0.23% of Players Defeated Heroic Garrosh

[Pann]

Well, what on earth is wrong with that if they are happy with other aspects of the game? This is what the game was built on, raiding. You suddenly remove raiding and you have at least 40% of the player base not doing what they usually do and pay for, larger than any other segment of the game I imagine.

Almost half the player base have left the game in little over three years and over half of those have been lost in the last year where there has been very little to do outside of raiding which clearly indicates that players are not happy with both raiding and other aspects. Outside of LFR the number of raiders for any boss is not higher than 34% of the accounts polled and the poll clearly shows that all levels of raid difficulties are not holding players interests. Although I don't think this is a reason to remove raiding it certainly is an indication that raiding should not be the primary focus when creating content.

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Well, what is your idea? Removing raiding from the game? What would take its place?

If I knew how to fix WOW I would either be working for Blizzard or have my own multimillion player MMO. But on a serious note there needs to be less focus on raiding and more on casual friendly content.

[Firebert]

Well, what on earth is wrong with that if they are happy with other aspects of the game? This is what the game was built on, raiding. You suddenly remove raiding

I'm not suggesting removing raiding, I'm suggesting they make the raids easier across the board.

[Duridi]

If raiders only raid for the challenge then why once they have beaten the challenge do they need to run the content again? If the gear rewards were removed from raiding it would die within weeks.

Achievements are without doubt a factor but players were repeating raids multiple times in Classic and TBC before their introduction which leads us to the common factor throughout WOW's lifetime - gear. You may point to rep but increasing reputations, when current, once again lead to rewards that are either actual gear or increase the power of player's gear through enchants or gems. Once you boil everything down the majority of max level activities offer rewards that either directly award gear, allow extra ways to acquire gear or increase the power of a player's existing gear. Even pet battles, one of the most casual in activities, awards charms thats only use is to turn in for extra rolls for gear.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to improve your character and the primary way of doing so in WOW is through gear.

You are still narrowing it down way too much. Rewards are fun, undoubtfully, but they don't work alone(heck, I find it exciting finding random useless chests in the outdoor world). If they did, we could strip this game down quite a lot, and we certainly would not be needing 3-4 different difficulties/functions for people to be willing and able to put their effort into raiding. People may do things they don't enjoy from time to time to obtain a piece of gear or something else, but they won't last very long if nothing else can pull their interest in the process. And that other thing, or those other things, has to be about equally, or a stronger motivator.

The more you get from doing something, the more rewarding the full experience feels. When you enter a raid instance for the first time, you have a whole book of personal satisfaction to gain. As you continue running the raid, you slowly move towards personal completion of all the experiences that specific instance can give you. Since gear is an RNG based reward unlike the rest of the rewards from raiding, it will likely be the last thing you'll finish in that instance. The fact that it usually ends up the last thing you do in there, might make it seem like everyone is doing it solely for gear. Most of the time spent getting gear, is usually also time spent progressing on bosses and simply enjoying the instance. This cuts down the time at the end which might feel tideous and boring because the only thing you are after, are those last pieces of usefull gear for your team. Making it bareable. It's a guild dependant how this process goes, as people progress at different speed. Usually people find guilds where they feel the speed of these things goes hand in hand with what they find acceptable for themselves. If they aren't happy with how progression is going, they either change guild, quit raiding, or quit entirely from my experience. I have never seen anyone last very long in a place they didn't feel they could support. Then gear won't help motivate them at all.

As I said, you can focus on gear solely for short periods. Most can, but if nothing else drives you, gear will quickly lose it's value.

[Firebert]

Although I don't think this is a reason to remove raiding it certainly is an indication that raiding should not be the primary focus when creating content.

Or this.

We should see what the figures are like at the end of the expansion.

