New Demon Hunter class idea

[Yig]

Why not just implement a warlock/dh quest line and at level 10 you either choose dh or lock... idk.
not gonna happen tho

Because they have nothing to do with each other beyond the most superficial similarities. Do you even follow the lore here?
And yet they come, in droves, they are legion, offering such informed commentary.

Why not do the same for Warriors and paladins?

Where do you draw the line and why?

[Deleted]

Just taking my wild hypothetical it seems and throwing it in the dirt.

Taking your delusional defense and ignoring it because if we go "But it's all just numbers n' button art" then we can throw out the Demon Hunter concept anyway.

[Romanthony]

I doubt we will ever see Demon hunters for 2 reasons.
One being that we need a new range class, as it stands right now, hunter is the only "Physical" ranged class, and they have 0 competition when it comes to Weapons.
And two, No they cant be a ranged class because diablo 3 DH are ranged, why? because Warcraft Demon hunters, have always been a melee class since introduced in wc3

[Deleted]

Because they have nothing to do with each other beyond the most superficial similarities. Do you even follow the lore here?
And yet they come, in droves, they are legion, offering such informed commentary.

Why not do the same for Warriors and paladins?

Where do you draw the line and why?

Because Paladins are based upon a strong and deeprooted dogma, have history that differs them from Warriors, and apply themselves in a much different manner.

Meanwhile, Warlocks and Demon Hunters fall into the same archtype of using fire against fire, use mostly the same power sources and even share ability trade.

[Yig]

Taking your delusional defense and ignoring it because if we go "But it's all just numbers n' button art" then we can throw out the Demon Hunter concept anyway.

How is a hypothetical idea in any way a defense?
You didn't answer my questions.

You can play this semantic game with every class in the game, and every class that ever will be in the game. In the end all we have is ranged dps and melee dps and healing. Tanks, DPS, healers. Ranged, Melee.

The whole trick here is in how much of any one thing you do and how much of any one thing you don't do, and how to make doing the same things feel new. You're blind to this apparently. Your own point shoots yourself in the foot here. And you proclaim your opinion as fact, bravo.

What brings anything to the table at all and why?

What anything brings to the table will be how fun it is to do what it's doing and how it feels to be doing what's it doing. Not if as you're trying to make it seem here that on paper the description of what it's doing is exactly the same thing. Compare how the same classes feel in Diablo 3 to WOW just for starters. It's not a 1:1 format to compare, but it makes the point. A barbarian in D3 is basically doing everything a warrior does in WOW, but it feels incredibly visceral and totally brand new. The howling, the satisfying crunch of bone and tissue and the waves of enemies ground up in the meat grinder that is your blade.

Compared Illidan in Heroes of the Storm to Warcraft 3. Compare anyone in Heroes of the Storm to their former incarnations.
Compare casting a fireball with a mage and casting a fireball with a warlock.

Get something fucking straight here. You can have something doing the same essential basic thing when you write down "swings sword around" on paper but execute it in a brand new way that makes it feel brand new and 10 times more fun based on this thing called nuance and execution.

Dots are just dots. But watching your enemy scream as his head slowly boils and expands and then explodes dramatically is totally different than watching negative numbers tick off until his auto death animation plays.

EXECUTION IS EVERYTHING

Name a single class concept that brings something new to the table here and why it's new. It's all the same stuff dressed up in novel ways, with more tactile and visceral sound DX and solid distinct animations.

The recourse mechanic is really key to WOW's classes and how new they feel. It's a minigame. Mana upkeep, runes, rage, energy.
Every class has a game within a game in this glorified slot machine we call and RPG. What makes it more than a slot machine? A world, avatars you can move around like a puppet in a place shared with other humans.

Your own argument makes every future and past class in this game null and void.

I can't show you anything without animating and designing something live in game here, this is absurd.
You ignore every point here but the ones you feel like addressing. This makes it seem like you're not here to discuss anything, you're here to assert your opinions and tell other people they are wrong.

I'm the first to admit there are good reasons demon hunter won't happen. But the issue is not as simple as you'r capable of portraying it.

At least you appreciate a good dwarf, mate.

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I doubt we will ever see Demon hunters for 2 reasons.
One being that we need a new range class, as it stands right now, hunter is the only "Physical" ranged class, and they have 0 competition when it comes to Weapons.
And two, No they cant be a ranged class because diablo 3 DH are ranged, why? because Warcraft Demon hunters, have always been a melee class since introduced in wc3

People said the same thing after DKs. Then we got Monks. Blizzard clearly isn't doing things based on what's needed in the way people deduce.

[Deleted]

How is a hypothetical idea in any way a defense?
You didn't answer my questions.


Your own argument makes every future and past class in this game null and void.

