Does fury need an overhaul?

[Deleted]

I personally don't like how fury plays at lower crit levels, at higher ~30% it is fun and interesting to play.

[sjsctt]

I personally don't like how fury plays at lower crit levels, at higher ~30% it is fun and interesting to play.

This pretty much. During T14, execute was strong and that allowed the spec to be good. When they nerfed execute, the glyph of reck and the heroic leap glyph, that made it much worse at lower gear levels. This made fury ok during ToT, but basically killed it for CMs and lower gear levels. But, it did keep fury viable for the entire expansion for progression raiding.

[Recke]

As a side note, shouldn't Fury have more of an Arms playstyle? You know, just hitting buttons and killing stuff? "A furious berserker weilding a weapon in each hand, unleashing a flurry of attacks to carve her/his opponents to pieces" ~ Ingame Fury Spec. The concept of waiting and planning doesn't really apply to "furious berserker," where as "a battle-hardened master of two-handed weapons" would seem more appropriate to this scenario.

[Archimtiros]

As a side note, shouldn't Fury have more of an Arms playstyle? You know, just hitting buttons and killing stuff? "A furious berserker weilding a weapon in each hand, unleashing a flurry of attacks to carve her/his opponents to pieces" ~ Ingame Fury Spec. The concept of waiting and planning doesn't really apply to "furious berserker," where as "a battle-hardened master of two-handed weapons" would seem more appropriate to this scenario.

I'd tend to agree, but I don't think that is reason enough alone to push a large playstyle change when most people agree the spec is in an outstanding place.
They kind of got Arms and Fury backwards on that one. You would think Arms as the thoughtful, calculating, bursty spec; and Fury as the button smashing "who-cares-what-you-hit-as-long-as-you-hit-things" spec!

That isn't to say it doesn't have its own problems. I personally do not like Wild Strike, either its proc or baseline, and have never been a fan of Meat Cleaver, and everyone can attest to the specs randomness at lower gear levels, but as a whole it is in a great place.

Arms isn't a bad spec on the surface, it performs amazingly in its niche, that is to say sustained AoE, but has too many exact positional requirements to really be effective on more but a scant few encounters. I like to compare it to Ele Shaman (whereas Enh is more akin to Fury); but Ele doesn't suffer from the positional requirements, since Chain Lightnings jump distance is pretty forgiving. 2 yards on Slam is ridiculously small; and Sweeping Strikes isn't powerful enough to carry the torch alone. Arms single target isn't even that terrible at high gear levels, but Fury simply scales better with each piece of gear and is generally much burstier; which 90% of the time is better, especially for progression.

The second major problem, as I pointed out before; Arms is simply uninteresting. You have a variety of rotations to use, but the difference between them is so small it really doesn't matter. There isn't a lot of "min-maxing" or reward for diligent play; which gets boring quickly for most dedicated raiders. They look for these things to keep them engaged.
It also has some stupid mechanics. It's rage issues are first and foremost. Under the right conditions it is the best Cleave spec in the game; but unable to keep up that rotation without having to completely stop using rage spending abilities. That isn't fun gameplay. With the 2p this is heavily mitigated, nearly to the point of negation; but then its pretty silly you have to use your single target ability (CS) to maintain enough rage to keep up your AoE. It's a fairly small gripe, but I think its stupid. I also think Sweeping Strikes is stupid and should be a simple toggle ala Blade Flurry. Having to push this button every 10 seconds to keep up AoE is just plain dumb, I really don't understand why it can't be evolved into a toggle with or without a resource cost/hindrance as necessary for balance.
There are other things I would change if I really wanted to overhaul one or both specs, but that isn't the point of this discussion so I will abstain.

[Recke]

I'm not saying to change Fury. I just find it a little funny how the specs seem backwards. RIP Arms till the beginning of the next expac till it gets nerfed to balance pvp.

[Warriorsarri]

Just have to point out that Arms is just around 5-10% behind Fury on single target, and it's equal / ahead on AoE. Arms is a lot better than people give it credit for.

[Recke]

Just have to point out that Arms is just around 5-10% behind Fury on single target, and it's equal / ahead on AoE. Arms is a lot better than people give it credit for.

Don't get me wrong, the whole 5-10% behind means it can be usable, but anyone who is accustomed to OR wants to min/max will skip out on Arms if they have the gear to. I'm not discrediting Arms on it's own. I'm using the comparison of Arms to Fury where Fury will do better. Saying Arms is ahead on AoE would imply consistent/living AoE, which doesn't really apply to any fight except Protectors, where burst AoE from Fury would otherwise do better, or if you want to pad on Paragons.

