicated abilities to make them work.

I'm still confused on what "overly complicated" means to you. Nothing I wrote could possibly be deemed "overly complicated". It's not like the ability suggestions require that you do calculus while you play. But, hey, maybe it's too hard for you to deal with a little extra rage management or an ability that hits beyond 5 yards. Everyone has flaws, you know.

[Archimtiros]

Yeah I'm not going to draw out a long winded argument like you just did; everything you said basically boils down to "nu uh!"

This game isn't designed to be very complicated. Which is why most classes have one, maybe two "complex" systems of dps. For Warriors its the CS debuff.

I will elaborate on Parry: It is there to herd melee into a central area. They have specifically stated that they like the idea of Tanks in front, Melee behind, Ranged spread out around. Why does it need to be changed? I will agree, CS parry is a bit too punishing (should not go on CD, similar to Pally TV), but that is a separate issue.
They have hit on boss encounter design a few times. One they are removing positional requirements (backstab) and two most bosses that are stationary can't parry anymore.

We have been spammy since almost inception, having any off the GCD abilities will do that. Even without our high ilvl, we are spammy during our CS debuff.

Lastly; don't try to be insulting because you don't like what I have to say, after asking for feedback. I put some realism into your grand ideas. You act like the spec is full of issues and desperately needs correction, or needs new ideas to stay fresh.
The problem is all your ideas revolve around new ideas, and new things to track. And while that may not seem complicated to you, this game is not aimed towards the expert players, it revolves around things the average player can pickup and run with. That's where "overly complicated" comes from. Warriors have more button bloat than most classes, and the devs have already talked about nerfing every spec down to one CD. Why would we add another? Why do we need a Haste version of Crit in "crushing blows"?

1 sec GCD has been thrown around a dozen times on this forum. It simply doesn't work, doesn't increase dps, and doesn't do anything for us, and screws up CS. The only way it plays out is if BT CD is reduced along with it.

Your ideas, frankly suck, but I am not going to sit here and bash on them; because you will just accuse me again of being "hyperbolic" or just "bad" when you run out of other insults to throw around. If this were Diablo 3, you might be onto something, but overload of mechanics simply isn't what WoW aims for. They are aiming to remove button bloat, not add it and our class is one of the worst in that regard.

Also, I love how you spent your time not defending your ideas and why they would be good, but instead just trying to call out my assertions, and attacking me over saying how unnecessary your proposed ideas are.

I think this line sums up your entire thread:

I'm not happy with "okay" or "fine". I'm not happy with "better than it was back then". I want something better, and I believe that with a little effort it can be done. Progress. You don't get there by being complacent.

You want change simply for the sake of it, which has never been a good argument in this game. The devs want stability, not constant change (and it has been stated a few times that change of class mechanics make more people quit than any amount of time between patches or "bad" content).

Fact is; we aren't in a bad place, quite the opposite really, so we have no need for your supposed progress.

[Juni]

I started reading this thread with great hope, and I was kind of impressed by your creativity, though I think some of your ideas are a bit meh.

Wild strike will simply be something you keep up when u get x rage, making it uninteresting rather quickly after the initial "omg new button" excitement settles. There's nothing wrong with spamming HS to dump rage and this mechanic will simply take it's place. Yes, it would be a good idea for aoe seeing as WW + RB (if you happen to not use BS) is clunky and doesn't really feel welcome in our somewhat fluid rotation. Your idea might sound cool to some, but to me it just sounds like ragedump you press once rather than pressing 2-3 HS.

Flurry just sounds really pointless to me and will just add to button bloat. Let's say multistrike ends up being TERRIBLE for us. Then what..? Then we'll just have another button that's meaningless and unused.

However, there are 2 things that I somewhat agree with, haste needs to be better in WoD and Heroic Throw is just bad for most situations.

Regardless, I think your replies to what Archimtiros said is just straight up disrespectful to someone who contributes greatly to the warrior community and you just seem childish when you argue with him personally rather than his points.

We simply don't need a lot of new fancy mechanics going into WoD, we have a fluid rotation, our dmg output in both single target and aoe are both well above average and therefore I'm going to wait for beta to see where Blizz wants to take us before I start suggesting specific changes

[bigbad]

I wouldn't mind BT having a 250-300% chance to crit instead of the double chance it has now, but it would make crit gear pretty mandatory. Assuming something like 20% crit in the first Tier of raiding the current mechanics just leave too many open gcds. Would either need a better or more interesting filler or more RB procs. But besides that fury doesn't really need any changes imo.

[Neromius]

After taking the time to read all the posts thus far... /breath. Ok.

So in regards to your ideas first: Raging Blow and BT Unfortunately low crit levels come along with low level gear, especially true as a player is leveling up and just starting each tier. It's just part of how we balance in the bigger picture with crit being ridiculously easy to come by at the end of each tier. Again, another mainstay of fury gameplay mechanics has been RNG, which you clearly acknowledge, but for you (I assume) when procs line up, you don't see much of an increase in dps. Now I don't know why things are playing out that way for your gear level, but from where I am in the game (about 10 ilvl lower than you) my dps swing has been as drastic as 70k dps gain coming from absolutely zero procs to procs spilling out of my ass. Not sure why you're seeing less gains than I am here.

