BM 4 piece vs non tier piece

[Asphyxiate9]

How important is that 4 piece tier bonus for BM monks? I got an upgrade yesterday which would mean I'd no longer have the bonus and have been testing with it off but i'm having a hard time seeing a difference since healers make it pretty unnoticeable from my experience so far.

[jazzyy]

25 Man is a big deal. 10 Man is meh. You'd only really benefit if you're constantly <70% health just to make sure it's not wasted.

[Totaltotemic]

If you never die when tanking anyways you wouldn't notice the loss of ~8k effective mastery that the 4p provides anyways. Keep in mind the 4p essentially takes 15% of your Stagger amount (if you have 20% mastery you're at 60% Stagger, or 9% effective extra provided by the bonus) and gives it back to you as healing, which is really just post-damage reduction.

Really though, what would you gain from HWF that you don't get from tier? The Agility and Stamina is negligible and the huge amounts of effective mastery are more than the ~1500 extra secondary stats you'd get from having 4 pieces that are 6 ilvls higher. If literally all you care about is damage the HWF would probably be better but if you're putting mastery on your gear at all the tier is generally the best.

[Tech614]

The 4 piece is borderline worthless until Malkorak heroic on 10 man heroic. Malk, Thok, Paragons and Garrosh it's pretty good. The rest of the fights the heal is pretty irrelevant as the burst damage is magic(juggernaut) or you are topped for almost the entire fight(every other of the first 8 bosses).

[Totaltotemic]

The 4 piece is borderline worthless until Malkorak heroic on 10 man heroic. Malk, Thok, Paragons and Garrosh it's pretty good. The rest of the fights the heal is pretty irrelevant as the burst damage is magic(juggernaut) or you are topped for almost the entire fight(every other of the first 8 bosses).

It's worthless on 10 man because 10 man tanks take no damage and don't need any mastery. I would think it would be extremely obvious that if you don't need more survivability that a survival-oriented set bonus would be worthless.

If you actually put mastery on your gear though it's by far the best way to get it. The fact that it's a heal is pretty irrelevant unless you're getting dropped from 35+% in 1 hit because you can always Expel Harm and purify immediately. In actuality it's just as good as its worth in mastery.

[Viradiance]

Only 7/14 heroic (8-9 tomorrow hopefully!) right now but it seems pretty pitifully worthless. I'm considering dropping two pieces of non-heroic T16 for some heroic offpieces I've gotten the last few days.

How important is that 4 piece tier bonus for BM monks? I got an upgrade yesterday which would mean I'd no longer have the bonus and have been testing with it off but i'm having a hard time seeing a difference since healers make it pretty unnoticeable from my experience so far.

Might wanna link your armory or give more explanation though.

Are you going from, say, Flex tier to a Normal drop? Normal tier to a heroic drop? Or like, Normal tier to Normal Warforged?

Really depends on how big the upgrade is. I'd say if it's as something as big as Normal -> Heroic go ahead and replace the tier.

[Tech614]

It's worthless on 10 man because 10 man tanks take no damage and don't need any mastery. I would think it would be extremely obvious that if you don't need more survivability that a survival-oriented set bonus would be worthless.

If you actually put mastery on your gear though it's by far the best way to get it. The fact that it's a heal is pretty irrelevant unless you're getting dropped from 35+% in 1 hit because you can always Expel Harm and purify immediately. In actuality it's just as good as its worth in mastery.

It doesn't matter how much mastery you have, if the heal is over heal it's worthless. This notion that it scales with mastery is flawed at best, it does but you need to actually be taking large amounts of damage for that scaling to be worth anything. The 4 piece is good on the 4 most extreme cases of damage you take this tier, and pretty worthless every where else.

The notion that 10 man tanks don't need mastery is also flawed, you most certainly did need mastery if you where tanking Thok or Paragon's heroic in 550s ilvl. Again, some of the most extreme damage you take this tier, and yes the 4 piece is valuable here. When you are tanking Sha of Pride it doesn't matter if you stacked mastery for whatever flawed reason, the heal was still worthless.

