Jaina's "descent" summarized in the simplest way possible

[Rustedsaint]

Id just chalk it up to a bad case of the monthlies.

[Florena]

tell that to the people who were complaining about GC when it came to class balance

So scapegoating is a thing. Doesn't prove anything about Kosak being intentionally destructive to races he doesn't like.

[Trassk]

So scapegoating is a thing. Doesn't prove anything about Kosak being intentionally destructive to races he doesn't like.

Its called negligence. He may not hate the other races, but he has no love for them either, and in the long run this is reflected in the story ingame, but how the story pans out. He is intentionally focusing on making his favorite races look good, because it makes him feel good doing so, where as he has no issues with making other races look bad and pawning it off as development.

[Florena]

Its called negligence. He may not hate the other races, but he has no love for them either, and in the long run this is reflected in the story ingame, but how the story pans out. He is intentionally focusing on making his favorite races look good, because it makes him feel good doing so, where as he has no issues with making other races look bad and pawning it off as development.

And your evidence is? It's not like WoW"s storytelling was stellar before he took over anyway, and it's not like the guy has sole say in everything that goes on, so far as I know Metzen's still above him. I've not noticed any stark shift in the story with Kosak's rise.

[Traveler Voltin]

And your evidence is? It's not like WoW"s storytelling was stellar before he took over anyway, and it's not like the guy has sole say in everything that goes on, so far as I know Metzen's still above him. I've not noticed any stark shift in the story with Kosak's rise.

you dont see it because you dont want to see it.
mezten's favorite race is night elves. guess what got butchered in MoP besides orcs? thats right elves. mezten would never allow his favorite toys to be butchered.

[Florena]

you dont see it because you dont want to see it.
mezten's favorite race is night elves. guess what got butchered in MoP besides orcs? thats right elves. mezten would never allow his favorite toys to be butchered.

Night elves have been neutered from what they were in wc 3 since vanilla. And I'm not saying there havn't been fuckups, I'm saying assuming that he's out to get certain races is ridiculous.

[Deleted]

you dont see it because you dont want to see it.
mezten's favorite race is night elves. guess what got butchered in MoP besides orcs? thats right elves. mezten would never allow his favorite toys to be butchered.

And they didn't get neutered in Cata? Night Elves have lost all of their teeth from WC3, that just wasn't obvious until Night Elves got a bit more lore in Cataclysm. Also Metzen is still in charge of the overall story.

[Zulkhan]

Jaina: Don't do the thing!

Arthas: Gonna do the thing!

Jaina: Don't do the thing!

Daelin: Gonna do the thing!

Jaina: Don't-

Varian: RAWHGLBLARG

Try to say Varian didn't deserve at least a "FUCK YOU".

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Considering that the Kor'kron pretty much made up the entire orcish military in the end and the fact that the number of orcish revolutionaries was rather small, i think that the Pro Garrosh Orcs were not the minority.

It's doubtful. Orcs of the New Horde were present in the Kor'kron, but they were surely a minority compared to the rest of their people.

What made the Kor'kron so absurdly numerous in MoP is the addition of the Blackrock, those previously living in the Burning Steppes and left leaderless by Eitrigg's and Ariok's actions, something Garrosh exploited for empower his forces and having soldiers unquestiongly loyal to his persona alone, along with the blind fanatics he already have. Saurfang stated how Garrosh betrayed "his people", so the Kor'kron weren't a legit represantation anymore of the "sane" orcs of the New Horde, at least after the events occured in the 5.3/5.4.

This whole shit is sadily ironic, since Eitrigg did the shit he did in the Burning Steppes for forcing the Blackrock in changing their ways, instead all he obtained has been gifting Garrosh with new, loyal and like-minded troops. The "True Horde" as we saw it in SoO couldn't have been born and become the same kind of menace without those precious additions.

Garrosh wouldn't have probably the basic knowledge for create his Dark Shaman organization even, without those shamans that previously served the Twlight's Hammer.

[Kralljin]

It's doubtful. Orcs of the New Horde were present in the Kor'kron, but they were surely a minority compared to the rest of their people.

What made the Kor'kron so absurdly numerous in MoP is the addition of the Blackrock, those previously living in the Burning Steppes and left leaderless by Eitrigg's and Ariok's actions, something Garrosh exploited for empower his forces and having soldiers unquestiongly loyal to his persona alone, along with the blind fanatics he already have.

Kind of ironic that you mention the Blackrock guys, have you seen any Blackrock guys loyal to Garrosh except Malkorok? Their numbers were rather small or poorly expressed ingame.

Garrosh wouldn't have probably the basic knowledge for create his Dark Shaman organization even, without those shamans that previously served the Twlight's Hammer.

I think Garrosh would have created the Dark Shaman at the point where some Shaman would have replied like "We must consult the elements hurrdurr" and Garrosh goes like "wtf just take it, we're the horde!"