I can't show you anything without animating and designing something live in game here, this is absurd.
You ignore every point here but the ones you feel like addressing. This makes it seem like you're not here to discuss anything, you're here to assert your opinions and tell other people they are wrong.

I'm the first to admit there are good reasons demon hunter won't happen. But the issue is not as simple as you'r capable of portraying it.

At least you appreciate a good dwarf, mate.

I disregard your arguments because they are the same old arguments in every single Demon Hunter, High Elve or "Night Elves need to be badass boo hoo" thread.

Your opinion won't change, you'll go through vast circles of logic to try and make what you say make sense, the current one here being "It's all about execution" to avoid facing the fact that Applying Demon Hunter's into the game REMOVES from another class and it's design role. Period. No matter how you scream EXECUTION, the Demon Hunter class will be stepping on the toes of Warlocks, Demonology ones especially. No matter what countless threads pop up to try and reinvent the wheel and polish up the concept. The Demon Hunter's abilties have be applied to the Warlock. Demon Hunter's transformed, Demonology Warlocks Transform.

They even use a reskinned Illidan for fuck sake.

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People said the same thing after DKs. Then we got Monks. Blizzard clearly isn't doing things based on what's needed in the way people deduce.

Deathknights added something new with adverse gameplay mechanics. As did Monks. Demon Hunters cannot.

[Yig]

Because Paladins are based upon a strong and deeprooted dogma, have history that differs them from Warriors, and apply themselves in a much different manner.

Meanwhile, Warlocks and Demon Hunters fall into the same archtype of using fire against fire, use mostly the same power sources and even share ability trade.

At this point, demon hunters are based on Warcraft 3 Night Elves with a hatred of demons so intense, a hatred that once in lore was so racially intense that any night elf would have killed a warlock on sight, that they forfeit their immortal soul just for the chance to kill what they hate most, be it for revenge or for the protection of their people. They are martyrs.

Warlocks are a spectrum of individuals of many races, from scholars with curiosity in the occult to magi who wish to learn more powerful and forbidden spells.

They are nothing alike. The Demon Hunter sacrifices his eyes and his soul for his power and come from the most elite warriors in their society. The Warlock is a glorified librarian or ethically questionable magic user along with a spectrum of different motivations.

You are doing nothing but playing games with context, using what supports your opinions and disregarding what doesn't.

Demon Hunters are absolutely rooted in a strong and deep rooted dogma. They cut out their own eyes in a ritualized blinding and bind a demon to their soul.
This is just arbitrary, pick a frame of reference after you get informed of the lore you're addressing.

[Deleted]

At this point, demon hunters are based on Warcraft 3 Night Elves with a hatred of demons so intense, a hatred that once in lore was so racially intense that any night elf would have killed a warlock on sight, that they forfeit their immortal soul just for the chance to kill what they hate most, be it for revenge or for the protection of their people. They are martyrs.

Warlocks are a spectrum of individuals of many races, from scholars with curiosity in the occult to magi who wish to learn more powerful and forbidden spells.

They are nothing alike. The Demon Hunter sacrifices his eyes and his soul for his power and come from the most elite warriors in their society. The Warlock is a glorified librarian or ethically questionable magic user along with a spectrum of different motivations.

You are doing nothing but playing games with context, using what supports your opinions and disregarding what doesn't.

Demon Hunters are absolutely rooted in a strong and deep rooted dogma. They cut out their own eyes in a ritualized blinding and bind a demon to their soul.
This is just arbitrary, pick a frame of reference after you get informed of the lore you're addressing.

Demon Hunter Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic.

Warlock Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic.

That is it. That is exactly what they BOTH are. You talk about execution but you just dance around the idea that they both hazard channel the power of Fel magic.

You could make Night Elf Warlocks and use Demon Hunter's as their backstory. It's basically the same as Dwarf Shamans, Troll Druids or Tauren Paladins.

[Thimagryn]

Taking your delusional defense and ignoring it because if we go "But it's all just numbers n' button art" then we can throw out the Demon Hunter concept anyway.

While gameplay is how Blizzard prioritizes class design, it's important to note that lore is where they derive their identities. It's what tells us Paladins are actually different from Priests and Warriors. Gameplay-wise, Paladins are not much more than Priest-Warrior hybrids with special mechanics that could be retrofitted into Priest or Warrior classes. Demon hunters retain a very unique role in lore, one that bears the potential for growth beyond 'Melee Warlocks'.

What did Death Knights and Monks bring to the table? Nothing that couldn't be given to existing classes. Necromancy could be given to Shadow Priests. Martial Arts could have been given to Rogues or Shamans. Everything that was given to a new class was designed from the ground up for the purpose of a new class. To view a potential Demon Hunter in any other way is to dodge the topic of a new class and revert to strawman arguments about hybrids of existing classes.