For haste you seem to want change simply because your least beneficial stat exists. Unfortunately everyone has a least beneficial stat and that's always how it will be. Changing haste just because it's not exciting or of significant importance is not a good reason to change it. As far as Flurry is concerned, now I do agree that it feels very unimportant to the point of not being noticeably helpful at all. As for that, we should be less concerned with adding more to make it attractive, and simply bake that dps in to another ability, possibly Heroic Throw or Wild Strike which you have particular interest in.

Wild Strike, unfortunately is just something I disagree with you on. I like it. It's there when I need to dump rage and HS is on CD, yet allows me to pump out just a bit more dps inside of a CD proc or CS window. Cleave however, I do agree with you on and your suggestion that it be removed to get rid of ability bloat, but I know arms and prot still like it very much so it would appear to have to stay for now.

Heroic Throw Sweet baby Jesus I like your suggestion here. Nothing else to add to that haha.

PS, as Juni and Archimtiros have both said/alluded to though, it's disrespectful to attack a person and not their ideas. It also makes you sound weak-minded. I do appreciate you putting for a suggestion for each area you are unhappy with, which is more than can be said for many players who are unhappy with something in game, however if someone is rebutting your ideas, try to defend your ideas instead of resorting to personal attacks and coming across as smug. It's a good way to get someone to ignore anything worthwhile you may have said.

[Tzel]

The only reason I care about reforging being eliminated is due to how disparate our stats are in terms of effect. In top end gear, the weight of crit is 3-4x that of haste. If, for some reason, we are super unlucky and only get non-tier pieces with haste on them, we can at least recoup some of that nowadays.

My concern is that if they fail to bring all our secondary stats (including the new ones) within reasonable distance of each other, that they will have to re-balance our class - and all others effected - every tier. The buff/nerf cycle to Arms and Fury in Cataclysm was annoying at best, and in the final raid tier Arms was propped up by mastery and an incredibly OP Gurthalak. I don't want to have to have all our abilities buffed one tier, because all the non-tier pieces are poorly itemized for us, only to be nerfed the next when everything has crit on it, then brought back up again, and round and round.

[FobManX]

I like the idea of wanting to make us less reliant on RNG, and agree with your statement that good RNG should feel like a reward. In early gear stages good RNG is needed just to be viable, and bad RNG cripples you. That's not fun. Now with gear, the RNG isn't really an issue anymore, but as it stands now when the expansion hits everything starts over anyway. I don't know about your BT 30% stuff, I think what I'd do is make it so BT hits always grant one stack of RB, while BT crits grant two, and let RB stack to 3 or something like that.

Haste...sounds good I guess, I don't know as long as there is something that makes Haste not suck so much I'm fine with it.

I like Flurry just fine. Every class has some passive boosts that you don't really worry about. I don't want another CD to manage, and I don't think abilities that grant tertiary stats would work since there are no guarantees of us getting those stats since they'll be randomized on gear.

I'm fine with Wild Strike, again my issue with your proposed new WS is that it's just another CD to manage and 10 rage per second sounds excessive. Right now it's basically used when procced to conserve rage when CS is on CD which works well with the whole conserve rage till CS then burn playstyle that Fury is.

I'd rather they buff Cleave or find a way to make it useful(synergize it with Meat Cleaver somehow). Cleave is just so iconic with Warriors, I'd hate to just get rid of it.

I don't care too much about Heroic Throw, but it'd be cool if they made it like Hunter's Glaive Toss and have it hit targets twice on the way to and back. Just a nice little buff but not something would overly change our rotation or anything, but give the ability some flavor. I do like the Chains idea but it probably has some PVP repricussions and I don't like the idea of disarming myself.

[Skarssen]

A lot of this is subjective, but I think fury is one of the most well-designed specs in the game right now. It has a few issues; high crit dependence foremost and the crippling scenario where CS doesn't land, but those are relatively easy fixes. AOE may be "clunky" or inelegant, but it works. Overall there are very few problems that NEED addressing, and most of what is being discussed here is merely luxury or personal preference. There really aren't any fundamental problems with fury other than the over-reliance upon BT crits to function. Play a DPS DK if you want to experience truly floundering specs.

[Artorius]

I have to say, I love the theorycraft community of warriors here, lots of ideas and lots of promising threads!
But, seriously... Fury is a solid spec right now and arguably one of the most well designed ones.
RNG at low ilvls is still a problem, we all agree with it. They'll probably change the way BT and RB interact between themselves, BT always giving a stack of RB is viable, although your idea of the 6s CD is also viable.

Crushing blows sounds interesting but will never go live, it's just a haste version of crit as someone already mentioned.
I dislike your wild strikes idea, heroic strike is already there out of GCD to get rid of the extra rage, we could get another thing to do it, but we don't need it.

But for real... THIS HEROIC THROW IDEA IS JUST GENIUS!!!
The current Heroic Throw makes no sense, there is nothing "heroic" in throwing a weapon that's deal close to no-damage.
Waiting for Collision.