[Raiju]

Almost half the player base have left the game in little over three years and over half of those have been lost in the last year where there has been very little to do outside of raiding which clearly indicates that players are not happy with both raiding and other aspects. Outside of LFR the number of raiders for any boss is not higher than 34% of the accounts polled and the poll clearly shows that all levels of raid difficulties are not holding players interests. Although I don't think this is a reason to remove raiding it certainly is an indication that raiding should not be the primary focus when creating content.

Most of an expansions work is non raid content, in MoP less than half the patch content was raids along with tons of new features for non raiders.

Instead of saying its all wrong etc. and being vague, how about actually being specific about something and giving an example of what should be changed? as of 3 years ago they've already been aiming more content at non-raiders.

@Firebert I disagree, The flex line is deflated and I believe it will be higher next expansion when it's considered a more legitimate difficulty.

[Deleted]

I think the important statistic is on the front page.

Heroic Garrosh has been defeated by 3.4% of the heroic raid population (= players that killed at least H Immerseus).

Siegecrafter which is currently blocking many guilds (currently at 8.7%) will be >10 by the end of next month and in 2 or 3 months the same will happen to Garrosh.

I think that ~10% of the heroic raid population (before 20% nerf) is a good number to aim for and Blizzard is yet again well on track (christmas + new years was a little bump in the progression road but that was expected).

After 20% nerf and before WoD I expect around 30-50% of heroic raiders to be able to kill H Garrosh which again would be good numbers (imo).

As to anyone complaining that the overall numbers for heroic raiding are too low ... well heroic raiding isn't meant for everyone and complaining about the difficulty of the very last boss is silly if you don't even take part in the feature as a whole.

[Pann]

...and we certainly would not be needing 3-4 different difficulties/functions for people to be willing and able to put their effort into raiding...

When less a fifth of players even start the two highest difficulties you could argue whether those difficulties are needed and whether the time and effort involved could be better spent elsewhere.

[Raiju]

When less a fifth of players even start the two highest difficulties you could argue whether those difficulties are needed and whether the time and effort involved could be better spent elsewhere.

Number tuning takes up a few days of manhours, really. The players themselves give most of the data for that from PTR testing. Designing all the phased scenarios and artwork likely takes a LOT longer.

[Duridi]

There is nothing wrong with raiding for gear I honestly don't see why you are trying to prove otherwise.

Nobody is trying to prove that's it's wrong raiding for gear. We're trying to tell you that people range from not caring at all, to caring entirely about it. You seem to think that's the only thing that drives raiders.

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When less a fifth of players even start the two highest difficulties you could argue whether those difficulties are needed and whether the time and effort involved could be better spent elsewhere.

Yes, let's take away the content from the players who actually enjoy raiding. That's how to progress a game.

Let's instead focus on offering non-raiders more content, while raiders get to keep theirs, instead of just dealing with one or the other.

[Pann]

Most of an expansions work is non raid content, in MoP less than half the patch content was raids along with tons of new features for non raiders.

Instead of saying its all wrong etc. and being vague, how about actually being specific about something and giving an example of what should be changed? as of 3 years ago they've already been aiming more content at non-raiders.

It would appear that either we are playing different games or you do not know what content and how little there is available outside of raids. How is saying that they should focus more on casual content and less on raids vague?

[Raiju]

It would appear that either we are playing different games or you do not know what content and how little there is available outside of raids. How is saying that they should focus more on casual content and less on raids vague?

I spend the majority of my time doing non-raid content. You are still being vague and ignoring for past 2 expansion they HAVE been more focused on casual content.

[Duridi]

When less a fifth of players even start the two highest difficulties you could argue whether those difficulties are needed and whether the time and effort involved could be better spent elsewhere.

They really can't cut down on raids. It might be a niche game, but because of the nature of the playstyle, it has to be carefully created.