Demon Hunter Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic.

Warlock Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic.

Fel Magic is literally magic that consumes the essence of life. Anyone who uses Fel magic is making some kind of sacrifice. This was explained in the (canon) WoW comics as well as by the Blizzard loremasters themselves. What you're doing is just describing two classes that use the same type of magic in the broadest sense. No different than saying 'Mages use Fire, Shamans use Fire'.

There are many things they can bring to the table that aren't already a part of existing classes. Themes of Spellbreaking, Vengeance, Arcane Rune mastery, Spectral Sight and the use of Blue Flames (TBC Illidan abilities + icons) are all aspects of Demon Hunters. They're just as important as all the familiar aspects we recognize, like their use of Fel magic, Demon Transformation and Warglaives. The only differences we have are in perspective.

There is no wrong answer here. Demon Hunters having nothing to offer is simply a matter of perspective. It's simply a narrow one that focuses on what we see instead of what we know.

[Deleted]

Demon Hunter Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic. To save their people - selfless.

Warlock Sacrifices himself for the Power of Fel Magic for their own gain, to become as powerful as possible - selfish.

You left out a couple of details but it's mostly right.

[Deleted]

You left out a couple of details but it's mostly right.

Purely Thematic. There are Paladins out to defend people and there are Paladins out to purge what they see is evil.

Do we need two classes for that now?

[Yig]

I disregard your arguments because they are the same old arguments in every single Demon Hunter, High Elve or "Night Elves need to be badass boo hoo" thread.

Your opinion won't change, you'll go through vast circles of logic to try and make what you say make sense, the current one here being "It's all about execution" to avoid facing the fact that Applying Demon Hunter's into the game REMOVES from another class and it's design role. Period. No matter how you scream EXECUTION, the Demon Hunter class will be stepping on the toes of Warlocks, Demonology ones especially. No matter what countless threads pop up to try and reinvent the wheel and polish up the concept. The Demon Hunter's abilties have be applied to the Warlock. Demon Hunter's transformed, Demonology Warlocks Transform.

They even use a reskinned Illidan for fuck sake.

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Deathknights added something new with adverse gameplay mechanics. As did Monks. Demon Hunters cannot.

Again, your own arguments defeat your own points. And now you're being hostile reactionary and confrontational.
Despite your arrogant hubris and proclamations, I can make every argument against the demon hunter there is.
Your objections are just absurd and arbitrary.

DK's in WC3 offered nothing new to gameplay mechanics. Every ability they had in WC3 had an equivalent in WOW. So they were given new gameplay mechanics that were "death knight-y".

You are making this up as you go along. You are not even capable of hypothetically exploring the arguments against your own points it's clear.
Your entire argument is that new things cannot be introduced mechanic wise that feel "demon hunter-y" but that new things could be introduced that felt "death knight-y". And monks? Monks are a brand new class with one spec based on a hero unit again expanded based on what felt "brew master-y".

Demon Hunters have great reasons for never happening. But you are completely stunted and mired in your own sterile opinions when it comes to discussing something which is so dependent upon aesthetics. You demonstrate you don't even understand what a demon hunter classically has been by claiming Paladins have strong and deep roots in dogma.

That's all a demon hunter is. And you think this is in any way contrary? But now you claim this makes them redundant for being the same when you originally used it as a distinction. That seems intellectually dishonest. Come back when you have a clue.

Every accusation of circular logic here is just projection. Your mind is made up, and you're just here to proclaim your conclusions. Have fun with that, chap.

[Spalding]

Because they have nothing to do with each other beyond the most superficial similarities. Do you even follow the lore here?
And yet they come, in droves, they are legion, offering such informed commentary.

Why not do the same for Warriors and paladins?

Where do you draw the line and why?

just don't care enough for DH's on WoW.

[Deleted]

While gameplay is how Blizzard prioritizes class design, it's important to note that lore is where they derive their identities. It's what tells us Paladins are actually different from Priests and Warriors. Gameplay-wise, Paladins are not much more than Priest-Warrior hybrids with special mechanics that could be retrofitted into Priest or Warrior classes. Demon hunters retain a very unique role in lore, one that bears the potential for growth beyond 'Melee Warlocks'.

What did Death Knights and Monks bring to the table? Nothing that couldn't be given to existing classes. Necromancy could be given to Shadow Priests. Martial Arts could have been given to Rogues or Shamans. Everything that was given to a new class was designed from the ground up for the purpose of a new class. To view a potential Demon Hunter in any other way is to dodge the topic of a new class and revert to strawman arguments about hybrids of existing classes.

Death Knights - Semi ranged Melee Caster, Pull mechanics. Rune resource type.

Monks - Melee Healing through attacks, None standard healing, Mobility without direct interaction.