[Totaltotemic]

It doesn't matter how much mastery you have, if the heal is over heal it's worthless. This notion that it scales with mastery is flawed at best, it does but you need to actually be taking large amounts of damage for that scaling to be worth anything. The 4 piece is good on the 4 most extreme cases of damage you take this tier, and pretty worthless every where else.

The notion that 10 man tanks don't need mastery is also flawed, you most certainly did need mastery if you where tanking Thok or Paragon's heroic in 550s ilvl. Again, some of the most extreme damage you take this tier, and yes the 4 piece is valuable here. When you are tanking Sha of Pride it doesn't matter if you stacked mastery for whatever flawed reason, the heal was still worthless.

If you're using PB without red stagger and at full health you're doing it wrong anyways. Not really sure how overheal is relevant, you obviously don't need the damage reduction if you're at 100% health. It scales with mastery, period. Mastery increases stagger amount, it heals for a portion of stagger amount, therefore it increases with mastery. Saying otherwise is worse than "flawed at best", it's just wrong.

[Tech614]

If you're using PB without red stagger and at full health you're doing it wrong anyways. Not really sure how overheal is relevant, you obviously don't need the damage reduction if you're at 100% health. It scales with mastery, period. Mastery increases stagger amount, it heals for a portion of stagger amount, therefore it increases with mastery. Saying otherwise is worse than "flawed at best", it's just wrong.

Except for those times when you are at a red stagger yet hots and static raid healing are still keeping you topped... which is almost every boss in Siege. I can't remember the last time I even used purify on one of first 8 in the instance, most of the time the red stagger drops by itself back to a yellow. If the heal is over heal it's worthless, that is a fact and it doesn't matter how much mastery you have.

[Totaltotemic]

Except for those times when you are at a red stagger yet hots and static raid healing are still keeping you topped... which is almost every boss in Siege. I can't remember the last time I even used purify on one of first 8 in the instance, most of the time the red stagger drops by itself back to a yellow. If the heal is over heal it's worthless, that is a fact and it doesn't matter how much mastery you have.

Wouldn't that then also make any form of survivability worthless, and considering tank tier bonuses always are about survivability and not damage, any tier bonus imaginable would be "worthless" in that situation? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, of course taking less damage doesn't mean much if you're no where near being in danger of dying. However, if you value mastery on your gear at all, you're better off using tier pieces instead and reforging that mastery to crit or switching gems so you're not using any mastery gems. The only reason to not use the 4p bonus is if you're stacking crit to absolutely ridiculous levels and do not care at all about having mastery. I have said that in every post I've made in this thread, so I'm really not sure what you think still needs to be said. It seems like you're trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

[Tech614]

Wouldn't that then also make any form of survivability worthless, and considering tank tier bonuses always are about survivability and not damage, any tier bonus imaginable would be "worthless" in that situation? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make, of course taking less damage doesn't mean much if you're no where near being in danger of dying. However, if you value mastery on your gear at all, you're better off using tier pieces instead and reforging that mastery to crit or switching gems so you're not using any mastery gems. The only reason to not use the 4p bonus is if you're stacking crit to absolutely ridiculous levels and do not care at all about having mastery. I have said that in every post I've made in this thread, so I'm really not sure what you think still needs to be said. It seems like you're trying to argue for the sake of arguing.

Actually, I'm simply stating you should gear to optimize your dps until you need to survive, which is 3-4 bosses in the entire instance. Wasted survival is 100% worthless to the raid, there is no such thing as wasted dps. The set pieces are terribly optimized, over loaded with haste so you should only be using it in situations where that heal is going to be significant, which is Malkorak, Thok, Paragons and Garrosh. That is it. Every other bosses benefits from optimizing your dps more.

[allaiva]

Actually, I'm simply stating you should gear to optimize your dps until you need to survive, which is 3-4 bosses in the entire instance. Wasted survival is 100% worthless to the raid, there is no such thing as wasted dps. The set pieces are terribly optimized, over loaded with haste so you should only be using it in situations where that heal is going to be significant, which is Malkorak, Thok, Paragons and Garrosh. That is it. Every other bosses benefits from optimizing your dps more.