[Deleted]

Kind of ironic that you mention the Blackrock guys, have you seen any Blackrock guys loyal to Garrosh except Malkorok? Their numbers were rather small or poorly expressed ingame.

A lot of things are poorly expressed ingame but even in the novel it only really says Garrosh granted "a number" of Blackrocks amnesty. That could mean anything.

[Kralljin]

A lot of things are poorly expressed ingame but even in the novel it only really says Garrosh granted "a number" of Blackrocks amnesty. That could mean anything.

That's why i think their number was rather small, if they had some decent numbers they would have at least appeared as some kind of mini boss or whatever but there was really not a single blackrock around.

[Deleted]

you dont see it because you dont want to see it.
mezten's favorite race is night elves. guess what got butchered in MoP besides orcs? thats right elves. mezten would never allow his favorite toys to be butchered.

Seriously? Metzen's love for Thrall is well-known yet Thrall was made awful in Cataclysm. If you think Metzen is protecting his favourite parts of the WoW story either you're wrong or Metzen's definition of good character development isn't the same as ours and if that's the case it's hardly Kosak's fault what happens to his favourites.

[Haven]

Seriously? Metzen's love for Thrall is well-known yet Thrall was made awful in Cataclysm. If you think Metzen is protecting his favourite parts of the WoW story either you're wrong or Metzen's definition of good character development isn't the same as ours and if that's the case it's hardly Kosak's fault what happens to his favourites.

It's the definition of author's pet - looks horrible for anyone except author, who forces his pet as the messiah down the throats of audience.

[Zulkhan]

Kind of ironic that you mention the Blackrock guys, have you seen any Blackrock guys loyal to Garrosh except Malkorok? Their numbers were rather small or poorly expressed ingame.

How much they're expressed in game have little importance (or, well, it should have, but we're habit to this, sadly) it's canon that Garrosh gave amnesty to every Blackrock swearing loyalty to him. And they are surely all in the Kor'kron. Even Kosak stated that, canonically, we were going to kill mostly Dragonmaw (outside) and Blackrock (inside).

Plus Saurfang tries to convince Nazgrim to abandon "his Warchief responsibilities" for "his own people". This statement would make no sort of sense if the majority of the orcs were all steadily behind Garrosh.

I think Garrosh would have created the Dark Shaman at the point where some Shaman would have replied like "We must consult the elements hurrdurr" and Garrosh goes like "wtf just take it, we're the horde!"

Oh well, I don't think Dark Shamanism is something you take out from hat "because". The Blackrock collaborated with the Twilight's Hammer in Cataclysm, and the Hammer has been connected to the "Dark Shaman" organization, which seemed to be a "new" Hammer, but in reality they were Kor'kron under Garrosh's command. And Garrosh added Blackrock in the Kor'kron ranks not before Tides of War, and we never saw anything about Dark Shamanism until MoP.

Sure, no sort of undeniable facts here, but the amount of logic behind this is pretty abundant.

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That's why i think their number was rather small, if they had some decent numbers they would have at least appeared as some kind of mini boss or whatever but there was really not a single blackrock around.

Malkorok was more than enough as boss, and the only one deserving a model "a doc".

I think their numbers were considerable, at least half or little less of the whole Kor'kron. I don't know you, but I saw a considerable difference in the Kor'kron's numbers in MoP compared to Cata and WotLK; in MoP they are everywhere, except Domination Point (but they are in huge numbers in the "A Little Patience" scenario) they were just the "spearhead" of the Horde army, in MoP they are a self-sustained army, and I think that it's thanks to the Blackrock if the Kor'kron shifted from a spearhead to a legion, Garrosh's personal army.

Seems also that some Kor'kron do not recognize Thrall, technically their previous Warchief, like the one in the cutscene with Saurfang and Nazgrim, that just refer to him as "shaman".

[Traveler Voltin]

Seriously? Metzen's love for Thrall is well-known yet Thrall was made awful in Cataclysm. If you think Metzen is protecting his favourite parts of the WoW story either you're wrong or Metzen's definition of good character development isn't the same as ours and if that's the case it's hardly Kosak's fault what happens to his favourites.

Malfurion is metzen's favorite character. Thrall is just easier for him to write.

[CamdenQ]

The fact she openly helped to protect the Divine Bell from the Horde leaves the stench of hypocrisy there.

Neutrality means to keep your head out of a conflict or at least try bring both sides to one table, supporting one side and then go QQ mode when one of your faction helps the other side is anything but neutral.

That she purged the Sunreavers because they helped the Horde was logical, but then she should have expelled herself after putting up those wards in Darnassus.

I realize this post was awhile ago, but I had to comment. There are many ways to look at Jaina keeping the Bell from Garrosh, most of which do not contradict neutrality given the state of affairs at the time.