What can Demon Hunter's Bring?

[Yig]

just don't care enough for DH's on WoW.

Exactly. This makes a discussion fairly pointless, you just don't appreciate something others do.

[Deleted]

Again, your own arguments defeat your own points. And now you're being hostile reactionary and confrontational.
Despite your arrogant hubris and proclomations, I can make every argument against the demon hunter there is.
You're objections are just absurd and arbitrary.

Every accusation of circular logic here is just projection. Your mind is made up, and you're just here to proclaim your conclusions. Have fun with that, chap.

So, my argument defeats my points.... because you say they do and I am projecting? Go play a Deathknight, Go play a Monk. They have had their class fleshed out, from several different design schools and several different units to reflect upon from Warcraft 3 to be used. I'll just show you my argument in full and laugh at how you try to work around here, You ready?

The Death Knight class isn't just the Death Knight Hero. It's for all intents and purposes, the "Scourge" Hero. It draws not just from the Deathknight hero from Warcraft 3, but many of the different units the scourge had and many of it's designs reflect them. Especially during conception. It had an extremely wide berth in terms of what it could do from these units, and they translated well into a very distinct class.

Now the Monk itself isn't based on alot of Warcraft 3 units, only one. But instead it draws upon real world influences to fill out the concept beyond "Brewmaster" Using Chinese Chi philopshy, combined with the four Beasts of Chinese legend alongside Medical brewing, It made very distinct and workable playstyles.

Now tell me, How can you do this with Demon Hunters?

[Thimagryn]

Death Knights - Semi ranged Melee Caster, Pull mechanics. Rune resource type.

Monks - Melee Healing through attacks, None standard healing, Mobility without direct interaction.

What can Demon Hunter's Bring?

Why don't you actually read Arberian's concept and find out for yourself? You're talking in his thread.

Every class in WoW only needs to represent the Warcraft 3 identity through one spec. This leaves 2 specs that can act independently with its own themes or identity. Frost DK's are basically melee Liches. Blood DK's are basically Dread Lords. Mistweaver and Windwalker don't even have any relevancy to Brewmasters at all. They're only tied to the Monk class on the basis of class mechanics and a loose Martial Arts theme.

What do Demon Hunters have? Unique lore that can not be replicated by any other class; as well as the limitless potential to branch into any role using an appropriate core-class. The Monk class is how we got a healer spec out of Brewmasters, who lacked healing.

[Yig]

So, my argument defeats my points.... because you say they do and I am projecting? Go play a Deathknight, Go play a Monk. They have had their class fleshed out, from several different design schools and several different units to reflect upon from Warcraft 3 to be used. I'll just show you my argument in full and laugh at how you try to work around here, You ready?

The Death Knight class isn't just the Death Knight Hero. It's for all intents and purposes, the "Scourge" Hero. It draws not just from the Deathknight hero from Warcraft 3, but many of the different units the scourge had and many of it's designs reflect them. Especially during conception. It had an extremely wide berth in terms of what it could do from these units, and they translated well into a very distinct class.

Now the Monk itself isn't based on alot of Warcraft 3 units, only one. But instead it draws upon real world influences to fill out the concept beyond "Brewmaster" Using Chinese Chi philopshy, combined with the four Beasts of Chinese legend alongside Medical brewing, It made very distinct and workable playstyles.

Now tell me, How can you do this with Demon Hunters?

The sky is in many ways the limit, and without me showing you fully animated and realized ideas, there's nothing for you here but target practice.

[Deleted]

Certainly a lot of effort went into that post, no doubt.

The little bit that I quoted got my attention. What exactly is "a high" number. Can you literally put a number or even a survey to this?

Because..you know...they guys who HAVE numbers (Blizzard, wink, wink, nudge, nudge) said that Pandaren were the most popular request as a playable race ever since Classic, so popular that they almost made it into the very first x-pac....to which this forum went "Bullshit...and they are childish"

So much for what players want...

Blizzard can claim whatever they want, by saying they have "the numbers", and "have done surveys".
Have you seen said survey? I never saw it. As far as I know, that survey could possibly never exist, who knows.

But I understand your point. We should never say we represent the majority's opinion without showing numbers that back our claims.

[Deleted]

Why don't you actually read Arberian's concept and find out for yourself? You're talking in his thread.

I've read it, it falls into every pit trap the Demon Hunter "Designers" fall into. They didn't expand anything, not really, they added things sure, but "Void stance" and "Dark n' edgy strike" are not expansions upon the concept, they merely add filler. I mean fuck, the guy added Glaives.

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The sky is in many ways the limit, and without me showing you fully animated and realized ideas, there's nothing for you here but target practice.

So you can't think of anything, At all, To expand Demon Hunter's with? Exactly my point.