[Deleted]

I really like how Fury is at the moment to be honest, sure it is frustrating before you get higher gear levels but once you get a solid crit chance I find it a really nice spec, the one thing that does bother me is I would like Colossus Smash to be unavoidable (cannot be dodged or parried) maybe it's my brain lag but the one time when a boss spins around and it does get parried or so, it really bothers me

[Fatalfuror]

Yeah I'm not going to draw out a long winded argument like you just did; everything you said basically boils down to "nu uh!"

All you've done is become a Negative Nancy without any actual reasons. It's just one long "my opinion is that your ideas suck". It's clear that you're fine with the way things are and don't want anything substantial changed. Make that point and move on. But don't come in here, expecting me to give a damn when you state your opinions as if they are facts. If you want respect, try showing some first. Because as of yet, you've shown me exactly none.

This game isn't designed to be very complicated. Which is why most classes have one, maybe two "complex" systems of dps. For Warriors its the CS debuff.

CS isn't complex, nor is it complicated. It's extremely straight-forward.

Moreover, the idea that's been touted is "easy to learn, difficult to master". I disagree that any of my proposed reworks/redesigns would significantly alter how complicated the spec is or how easy it is to pick up. It would, however, increase the skill cap. So, basically no change at the lower end and more for those of us who want something with a higher skill cap. I don't see how that isn't a win-win.

I will elaborate on Parry: It is there to herd melee into a central area. They have specifically stated that they like the idea of Tanks in front, Melee behind, Ranged spread out around. Why does it need to be changed?

I already answered this with 5 different points. You have addressed exactly zero of them. Again, you've shown me that your reading comprehension skills are either severely lacking, or you simply dislike me too much to actually read what I've written. In other words, anger clouds your judgment and you're too busy attempting to save face. I addressed every point you attempted to make, and dealt with them in a logical, rational manner. If you refuse to see my arguments for what they are, that's on you.

I will agree, CS parry is a bit too punishing (should not go on CD, similar to Pally TV), but that is a separate issue.

The easiest solution to the problem is to remove frontal boss parry and then make all attacks dealt from behind offer a damage bonus to melee characters. That provides incentive to be behind the boss without having to micromanage certain abilities like CSmash. I, for one, have zero faith in Blizzard's ability to properly micromanage all of the classes. This is why things need to be systematically dealt with. Moreover, this is something in addition to the points I elaborated on in my original response to you, that you decided to ignore.

We have been spammy since almost inception, having any off the GCD abilities will do that. Even without our high ilvl, we are spammy during our CS debuff.

Fury Warriors are supposed to be spammy. That's the way the spec is supposed to play. Frenetic. To slow it down any further would be a disservice to the spec. Moreover, you haven't shown me where anything I've suggested creates a situation that is "more spammy" or "too spammy". Prove your point or move on. The lack of reasoning behind the vast majority of your negativity just shows me that this discussion with you is pointless.

Lastly; don't try to be insulting because you don't like what I have to say, after asking for feedback.

Try to be insulting? I don't try, sir. Moreover, you asked for it with your original response and this further response, which shows nothing but disrespect towards me. You cannot provide feedback when you fail to properly explain anything you've criticized, or when you're too busy constructing strawmen to burn down. Essentially, your arguments boil down to "the sky will fall!"

You act like the spec is full of issues and desperately needs correction, or needs new ideas to stay fresh.

The spec has problems that need to be addressed. Moreover, an infusion of interesting/new things, as well as a revamping of broken old things, should be welcomed. I cannot help you if you do not see where I'm coming from by now. Especially when everything you say is cloaked in hyperbole.

The problem is all your ideas revolve around new ideas, and new things to track. And while that may not seem complicated to you, this game is not aimed towards the expert players, it revolves around things the average player can pickup and run with.

Oh, so you speak for all of the average players, now? Judging from your other posts, I just assumed you spoke for every Warrior - since you often state your opinions as if they are objective fact.

I'd rather the player base decide what they can and cannot deal with. Not a Forum Warrior.

That's where "overly complicated" comes from.

You still haven't explained what's "overly complicated" about anything I've suggested.

Warriors have more button bloat than most classes, and the devs have already talked about nerfing every spec down to one CD.

Hence why, at least for Fury, I think Cleave needs to be removed - since it is redundant and doesn't fit anywhere in our rotation. Perhaps a few other abilities, as well. But that also means that our existing abilities should be spruced up a bit - made to be more interesting (half the point of this entire thread, which you seem to be missing). If we simply keep losing things every expansion, we'll soon be left with nothing.

I also disagree with this idea that everyone only needs one CD. I am not in favor of further dumbing down the game. Having 2-4 CDs, that occupy a healthy range of timers, is fine, IMO. Maybe part of the reason we don't agree is because I don't simply agree with everything a Blizzdev writes. And neither should you.

Why do we need a Haste version of Crit in "crushing blows"?

Crushing Blows is my solution to the problem of Haste scaling. And, by far, it is the most thematically/mechanically interesting (out of a lot of duds, respectfully) out of those that have been suggested by others. And we should be legitimately concerned about secondary stat balance when they are still focused on removing Reforging. I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of terrible stats leveling up or raiding, and neither should anyone else.