[Mormolyce]

I think both Arms and Fury are pretty simplistic, outdated specs. I'd like a more interesting, fluid rotation personally.

[Archimtiros]

I think both Arms and Fury are pretty simplistic, outdated specs. I'd like a more interesting, fluid rotation personally.

Can't tell if troll or...

[Flalia4]

I'm not the Landsoul of warriors by any means but I figured i'd share some of my thoughts. I think both fury and arms need a major overhaul. Fury due to how crit reliant it is and arms being so boring. It's not fun going 40 seconds with no blood thirst crits to save up RB's for CS, and I have 35% crit unbuffed at the moment. Plus Wild Strikes even with bloodthirst suck gameplay wise not really damage wise but even that isn't amazing. As for arms I just wish they'd get rid of HS and replace it with something else. Maybe give them back weapon specializations like they had in wrath. Sort of how monks/frost dks get different benefits when dual wielding or using a two handler. This would be for arms only and have something like when using a sword or an axe you have a chance to proc a free slam or do extra bleed damage for X seconds. Maces and pole-arms could have a thing that would make auto-attacks proc a colossus smash type buff where your attacks ignore armor (since they're more bludgeoning type weapons.)Just something to add a bit of variety to weapon choices. Also both specs mastery's are really boring. Oh wow a chance to proc an extra attack for half damage or do 16% more damage when enraged(which still ends up being RNG based.) Also can SMF get something that differentiates it from TG other then being able to always spam heroic strike? These aren't perfect ideas but there definetly a start.

[meteo]

I hate such exagerations. 40 seconds = 9 BTs; 35% + 5% crit = 37% effective crit in a raid

=> chance for 9 bt noncrits in a row is (1-(0.37*2))^9 => 0.0005429503678976% of happening. A very small chance. If the crit reduction of the boss is applied after the BT bonus, the chance decreases even more. Even at only 4 BTs it's already far below 1% of happening.


But I agree with the annoying crit reliance :P

[Archimtiros]

I hate such exagerations. 40 seconds = 9 BTs; 35% + 5% crit = 37% effective crit in a raid

=> chance for 9 bt noncrits in a row is (1-(0.37*2))^9 => 0.0005429503678976% of happening. A very small chance. If the crit reduction of the boss is applied after the BT bonus, the chance decreases even more. Even at only 4 BTs it's already far below 1% of happening.


But I agree with the annoying crit reliance :P

Crit reduction is before double BT. No hidden bonuses for you!

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not the Landsoul of warriors by any means but I figured i'd share some of my thoughts. I think both fury and arms need a major overhaul. Fury due to how crit reliant it is and arms being so boring. It's not fun going 40 seconds with no blood thirst crits to save up RB's for CS, and I have 35% crit unbuffed at the moment. Plus Wild Strikes even with bloodthirst suck gameplay wise not really damage wise but even that isn't amazing. As for arms I just wish they'd get rid of HS and replace it with something else. Maybe give them back weapon specializations like they had in wrath. Sort of how monks/frost dks get different benefits when dual wielding or using a two handler. This would be for arms only and have something like when using a sword or an axe you have a chance to proc a free slam or do extra bleed damage for X seconds. Maces and pole-arms could have a thing that would make auto-attacks proc a colossus smash type buff where your attacks ignore armor (since they're more bludgeoning type weapons.)Just something to add a bit of variety to weapon choices. Also both specs mastery's are really boring. Oh wow a chance to proc an extra attack for half damage or do 16% more damage when enraged(which still ends up being RNG based.) Also can SMF get something that differentiates it from TG other then being able to always spam heroic strike? These aren't perfect ideas but there definetly a start.

Format please! My poor eyes

Anyways; if I understand the points you bring up here, lemme break this down.

1) Low Crit is annoying. I know this, you know this, there's atleast 1 new thread a week about this. But there are many many ways to fix it (and I guarantee you it will be fixed, or atleast mitigated come WoD), without creating a "major overhaul".

2) Meteo covered the less than a 1,000th of a % chance to not crit for 40 seconds but to reiterate. It is annoying not critting when you need to. This is where smart BzR usage comes into play. Thing is, you always remember the one BT that didn't Crit, and you conveniently ignore all the ones that did. Just the way human minds work.

3) I may be the minority here, but personally I believe that the disparity between 2h and DW Frost is one of the worst aspects of the class. Not from an enjoyment/options standpoint; but from a greater good perspective. It requires more balancing and creates a contrast between effectiveness of each subspec (and thus between players). I know more than one DK who feels the need to gear and prepare for swapping between 2h and DW, in case one may be better than another per fight.
Fury would suffer similar problems in theory, but because both subspecs continue to dual wield, there isn't as big a disparity. On top of that, our subspec damage modifier passives aren't nearly as intrusive as DK's are. As cool as the options would be, I would hate it if they made TG and SMF completely different. It just mucks up the game with pretty useless design. There's simply no reason to make them different, just for the hell of it. If a player wants a different playstyle from Fury, they can go Arms, Prot or re-roll!