You're arguing to what amounts as probably 0.5% extra dps at best against a substantial heal when needed if used correctly and an extra cushion at least if not used correctly...
People need to learn that the extra stats and agi provided by a few ilvl points are much less important for BrM dps than what is provided by vengeance.

IMO, keep the tier if it's only a +Warforged increase. Anything else you'd have to weigh how much of your secondary stats you're gaining etc, but odds are tier is probably still a better option unless it's some LFR/Flex to Heroic upgrade. *shrugs*

[Tech614]

You're arguing to what amounts as probably 0.5% extra dps at best against a substantial heal when needed if used correctly and an extra cushion at least if not used correctly...
People need to learn that the extra stats and agi provided by a few ilvl points are much less important for BrM dps than what is provided by vengeance.

IMO, keep the tier if it's only a +Warforged increase. Anything else you'd have to weigh how much of your secondary stats you're gaining etc, but odds are tier is probably still a better option unless it's some LFR/Flex to Heroic upgrade. *shrugs*

Again, this substantial heal bs is only true on the 4 hardest hitting fights on the tier. The only fight in the first 8 that even benefits from any extra healing at all is Juggernaut, and the heal is pitiful on that fight as the actual stagger amount is a joke outside of a 6 second cheese every time Avert Harm is up. Every other fight if you need *any* extra healing at all you are doing it very wrong, if a healer has to cast a direct heal on you in any fight but Juggernaut in the first 8 you are doing it very, very wrong.

I'm all for using the set bonuses on the fights it is actually useful on, that doesn't mean I will suggest people itemize over it when I have no clue where their progression is and it is 100% worthless on the first 8. You should gear item level and stat optimization when you aren't coming close to dying that is a fact.

[Octa]

Again, this substantial heal bs is only true on the 4 hardest hitting fights on the tier. The only fight in the first 8 that even benefits from any extra healing at all is Juggernaut, and the heal is pitiful on that fight as the actual stagger amount is a joke outside of a 6 second cheese every time Avert Harm is up. Every other fight if you need *any* extra healing at all you are doing it very wrong, if a healer has to cast a direct heal on you in any fight but Juggernaut in the first 8 you are doing it very, very wrong.

I'm all for using the set bonuses on the fights it is actually useful on, that doesn't mean I will suggest people itemize over it when I have no clue where their progression is and it is 100% worthless on the first 8. You should gear item level and stat optimization when you aren't coming close to dying that is a fact.

If people are still progressing on the first 8 it is likely that for them the heal is FAR from 100% worthless, even on those bosses. Something that needs to be taken into consideration. You said you don't know their progression, etc etc so clearly you know something about talking to your target audience. Think you're missing a big part of it though. If these people are very skilled and playing with others who are very skilled, those first 8-10 are already dead.

[Deleted]

I've been using the 4p going through most of normal and currently testing our metal against 7/14hc. Killed Juggernaught second time last night, but i gotta be honest, as a semi-casual raiding 10m with a bunch of friends... the 4p is really weak. Im at 571 ilvl atm but i plan to drop 2 tier pieces for heroic non-sets as soon as possible. During bosses I make some effort timing Healing Elixirs, Glyphed guard+expel harms/chi wave etc and checking logs afterwards from our first Juggernaught HC kill (last week) the healing from the 4p is pretty much worthless.

Chi Wave 8439050 29.6 %
Guard 5690934 19.9 %
Expel Harm 4910760 17.2 %
Healing Sphere 3614149 12.7 %
Guard (statue) 3295345 11.5 %
Gift of the Ox 965365 3.4 %
Healthstone 678635 2.4 % (1x hit)
Purified Healing 560177 2.0 % (12x hits) <---------- 560k over 12 Purifies, 4-6 probably came in the air after bombs with Expel+Purify
Protection of Niuzao 377042 1.3 % (10x hits)

I'd say it's worth holding onto the 2p since it's a shield and won't overheal, + it syncs up nicely with high damage fights like Protectors, Galakras and probably a few of the later bosses too. But the 4p can be dropped right away in 10m (It's outhealed by one single healthstone against a first kill of a heoric boss, that being said since this was our first kill i ran double stamina trinkets and the tank cloak to avoid silly mistakes so the 2p healing and the number of guards could've been a lot higher. But since dps was fine and we alt-healed we decided to tank it safe).