Moreover, I already pre-empted the criticism of it being "crit-lite" (the bleed will slightly differentiate, but it's a moot point regardless). I explicitly stated so in my original post. But again, do any of you have a better solution? Didn't think so.

1 sec GCD has been thrown around a dozen times on this forum. It simply doesn't work, doesn't increase dps, and doesn't do anything for us, and screws up CS. The only way it plays out is if BT CD is reduced along with it.

Nobody is suggesting that we simply throw in a 1-sec GCD and change nothing else. But that's what you're assuming when you say it won't work. Of course things would need changed if we were to drop half a second of GCD. Again, drop the hyperbole and think for a second.

Also, let me state again since you didn't get it the first two times: the GCD reduction is something I'd like looked at, but it is not part of my prime wishlist. It is simply something that should be kept up for consideration. Don't get your panties in a wad.

Your ideas, frankly suck, but I am not going to sit here and bash on them; because you will just accuse me again of being "hyperbolic" or just "bad" when you run out of other insults to throw around.

My ideas might suck, but you have yet to actually elaborate as to why they might. And yes, your posts are completely full of hyperbole and logical fallacies. Rather than discuss things that I have said, or elaborated on, you'd rather suggest the sky is indeed falling for every single change that might be made. It's delusional, at best. To top it off, you've failed to actually answer any of my questions asking for real explanations.

If this were Diablo 3, you might be onto something, but overload of mechanics simply isn't what WoW aims for. They are aiming to remove button bloat, not add it and our class is one of the worst in that regard.

Except WoW has gone down the road of D3 to the point where things are simplified too much. Even the loot system is turning into D3. Talents? They're exactly like D3's ability choices. So, reality is, you're making my argument. The game has been dumbed down. Instead of exciting and interesting, we get RNG piled on RNG with a little sprinkling of RNG on top. Like your RNG? Here's some more RNG to go with it. It's a veritable layered RNG cake!

And yet I'm the bad guy for wanting things to be legitimately interesting? For wanting the skill cap to be raised a bit, rather than lowered yet again? And how patronizing it really is to broadcast this idea - this corrupting idea - that all the average players simply want to be pandered to. That they want everything to be easy for them. Who are you to decide that? Did you conduct a scientific poll to determine how complex or complicated things must be? If I were simply an "average" player I wouldn't want to be patronized by some presumptive know-it-all on the internet suggesting that I'm completely incapable of pressing a button twice or managing a little rage.

The amusing part is that Blizzard seems to disagree that dumbing everything down is reasonable. Mythic 5-Mans are coming back, harder than ever. Mythic Raiding will be tuned appropriately. That's what they say, of course. Whether that comes to be is anyone's guess. Yet, at the same time, they do appear to be dumbing things down - or at the very least, taking control away from players. Reforge gone, here's some more RNG on your loot.

Also, I love how you spent your time not defending your ideas and why they would be good, but instead just trying to call out my assertions, and attacking me over saying how unnecessary your proposed ideas are.

I defended my ideas appropriately. Especially so considering I found exactly zero legitimacy to any of your supposed "arguments". I mean, what am I supposed to argue against? You've said nothing specific, nor have you been able to back up any of your points. Meanwhile, you're accusing me of attacking you while you do nothing but rant, rave, and exaggerate in an attempt to prove a point (but inevitably failing to do so). Remember what I said earlier? Show some respect, you might get some in return. But your very first post was nothing but garbage, and this one doubly so.

You want change simply for the sake of it, which has never been a good argument in this game.

I've given sufficient reasons for everything I've suggested (excepting perhaps the last three "to consider" things). If all you got from my post was that I wanted something arbitrarily, just because, then you've utterly failed at comprehending things I've explicitly stated multiple times.

Misrepresenting my arguments, my opinions, my ideas - misrepresenting me, is about the lowest you can go. Especially when the evidence to the contrary is right in front of your face.

Fact is; we aren't in a bad place, quite the opposite really, so we have no need for your supposed progress.

But that's, just, like, your opinion, man.

[Neromius]

And now the thread will go to shit all because you couldn't argue ideas instead of attacking another person. Like I said before you had a couple good ideas and in general just bring up good topics to discuss because it's basically worthless now because you couldn't handle criticism and decided to be so condescending.

[Darkfriend]

Fatal, if you think we're in a bad place, you're either playing the class wrong, haven't seen the data showing where Fury is currently, or chose to ignore the prior two. There really is no other option.

Face it, not every opinion is valid. There are subjective and objective matters. Fury being a very strong spec in the hands of a skilled player is objective. Fury being fun is subjective. What can be done to fix fury is both subjective and objective (Such as lower GCD, that can be answered objectively- it does jack all.).

Does fury have issues? Sure, every class does. But those are more tweaks than sweeping changes. Things like CS being parried and put on CD, rotation at lower crit rates, and the low value of haste being among them.