4) Arms won't see a "major overhaul". It's seen a couple significant changes this expansion already, and isn't in a bad place to be honest. It does suffer from a few technical issues (range limitations mostly) and it is boring as shit, but then so are Rogues. Right now, I feel like it has a place. It's very beginner friendly, and low gear friendly; and doesn't change much as gear improves. I see it very much as the beginner/intermediate stage, with Fury in the advanced, just due to complexity.
I would be upset along with everyone else if Arms just got over tuned to the point of trumping Fury, but how it is now isn't that terrible.

Keep in mind, that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some changes; just providing a bit of realism. You don't fix stuff that ain't broke, and there are many classes/specs in much worse shape than us right now. We are going to be pretty low priority, best thing to hope for is some interesting "leveling perks" come WoD.

[BEYR]

Fury hasn't been updated to deal with boss mechanics very well. It's very dependent on procs and the CS window while boss fights now include heavy switching and "un-hittable" phases. CS being tied to the target and not the warrior means you lose CS in many chaotic add fights and phased fights. A lot of that can be mitigated with DBM and other cooldown addons but the spec itself is poorly equipped to deal with modern raids. They usually deal with this by giving us big damage cooldowns but in reality fury is a lot of standing around pooling rage and 6 seconds of doing anything while hoping you don't have to switch targets. Oddly enough, arms feels more like "berserking" than fury does at the moment.

[Juni]

Fury hasn't been updated to deal with boss mechanics very well. It's very dependent on procs and the CS window while boss fights now include heavy switching and "un-hittable" phases. CS being tied to the target and not the warrior means you lose CS in many chaotic add fights and phased fights. A lot of that can be mitigated with DBM and other cooldown addons but the spec itself is poorly equipped to deal with modern raids. They usually deal with this by giving us big damage cooldowns but in reality fury is a lot of standing around pooling rage and 6 seconds of doing anything while hoping you don't have to switch targets. Oddly enough, arms feels more like "berserking" than fury does at the moment.

This is where player skills shows it's beautiful face. Good warriors will know that applying CS to a target that will stay alive for 2 seconds is pointless. And if you blindly press CS without taking the fight itself into consideration (in 3 seconds I have to go in and kill adds on Norushen, should prolly hold on to CS for a few seconds then) you're doing it wrong. These are the things we need to think about to truly master our spec, that's just how it is, and that's why the skillcap is as high as it is.

And "lose CS in many chaotic add fights and phased fights." what..? We absolutely shine on aoe burst, bladestorm is godlike. And phased fights..? Like Norushen?

[Mihalik]

Fury "feels" right once you have the crit for it to "feel" right. If you don't the damn thing is neigh unplayable and utterly random.

As many have mentioned before Wild Strikes is a totally unpopular ability. Pretty much everyone hates it, and it is sort of a WTF is this supposed to be and do feel to it. The old Blood Surge Slam procs make significantly more sense, especially as fucking it up tended to punish you heavily.

Meat Cleaver is interesting. Some don't like it, some do. I personally do like it, but it really pisses me off that it pretty much killed Cleave. There is no real choice between WW and Cleave depending the number of opponents. The original idea was that 2 targets was Cleave and 3+ was WW+RB, this is not the case anymore, so we end up missing a totally iconic Warrior ability like Cleave, while Blizz is trying to keep another iconic Warrior ability Whirlwind alive.

- - - Updated - - -

Fury hasn't been updated to deal with boss mechanics very well. It's very dependent on procs and the CS window while boss fights now include heavy switching and "un-hittable" phases. CS being tied to the target and not the warrior means you lose CS in many chaotic add fights and phased fights. A lot of that can be mitigated with DBM and other cooldown addons but the spec itself is poorly equipped to deal with modern raids. They usually deal with this by giving us big damage cooldowns but in reality fury is a lot of standing around pooling rage and 6 seconds of doing anything while hoping you don't have to switch targets. Oddly enough, arms feels more like "berserking" than fury does at the moment.

No offense, really! I keep hearing about this "Lots of standing around pooling rage to dump in 6 seconds" myth. If you are actually SoO geared that doesn't happen, if you if does, you are doing something terribly wrong, at this time we are pretty much GCD locked, you always, always have something to press, and doing it right adds to your dps.