Other side of the coin a lot of damage on Juggernaught is spelldamage and bosses like Malorok or Thok heroic can probably warrant using the 4p in some situations (heroics ofc), but even then with high stagger pools most people argue that floating 60-80k dots is ok as long as healing keeps up. So in short, I'd say drop the 4p unless you're seeing those close-to-100k stagger pools and feel healing is an issue.

[allaiva]

so 2% healing overall, and when used properly it's a good cushion, versus a 1% gain of all secondary stat points, 1% additional agi, and 1% stam... to which will probably increase your dps or whatever by maybe 0.5%. I don't see the reasoning behind this. And this is going from a normal piece to a heroic piece. Going to +WF is even less of a bonus. I'm not trying to argue the case that the 4pc is amazing, most of the time it's mediocre at best, but I'm trying to suggest that the gain in stats just isn't significant enough to lose even a moderately useful bonus as far as tanking goes.

[Promdates]

You also say you want to keep the 2p, yet it did less overall healing than the 4p did. Just pointing out that the general consensus is the 2p is very mediocre/terrible. The benefit of going with the 4p is really noticable with higher mastery, allowing you to have higher ticks and higher healing from the dot, which also allows you to take less up front damage.

You did also only mention it on IJ, where the deathly abilities are bombs (physical, mitigated by mastery/guard/dampen harm) and the ignite tick (magical/fire, mitigated by guard/diffuse magic). The problem is the majority of the bosses are going to be a magical ability that's going to kill you (or just burst you). There's only 3 -5 I can think of where you'll take a lot of physical damage depending on the fight.

In 10s tho, 4p is semi-optional depending on playstyle. In 25s, there's no way I would go without it. But if I really had the option, it would be 0p or 4p, never 2p.

[Totaltotemic]

I think there's a little bit of confusion here so I'll try to clear it up.

The 4p bonus is only as valuable to you as mastery is. Some fights, mastery does almost nothing because it does not block magic damage. If you take something that is worth 15% of your Stagger in mastery, it too will do almost nothing when magic damage is rampant. Therefore, if you have more than about 6k mastery on your gear, it makes no sense to disregard the 4p. If it was "worthless" to you that often, then realistically you would be reforging off al mastery on your gear and gemming pure crit. This is exactly the same as all 4 previous tier bonuses as well as the T16 2p which provides even less mitigation than the 4p does. There should not need to be a conversation about whether or not tier provides mitigation and HWF provides DPS because that's implicit in the very nature of having a tank-specific tier set. However, if you are gearing for mastery and still saying the 4p bonus sucks, that just means you're being very hypocritical and literally saying that mastery is good but mastery sucks.

[RuneeBH]

The 4pc don't do much in 10m. I'm gearing away from it. Immerseus helm/juggernaut shoulders/tier chest/norushen gloves/ and dark sham or tier legs. So you can essentially get your 2 piece cause they're itemized nicely(chest/legs), but really both tier bonuses are pretty lame. I wouldn't go nuts over getting them.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm speaking just from a full crit 10h PoV though, so just giving my opinion and experience (11/14h)

[xinjun]

Little bit older thread here but I was wondering... I have been lucky enough to get every single item (except from trinkets) Warforged and even a Heroic Warforged helm. I am currently using all of these pieces and 0 tier. I've recently switched from tanking 10 mans to 25 mans. No 25 man Hmodes yet but should hopefully be getting into some of those very soon...

Should I be at all concerned about my tier? I have redundant tier tokens in my bank so I think I can have 4pc easily... I switched off of the tier when I saw that each bonus was healing me for around 500,000 per fight which seemed very negligible to me. However, if I should start gearing more mastery for my 25s, I may want them more?

Thoughts?