What we don't need are crazy changes. We are in a great spot DPS wise, in a solid spot fun wise (IMO ofc), and in a solid spot as far as gameplay/rotation goes. I commend the brainstorming, I thought the crushing blows idea was an interesting concept to fix haste, although I havn't given it enough thought to see if in your current iteration it would do much, but subjectively I just don't think we need most of these changes. I just spent this last Xpac teaching people how to play fury, and you want me to do it all over again?

[Fatalfuror]

And now the thread will go to shit all because you couldn't argue ideas instead of attacking another person. Like I said before you had a couple good ideas and in general just bring up good topics to discuss because it's basically worthless now because you couldn't handle criticism and decided to be so condescending.

Clearly, it's all my fault. After all, I'm the one who's misrepresenting people with stupid statements like these:

"You want change simply for the sake of it, which has never been a good argument in this game."

... Oh, right, that wasn't me. I think I thoroughly, if not verbosely, explained my positions on almost everything I expanded upon in my original post. Are you going to continue licking Archimtiros' boot even in light of the fact that he's done nothing but attack me?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. The thread can continue just fine. But, of course, I don't have unlimited time to get to every response.

@Juni:

Wild strike will simply be something you keep up when u get x rage, making it uninteresting rather quickly after the initial "omg new button" excitement settles. There's nothing wrong with spamming HS to dump rage and this mechanic will simply take it's place.

You do have a point here. The intention, however, wasn't simply to take Heroic Strike's place. I admit, it's probably one of the weaker redesigns - but I'm not sure where else to take Wild Strike without making it just like a lot of other things. I also feel like Heroic Strike is wearing thin on my patience, especially in the late tiers.

Yes, it would be a good idea for aoe seeing as WW + RB (if you happen to not use BS) is clunky and doesn't really feel welcome in our somewhat fluid rotation.

That was part of the intent. IMO, Fury should be King of Cleave. WW+RB can feel incredibly disjointed just because of the excessive rage costs, as well. And as we all know, it takes way too long to build up when we simply need a little burst. So, in that sense, the proposition does fill a niche of sorts that could use an improvement.

Flurry just sounds really pointless to me and will just add to button bloat. Let's say multistrike ends up being TERRIBLE for us. Then what..? Then we'll just have another button that's meaningless and unused.

Well, I disagree that even if Multistrike turns out terrible for us that it'll be unused. I mean, a free CD is a free CD. And the effect of numbers flying around on the screen is something that Multistrike can promote more of. That has a legitimate claim to promoting the feeling of a more frenetic damage dealer.

As for button bloat, Cleave isn't the only thing that might warrant removal so that we can gain one or two reworked abilities. At the moment, my suggestions are a net zero to button bloat.

I will admit that my idea for Flurry is the least interesting of the bunch. But I'm already being attacked for making things somehow "too complicated" - and this is after I simplified some of the ideas I had churning in my head before I wrote this up. So, c'est la vie.

However, there are 2 things that I somewhat agree with, haste needs to be better in WoD and Heroic Throw is just bad for most situations.

I'd still love for Haste to be more involved than what I proposed, but that seems impossible without a major mechanics overhaul.

@Neromius

Unfortunately low crit levels come along with low level gear, especially true as a player is leveling up and just starting each tier. It's just part of how we balance in the bigger picture with crit being ridiculously easy to come by at the end of each tier.

Fury shouldn't feel terrible to play just because our gear isn't in the 2nd/3rd tier yet. That's just poor design, imo. That's the main reason I want it changed. It should feel fluid from the start and then get better and better from there. Not like it is now: shit at the start and barely less frustrating at the end. It's no secret that Fury relies on Crit to have anything resembling "not clunky".

For haste you seem to want change simply because your least beneficial stat exists.

There is no guarantee that we'll have anywhere near optimal stats in WoD. Especially since we won't have access to reforging. So yes, it's imperative that we get our secondary stat values as close to one another as possible. Does it need to be perfect? No. But Haste needs some serious effing work. This isn't simply "haste is 2% less useful than crit", it's more like "haste is 50% less useful than crit". That gap is far too wide. We should be aiming for 5% between all secondaries.

My concern is being stuck with sub-optimal gear and a class that doesn't play fluidly even at higher tiers simply because all of this was overlooked. And that is a real, valid concern.

As far as Flurry is concerned, now I do agree that it feels very unimportant to the point of not being noticeably helpful at all. As for that, we should be less concerned with adding more to make it attractive, and simply bake that dps in to another ability

As I noted in my original post, I think we're missing low-CD buffs, which is why I placed it at 1 minute. Other than Bloodbath, which is a talent we must choose, we have nothing that occupies that spot. And I guess part of it is just nostalgia - Flurry has been a part of Fury for a long, long time. I think it needs to be somewhat important or involved, rather than passive.

I suppose another idea is to bake it in as a passive that upscales the damage dealt by Multistrikes, or adds some other effect to Multistrikes (like a chance for sub-procs), which would help promote scaling of that particular stat with our spec. Thematically that still makes sense.

Wild Strike, unfortunately is just something I disagree with you on. I like it. It's there when I need to dump rage and HS is on CD, yet allows me to pump out just a bit more dps inside of a CD proc or CS window.