The most likely one to me is that she wasn't keeping to from the Horde, but from Garrosh himself, who many people on both sides were already openly opposed to. Granted, he leads the Horde, so that means keeping it from them as well, but that's not what it's about.

It could also be seen as Jaina being more interested in peace than neutrality. Garrosh is seeking weapons of mass destruction. Jaina entrusts the Night Elves with the most powerful one she knows of that Garrosh hasn't already used because she knows they'll never use it. Not only that, but they'd never give it up to Varian for him to use. As long as it's in Darnassus, it won't do any damage (at least now that Fandral is long gone).

Either way, the Sunreavers go behind her back to provide Garrosh, who is currently the greatest threat to peace on Azeroth, with exactly what he needs to fulfill all his dark and violent dreams. Not only that, but they do this KNOWING that Garrosh's racist New Horde doesn't really include them as equals, if at all.

Even if you still think keeping the Bell from the Horde and then getting pissed at the Sunreavers for breaking the neutrality smacks of hypocrisy, it can't be denied that giving it to someone that will use it is a far worse crime than preventing its use.

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Malfurion is metzen's favorite character. Thrall is just easier for him to write.

Are you serious? If Metzen were a mere player rather than basically the creative lead, he'd be playing as a orc shaman named Thrall. That's his character, his lore-self. Malfurion would be incredibly easy to write story for if anybody was actually interested in doing it. The druidic arts would have been just as usefull in the Cataclysm and Malfurion COULD have had a huge part. I mean, fuck, look at Hyjal.

The focus was on Thrall because that's where they (including Metzen) wanted it, not because it was easier.

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Garrosh wouldn't have probably the basic knowledge for create his Dark Shaman organization even, without those shamans that previously served the Twlight's Hammer.

Haromm and whatserface from SoO are the two head Dark Shaman, and they've been shaman trainers in Org from day 1. Pretty sure it was them doing the shamanistic corruption, not Garrosh.

[Traveler Voltin]

Are you serious? If Metzen were a mere player rather than basically the creative lead, he'd be playing as a orc shaman named Thrall. That's his character, his lore-self. Malfurion would be incredibly easy to write story for if anybody was actually interested in doing it. The druidic arts would have been just as usefull in the Cataclysm and Malfurion COULD have had a huge part. I mean, fuck, look at Hyjal.

Yes i am. Metzen has stated that malfurion is his favorite character and thrall is his 2nd. Night elves are also his favorite race. look it up.

[CamdenQ]

Yes i am. Metzen has stated that malfurion is his favorite character and thrall is his 2nd. Night elves are also his favorite race. look it up.

Metzen also claims he doesn't have any Horde bias. I don't go by the man's words. I go by his writing and development.

[Florena]

I realize this post was awhile ago, but I had to comment. There are many ways to look at Jaina keeping the Bell from Garrosh, most of which do not contradict neutrality given the state of affairs at the time.

The most likely one to me is that she wasn't keeping to from the Horde, but from Garrosh himself, who many people on both sides were already openly opposed to. Granted, he leads the Horde, so that means keeping it from them as well, but that's not what it's about.

It could also be seen as Jaina being more interested in peace than neutrality. Garrosh is seeking weapons of mass destruction. Jaina entrusts the Night Elves with the most powerful one she knows of that Garrosh hasn't already used because she knows they'll never use it. Not only that, but they'd never give it up to Varian for him to use. As long as it's in Darnassus, it won't do any damage (at least now that Fandral is long gone).

Either way, the Sunreavers go behind her back to provide Garrosh, who is currently the greatest threat to peace on Azeroth, with exactly what he needs to fulfill all his dark and violent dreams. Not only that, but they do this KNOWING that Garrosh's racist New Horde doesn't really include them as equals, if at all.

Even if you still think keeping the Bell from the Horde and then getting pissed at the Sunreavers for breaking the neutrality smacks of hypocrisy, it can't be denied that giving it to someone that will use it is a far worse crime than preventing its use.

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Are you serious? If Metzen were a mere player rather than basically the creative lead, he'd be playing as a orc shaman named Thrall. That's his character, his lore-self. Malfurion would be incredibly easy to write story for if anybody was actually interested in doing it. The druidic arts would have been just as usefull in the Cataclysm and Malfurion COULD have had a huge part. I mean, fuck, look at Hyjal.

The focus was on Thrall because that's where they (including Metzen) wanted it, not because it was easier.

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Haromm and whatserface from SoO are the two head Dark Shaman, and they've been shaman trainers in Org from day 1. Pretty sure it was them doing the shamanistic corruption, not Garrosh.

The bell was in darnassus because the night elves secured it, it was never In kirin tor custody.

[Trassk]

Metzen also claims he doesn't have any Horde bias. I don't go by the man's words. I go by his writing and development.

despite the fact horde got screwed over this expansion and the alliance came out on top you mean.