[kamuimac]

I spend the majority of my time doing non-raid content. You are still being vague and ignoring for past 2 expansion they HAVE been more focused on casual content.

so what u say ur spending half of play time on pet battles ? cause expet for that there was nothing else added in pve contnet - and ont bss me with hc scenarios - what hurt mop most was no new harder dungeons through tiers - in previous expansions dungeons were the out of raid pve content - now there is none zero nada nothing to do exept flex/normals on alts -_-

[Raiju]

so what u say ur spending half of play time on pet battles ? cause expet for that there was nothing else added in pve contnet - and ont bss me with hc scenarios - what hurt mop most was no new harder dungeons through tiers - in previous expansions dungeons were the out of raid pve content - now there is none zero nada nothing to do exept flex/normals on alts -_-

I spent the weekend doing entirely pet battles and archeology, yes. I tend to do a few of both along with various other non-raid content on a normal day.

[Pann]

Nobody is trying to prove that's it's wrong raiding for gear. We're trying to tell you that people range from not caring at all, to caring entirely about it. You seem to think that's the only thing that drives raiders.

Uhm, no I don't but I do think it is the primary motivator and the fact you seem so intent on proving me wrong suggests that I have hit a nerve.

Yes, let's take away the content from the players who actually enjoy raiding. That's how to progress a game.

Let's instead focus on offering non-raiders more content, while raiders get to keep theirs, instead of just dealing with one or the other.

I see plenty of posts and threads from raiders who are happy for other players to either have their reason for running content removed (see the LFR should not drop loot threads/posts), should be made too difficult for them to complete or removed altogether. Why is acceptable when it is not your demographic affected?

Blizzard have repeatedly told us they only have resources to create a certain amount of content, where are the resources for the extra content for non-raiders going to come from? The game is in bad shape, it cannot continue to lose subs at the current rate, and it makes little sense for Blizzard to continue to plough their resources making content for such a small group of players.

[Raiju]

Suddenly I'm part of the raider demographic That strawman

Let's also remember that this freefalling of subs has happened WHILE the game has been giving more content to non-raiders. The 2 are likely unrelated at this point.

[Madruga]

Although I don't think this is a reason to remove raiding it certainly is an indication that raiding should not be the primary focus when creating content.

There are other MMOs that tried to come with other formulas to raiding, and honestly, they failed. See the comments about GW2 endgame, for instance. And GW2 is free (well, actually, you pay just once). Or SWTOR endgame. Or any PVP focused MMO.

If I knew how to fix WOW I would either be working for Blizzard or have my own multimillion player MMO. But on a serious note there needs to be less focus on raiding and more on casual friendly content.

I believe WoW is already casual friendly enough... But anyhow, there is a place for plenty of casual friendly content in F2P.

If it is casual friendly, you finish it quickly enough if you don't play it casually. Who would pay a sub if you finish the content really quickly?

[Pann]

Suddenly I'm part of the raider demographic That strawman

Let's also remember that this freefalling of subs has happened WHILE the game has been giving more content to non-raiders. The 2 are likely unrelated at this point.

The past two expansions have cut the number of dungeons they have also made it much harder to obtain gear without committing to raiding. Blizzard have even said that sub losses were related to failure to engage with the casual audience but, yeah, your perception of what is happening is mostly likely correct?!?

[Osmeric]

Most of an expansions work is non raid content, in MoP less than half the patch content was raids along with tons of new features for non raiders.

Raiding (and, perhaps, CP-yielding PvP) is the only sustainable content, particularly now that VP gearing has been deemphasized. Everything else, people truly can do it and unsub and not really miss anything.

So I guess you could say the game is catering to non-raiders, but it is doing it in a way that encourages them to go elsewhere.

What would be ideal would be content that was so fun that people would keep doing it for its own sake, not because of some gated reward. Too bad Blizzard doesn't seem to have been able to continue to provide that to many players.

[Normie]

I have almost 10000 charms. I am not doing pet battles for gear.

You also seem to completely ignore (or not able to comprehend) the social element of raiding, which for many is the *main* reason to raid.

Honestly the most vocal voices on raiding on this forum would think you were being inefficient if you let your feelings or personality play any role in who you raid with.

Your friend won't reroll to FOTM? /gkick Friend, he's useless.