Well, something needs done to it that encourages us to use it later on, rather than use it less and less. As I said, doing 3% or less of my total damage in a fight is just about pointless for an ability like that. So.. brainstorm some solutions with me. I also forgot that it applied the Mortal Wounds debuff, which needs to be accounted for.

Cleave however, I do agree with you on and your suggestion that it be removed to get rid of ability bloat, but I know arms and prot still like it very much so it would appear to have to stay for now.

Well, Arms pretty much ignores it as well. Prot, not sure, haven't played it in a while. Most of the AoE threat/damage from Prot seems to be from Blood and Thunder. Cleave just seems utterly worthless for just about every spec as it is now.

Heroic Throw Sweet baby Jesus I like your suggestion here. Nothing else to add to that haha.

At least I seem to have hit a good note with this one.

@Tzel

The only reason I care about reforging being eliminated is due to how disparate our stats are in terms of effect. In top end gear, the weight of crit is 3-4x that of haste. If, for some reason, we are super unlucky and only get non-tier pieces with haste on them, we can at least recoup some of that nowadays.

Exactly. Reforging really needs to stay, regardless of how well they balance secondary stats. It's about giving players some control over their gear and how they play. Removing control does nothing positive in this situation.

My concern is that if they fail to bring all our secondary stats (including the new ones) within reasonable distance of each other, that they will have to re-balance our class - and all others effected - every tier. The buff/nerf cycle to Arms and Fury in Cataclysm was annoying at best, and in the final raid tier Arms was propped up by mastery and an incredibly OP Gurthalak. I don't want to have to have all our abilities buffed one tier, because all the non-tier pieces are poorly itemized for us, only to be nerfed the next when everything has crit on it, then brought back up again, and round and round.

Agreed on all accounts. Nobody likes to ride the nerf/buff roller coaster every tier. And many of us have been through crappy tiers where the buffs came too late, or the nerfs came too soon.

@FobManX

I don't know about your BT 30% stuff, I think what I'd do is make it so BT hits always grant one stack of RB, while BT crits grant two, and let RB stack to 3 or something like that.

I somewhat agree with you, anyway. But this goes deeper than just RB. This is about Enrage, as well. And our Mastery. In an ideal world, I'd redesign the whole damn thing (which is where the secondary resource would come in - which I pushed for during MoP Beta). What you see in this post is a compromise between the people that want things to stay the same, and those of us that want less RNG.

Haste...sounds good I guess, I don't know as long as there is something that makes Haste not suck so much I'm fine with it.

Yeah, it doesn't have to be super-amazing-awesome idea. And mine certainly isn't. But we desperately need *something* that will work and scale appropriately. I believe I have a solution that would work, but it's not necessarily the best solution (probably guaranteed not to be).

I like Flurry just fine. Every class has some passive boosts that you don't really worry about. I don't want another CD to manage, and I don't think abilities that grant tertiary stats would work since there are no guarantees of us getting those stats since they'll be randomized on gear.

Multistrike, last I read, was slated as a Secondary stat. We'll have Crit, Haste, Mastery, Readiness, Amplify, and Multistrike as secondaries in WoD. Unless something changed recently. Of those, we already scale/have mechanics that benefit from Crit, Mastery, Haste (sucky), and Amplify. Readiness isn't something you could bake into a CD buff like I proposed.. so that left Multistrike, which fits pretty well anyway.

Again, I'm open to suggestions to make this stuff better. Just not if you're going to attack me and take a giant dump all over the thread.

I don't care too much about Heroic Throw, but it'd be cool if they made it like Hunter's Glaive Toss and have it hit targets twice on the way to and back. Just a nice little buff but not something would overly change our rotation or anything, but give the ability some flavor. I do like the Chains idea but it probably has some PVP repricussions and I don't like the idea of disarming myself.

Ironically enough, I originally cooked up an idea that was almost identical to Glaive Toss back at the beginning of Cata called "Boomerang Blades" that I threw up on the official WoW forum multiple times. Whether or not they stole/took the idea and ran with it, obviously it ended up on Hunters, much to my chagrin. So this is like my original idea v2.0 :\

The original intent was to fix our problem with being useful on anti-melee adds during boss fights (at the time, Cho'gall's Black Blood). These types of adds seem to always crop up in raid tiers - and it's just a pain being useless against them. But yes, the secondary component is also so that we aren't just sitting ducks in PvP when rooted.

----

Anyway, that's all I'm getting to right now. If there's anything I missed or didn't elaborate on, let me know.

[Archimtiros]

Your an awfully angry person, and really like attacking me for some reason.
You quote every single line of text I type and spit out a response that is just argumentative, insulting or otherwise antagonistic.

Example:

BOSSES SHOULD NOT PARRY FROM IN FRONT. AT ALL. Give melee a boost to damage from hitting the backside if you want us there, but these constant negative approaches to encouraging certain behaviors is just laughably stupid. Removing Frontal Boss Parry should've been done a long time ago.. why they're sticking with it, I'll never know. There is zero legitimate reason to not fix this.