If you are under item lvl 545 I do agree that Arms flows much better and you will almost certainly do more dps with it. But after that Fury picks up quickly enough.

[Recke]

Fury hasn't been updated to deal with boss mechanics very well. It's very dependent on procs and the CS window while boss fights now include heavy switching and "un-hittable" phases. CS being tied to the target and not the warrior means you lose CS in many chaotic add fights and phased fights. A lot of that can be mitigated with DBM and other cooldown addons but the spec itself is poorly equipped to deal with modern raids. They usually deal with this by giving us big damage cooldowns but in reality fury is a lot of standing around pooling rage and 6 seconds of doing anything while hoping you don't have to switch targets. Oddly enough, arms feels more like "berserking" than fury does at the moment.

Just because I want to be the third person to quote you.

Anyway, the spec itself, you say, is "poorly equipped to deal with modern raids" however by altering the rotation to line up and correspond with fight, you'll find yourself doing about as much damage as anyone else. There's a reason the top Fury logs are as high as they are, only really consistently being bested by locks, mages, and the occasional rogue (exaggeration outside of warlock, as it greatly depends on the fight).

[meteo]

OT:

Anyway, the spec itself, you say, is "poorly equipped to deal with modern raids" however by altering the rotation to line up and correspond with fight, you'll find yourself doing about as much damage as anyone else. There's a reason the top Fury logs are as high as they are, only really consistently being bested by locks, mages, and the occasional rogue (exaggeration outside of warlock, as it greatly depends on the fight).

Stop ignoring the hunters. I'm finally relieved of tanking and can start looking at DPSing again but he just did 450k dps on Malkorok 10 with mainly singletarget (95.3% malkorok) damage. Doubt I will ever be able to beat that. Especially when you look at the chance for a 10man raid to ever see a warforged weapon (unless it's a hunter weapon... already had 5 hc wf weapons for him to choose which one he is in the mood to use today...)

[Fatalfuror]

Just because I want to be the third person to quote you.

Anyway, the spec itself, you say, is "poorly equipped to deal with modern raids" however by altering the rotation to line up and correspond with fight, you'll find yourself doing about as much damage as anyone else. There's a reason the top Fury logs are as high as they are, only really consistently being bested by locks, mages, and the occasional rogue (exaggeration outside of warlock, as it greatly depends on the fight).

Most of the Top Fury Logs are gamed/gimmicked. Then again, most logs in general are. This tier is probably one of the worst to draw any definite conclusions from.

Only a few fights can be considered "legit" this tier. Mainly: Norushen (obviously whoever gets purified first), Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, and Thok. And even on Malkorok you could direct the rest of the raid not to AoE the adds, thus allowing for huge Bladestorm bursts. Essentially, any add fight is suspect, and many are extremely bad in this regard. Just too many fights to exploit for extra add damage. I hope in the future we have logs/ranks that track just damage on boss to circumvent this (at least for late in the tier).

Anyway, damage dealt is a bad way to ascertain whether or not a spec is functioning well. I could be doing 1 million DPS, with just one button push every 10 seconds. Would that make the spec okay, even if it was boring as fuck? (Answer: No, it wouldn't. Which is why arguments that base themselves around damage are simply inappropriate if a discussion is revolving around general feel.) I still find myself frustrated fairly often by RNG even with my gear. Makes me glad that I didn't come back to WoW until halfway through ToT, so I didn't have to deal with the retarded low crit rates while leveling/raiding. Although, I did miss the overpowered executes, apparently.

[Recke]

Most of the Top Fury Logs are gamed/gimmicked. Then again, most logs in general are. This tier is probably one of the worst to draw any definite conclusions from.

In no way was I talking about just the "top parses," but on average, warrior parses are higher than most. How about you go and review more than the top 10 logs per class and tell me that all of those parses were gamed/gimmicked, or held for 1 person to pad.

@meteo, sorry, I did forget hunters.

[Fatalfuror]

In no way was I talking about just the "top parses," but on average, warrior parses are higher than most. How about you go and review more than the top 10 logs per class and tell me that all of those parses were gamed/gimmicked, or held for 1 person to pad.

Your words, not mine: "There's a reason the top Fury logs are as high as they are" (and I gave you those reasons: padding/gimmicks/"exploits"). Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time going through every log to see which is padding and which isn't. That's why you focus on a few fights where padding isn't as prevalent, rather than taking the average as a whole of the tier. Besides that, like most people on these forums, you'd rather ignore half of what I say because you're too busy being indignant.

Let me repeat for you: Damage has little to do with the feel of a spec. They could make Storm Bolt deal 10 billion damage every time we use it, but we'd still have quantifiable issues with the way the spec plays (especially at low crit levels).