I will elaborate on Parry: It is there to herd melee into a central area. They have specifically stated that they like the idea of Tanks in front, Melee behind, Ranged spread out around. Why does it need to be changed? I will agree, CS parry is a bit too punishing (should not go on CD, similar to Pally TV), but that is a separate issue.
They have hit on boss encounter design a few times. One they are removing positional requirements (backstab) and two most bosses that are stationary can't parry anymore.

I already answered this with 5 different points. You have addressed exactly zero of them. Again, you've shown me that your reading comprehension skills are either severely lacking, or you simply dislike me too much to actually read what I've written. In other words, anger clouds your judgment and you're too busy attempting to save face. I addressed every point you attempted to make, and dealt with them in a logical, rational manner. If you refuse to see my arguments for what they are, that's on you.

Judging by your walls of text and quoting every sentence written with mostly antagonistic responses instead of more/better ideas, I don't think you have dealt with anything in a logical or rational manner.

I certainly never saw five points. Regardless, you addressed nothing at all. I responded to your terse statement with Blizzards point of view on things, which has been expressed multiple times. You may think CS parrying is too punishing and I agree, but that is a quite simple fix. You instead think a damage increase when attacking from behind is better, and I disagree. The fact that my disagreeing leads you to rage and pretend I ignore (or can't) read what you wrote on the subject (which was very little to begin with, certainly not 5 well thought out points).
The reason Parrying is better is because it really is a very small decrease in dps when it is unavoidable, barring extremely bad RNG (or rotation breaking parries, such as CS). It does however, "force" players to attempt to get behind for optimization and to heard the players where the devs want them.

The reason your idea is bad, is because bonus damage mechanics start stacking out of control. It is one of the reasons Warlocks keep getting nerfed and the devs have been looking at removing CD's, and nerfing Trinket reliability.
Those damage increasing mechanics also effect each class differently, in the same manner that getting any damage boost (eg: Tricks) is not as good for some classes as others. When you then have to +/- that damage bonus for each class or even spec individually, I think that becomes a lot harder to do than "properly micromanage all of the classes", something they have to do anyways due to the myriad nature of differing abilities and interactions.

Lastly your idea doesn't address those bosses that must be attacked from the front (eg: Tortos) who, unlike in the past, are generally now unable to Parry. You could just make those bosses apply the damage bonus from the front as well; but if you do that, I ask again; what really is the point of the change in the first place?
The answer is simple: you believe Positive Reinforcement (the damage boost), is better incentive than Negative Reinforcement (damage loss from Parry).

And that is fine! But it still boils down to an unnecessary change; it is quite simply breaking something that doesn't need to be fixed.
Parry is a very small problem. Sure its an annoyance at times and on specific bosses, but every spec can find something to complain about. As I said before, ours is quite easy to fix if the developers wanted to.


I'll respond to this one more, because it stood out to me, and because I honestly only read about half of what you wrote due to skimming through paragraph after paragraph of rage and pointless insults.

I also disagree with this idea that everyone only needs one CD. I am not in favor of further dumbing down the game. Having 2-4 CDs, that occupy a healthy range of timers, is fine, IMO. Maybe part of the reason we don't agree is because I don't simply agree with everything a Blizzdev writes. And neither should you.

At one time I would agree with you, but keep in mind that while everyone thinks change is bad at first, dumbing down the game is not necessarily a bad thing. People made the same argument time and time again, and yet the game has improved vastly with each expansion. I have many time played on private servers, which traditionally are an expansion behind, and each time the game was almost unplayable for missing all those little improvements that you don't realize until they are gone.
I remember raiding with 30m-1h CD's, standing in Ironforge, Orgrimmar, and Shattrath spending longer looking for people to do a dungeon with than time spent actually doing the dungeon. Grinding to High Warlord and PVP in general was a mad house back then (anyone else remember day long AV queues?). How about ammo? Or having to get a ranged weapon you don't actually use? I remember converting from 40man raids down to 25 and am greatly looking forward to 20m. I love the ease of travel present in the game now, and the flow of leveling and questing (don't even get me started on how bad that used to be!). And many more improvements that get hate constantly.

But I digress. Having multiple CD's may be fine to you, and fine for me as well, but some developers have expressed an opinion that it may be worth removing to fix more than one issue (it actually isn't about dumbing down the game, though that may be a part of it, it's about the extravagant amount of damage stacking).
Lastly, I don't blindly agree with everything developers say, but I generally understand the viewpoint that it comes from. I have been against the removal of reforging from the beginning, though I can easily see how it won't be a terrible thing, assuming they spend more effort bringing stats in line with eachother for certain imbalanced classes. I simply can't believe how you chastise me for "having an opinion", and here tell me that I blindly follow the developers believes and have no opinions of my own. If you think I simply root for them 24/7 perhaps you should go back and read some older posts, as I was perhaps the most vocal opponent of the early 5.4 Arms changes/spec on these forums (and am still against the spec for the most part).

You can call me bad or dumb, or a "forum Warrior" (what does that even mean? lol), all you want; but I have played this game for a very long time and seen it move through countless evolutions. I also believe that I have an extremely good grasp on both its mechanics and design philosophy, being able to understand not only how but also why they make the changes that they do, and how seemingly "changes for casuals/dumbing down" can be good for everyone in the long run.

But whether you don't like my feedback, or simply think your above me, that is your business. The fact that you have to result to insulting me and using your anger to over exaggerate my posts is indicative enough and will mean that your posts simply won't ever be taken seriously.

[Fatalfuror]

I certainly never saw five points.

My point exactly. You've decided to ignore pretty much everything I've written, starting with the first post.

Proof of that, this is what I wrote and what I was referencing:

There is a real problem.
A) Ranged don't deal with anything similar.
B) An "unlucky" parry can significantly effect certain specs' DPS. We've all raged about parried CSmash before.
C) It's negative encouragement, not positive encouragement, which just feels like an arbitrary punishment for no good reason.
D) Standing behind the boss can be positively encouraged by simply adding a damage buff and removing the parry. This ensures that all classes are treated equitably.
E) Boss encounter design is hampered by having to compensate for frontal parry or consider it during design. Removing it will allow for less headaches and perhaps expanded ability design.

The fact that my disagreeing leads you to rage and pretend I ignore (or can't) read what you wrote on the subject (which was very little to begin with, certainly not 5 well thought out points).

Pretend you ignore? Please. Every single thing you've said to me has been condescending and full of hyperbole, false statements, and logical fallacies. I'm done considering this a "discussion" (laughable as it ever was). This is just me telling you to kindly go somewhere else with your baseless nonsense.

The reason your idea is bad, is because bonus damage mechanics start stacking out of control.

Hyperbole. A 2-3% damage buff from behind would literally do almost nothing to create instances of imbalance. Imbalance comes from stacking damage CDs, not from flat buffs. Anyone with half a brain can recognize that.

The answer is simple: you believe Positive Reinforcement (the damage boost), is better incentive than Negative Reinforcement (damage loss from Parry).

It's better from a psychological standpoint and from a design standpoint.

I'll respond to this one more, because it stood out to me, and because I honestly only read about half of what you wrote due to skimming through paragraph after paragraph of rage and pointless insults.

Quoted for my own amusement. That's some hardcore cognitive dissonance you have there.

As for the rest, I never asked for your life story.

Many of us, myself included, have played since Vanilla and remember all of the things you blabber on pointlessly about. My concerns about dumbing down the game have nothing to do with adding QoL improvements like Dungeon Finder.

Keep trying to save face, buddy. As far as I'm concerned, you're just digging yourself a bigger hole to bury yourself in. Taken in their entirety, your responses are just preposterous.

I'm still wondering where you got this idea from:

You want change simply for the sake of it, which has never been a good argument in this game.

Care to explain that complete misrepresentation of literally everything I've said? Or are you just going to continue acting smug?

Anyway, at least most of the people in this thread aren't basing their "arguments" on ad hominems. And I'll be happy to deal with those.

[Anuibus]

would be nice for RB to function similar to revenge and for heroic throw to not be the trash it is now. I see no point in having another cooldown via flurry and if wild strike were to be reworked in that way, it would need to replace heroic strike altogether. No point in having 2 massive rage dumps.

[Archimtiros]

Your points weren't in your original post, which is what I responded to.
But since you brought it up:

A) Doesn't matter if you are properly positioned. Ranged wouldn't benefit from your supposed dmg increase, so that is a wash.
B) Very true, but only CS really detriments from this, and its been brought up before. Changing an entire mechanic for one ability that could be easily changed if they cared to is not likely.
C) Games like this are built around negative reinforcement. Push this button now or fail and die. Either way its not justification for changing the mechanic because it is a very very small issue that only seriously effects one spec.
D) This is just reiterating your suggestion again, not an argument.
E) Most stationary bosses don't parry from the front anymore. Either way you'd have the exact same problem any time you couldn't attack from the rear and get your damage buff, so I fail to see how it solves anything.

I didn't condescend you, or make any false statements. Keep trying to put me down if you want, your just making yourself out to be more and more of a rage freak joke at this point.
The 2-3% (as you say) has nothing to do with causing imbalance on itself but imbalance vs classes (some getting more from it than others), these days everyone complains about 5% damage difference deltas.

I can't stomach making it through your whole posts because all it is, is trying to call me out. You aren't even making an argument your just trying to bash me. Apparently I pissed on you in a previous life or something; but you waltz in here like your the king of everything and can't stomach anyone disagreeing with you.

The point about my "life story" is the fact that players continually complain about all of the points I brought up, because they "made the game easier" or "dumbed it down." The same baseless argument you are making.

The idea came from you suggesting mechanics which don't fit into our playstyle and only add more things to deal with with little to no benefit, simply because you think the class needs to change. You said it yourself. You want "progression" you aren't happy with "ok or fine". The class doesn't need a lot of changes, the devs don't want to overtly change the classes. You really need to just chill out and stop attacking or find a new venue to rant because all you've done is get angry and whine.

You haven't tried to refute anything I've said, you just spit the word like "hyperbole" and "logical fallacies" at an alarming rate. I hope you do consider this laughable discussion over, because it never was a discussion. It's simply you raving like a mad man at every individual sentence of mine.