SoO Nerfs, infuriating.

[KaPe]

And some people here should stop taking "I'm annoyed with this change since I was looking forward to doing these bosses as they were a few months ago" as "OMG BLIZZ Y UDO THIS I UNSUB".

Psst, here's a secret:

These bosses were changed already. "Few months ago", you had people abusing HoP on Paragons and killing Hisek first. You had people using dagger to suicide Malice on Garrosh. You had Rogues doing all the belts with... whatever it was. You couldn't use FD/SG/Vanish on Aim. You could get Amber dropped on scorpion. Paragon damage wasn't "smooth", whatever that meant in the end.

"Few months ago" include all sort of tricks, stacking and "creative mechanics" to make up for vastly inferior gear and sometimes buggy boss design. You will not experience those exact bosses anyway. Some of changes were "buffs" - dagger/HoP/rogue belt change - some were nerfs. I don't think I remember you crying your eyes out over these - did you?

[dusselldorf]

Why do people say "you don't have enough skill" when either A) you were late to the game for X reason or B) You had issues forming/getting into a group due to lack of player interest?

Skill is the ability to achieve an objective you are trying. If you cannot complete the objective, for *whatever* reason, you and your group lack the skill required to do so. That is a simple fact. Any boss kill is dynamic with respect to time. Each moment that passes from its introduction requires less skill than the time period before, for several reasons.

1)gear
2)experience
3)help from guides
4)practice
5)nerfs
6)buffs

Skill is simply defined as the ability to complete an objective. Guess what, if you've tried an objective and failed at completing it, you do not have the ability required to complete it. That includes developing and growing a group. What irks me is that people are upset because they feel like Blizzard is telling them they're not good enough. They don't care that they are, in fact, not good enough. That doesn't mean they can't progress, but what they want can't be given. The difficulty now even absent nerfs is not the same as the difficulty months ago.

[Deja Thoris]

You are simply not registering what i'm saying. It's -again - HEROIC. There is no need to cater with this difficulty, if it's downable by the hardcore guilds, it should remain that way, others will take longer and still have a great challenge. Your readiness to jump to insults only embarasses yourself.

I'm not insulting you, I'm stating a fact. It's Blizz's game and they determine if there is a need. Not you. Get it?

[miffy23]

The wrongness is when you think anyone else should care.

I said that - when? Is this a discussion on the topic, or not? Obviously you seem to care about the topic, or you wouldn't even peruse the thread.

On another note, outta this thread. It's obvious that the majority just hop into these threads to jack off to themselves instead of actually taking a look at a fresh perspective or having some sort of rational discussion.

It's kind of amusing how seemingly bitter and vindictive people around here become when you simply state an opinion.

[Osmeric]

I said that - when? Is this a discussion on the topic, or not? Obviously you seem to care about the topic, or you wouldn't even peruse the thread.

I care about the topic. I care not one whit for you or your opinion.

[miffy23]

I'm not insulting you, I'm stating a fact. It's Blizz's game and they determine if there is a need. Not you. Get it?

Wait what - I don't? *puzzled looks*
Also, maybe you should look up "fact" and what it means. "If you don't get this, you're stupid", is not stating a fact, it's grade school flaming.
If you can't get that i'm stating an opinion based on my perspective as a commencing heroic raider, then you shouldn't have bothered commenting, since groundbreaking statements like "it's Blizz's game" could surely be avoided next time.

- - - Updated - - -

I care about the topic. I care not one whit for you or your opinion.

And yet you seem to find fault in the fact that I too, care about the topic, and have a different opinion.

[Osmeric]

And yet you seem to find fault in the fact that I too, care about the topic, and have a different opinion.

Actually, what annoyed me was your puerile insistence that we weren't understanding you. We do understand you. This does not lead to the outcome you foolishly expected.

[jearle]

This happens every expansion, sorry it happened to you when you were on the cusp, but this is no surprise. This is a way for blizzard to keep a segment of people paying their sub while they work on the xpac.

Just get your kills in, farm up some gear and wait a while for it to become inferior again. This is the cycle.

[miffy23]

Actually, what annoyed me was your puerile insistence that we weren't understanding you. We do understand you. This does not lead to the outcome you foolishly expected.

And yet many obviously don't understand, and keep harping on about "the race" and "coming too late".
Do tell, what outcome had I so foolishly expected when pointing out that quite a few are obviously misunderstanding? My aim was never anything else but to state: I don't like this. It's called expressing an opinion. When someone misunderstands you, often you may feel compelled to correct that person, regardless of whether that will magically make that person agree with you or not. My aim was not to convince anyone of anything - it was to express my standpoint. I'm sorry you seem so insistent on interpreting a stance that isn't there, like many others.

[Deleted]

I should start by saying that I've never liked nerfs. (Unless it fixes broken bosses).

However, when I complained in the past, nerfs never actually affected me because I didn't raid Heroic. Now, SoO is my first Heroic tier, and I personally see it as a real goal of mine to beat Garrosh, after having tried really hard to work my way from normals at the start of MoP, to being an officer in Heroic guild. I play this game for challenge.These bosses are not impossible. My guild has almost gotten Thok down, in fact I'm almost certain he'll be going down on sunday. If he doesn't, for whatever reason, I'd rather never kill him than kill him with the help of a nerf. (We're 10 man, and got him really low, with 3 melee so it's obviously possible). I've partly helped build a guild and a raid team and now when we kill Garrosh I must, through no choice of my own, say 'Yeah we killed Garrosh, but only after the nerfs.' Could we have done it without the nerfs? Yes. This is a slap in the face.

Edit: we're only got 5 core players. This has little to do with skill and more to do with it being a new guild. Yet we've made it to 10, and probably 11, but will be forced to kill 12 with nerfs.

Edit: How about no nerfs at all? Let people get better/let people get gear (the natural nerf). Nerfs are NOT needed. If you're not good enough to get to garrosh before WoD, then that's fine. But there's plenty of time till WoD. So why nerf?

So after having cleared the Heroic content myself and now in the process of recruiting for WoD, I can tell you that I don't mind these nerfs at all. What you need to keep in mind, is that specifically on Siegecrafter and Klaxxi 10 man, it removes some of the RNG crap that can kill a player in 2 seconds, without them being able to react. I've had my fair share of wipes on Siegecrafter, that is arguably harder than Heroic Garrosh on 10 man. The requirements to your setup, to individual player skill and awareness, the need for trinket procs or the conveyerbelt just fuck you over is retarded, when all combined with crap RNG.

OP, I get your point and although you don't want to listen to people saying "You've had x amount of months to kill it etc." there is a point worth keeping in mind here. As you gear up week after week, you're basically applying your own nerfs to the fights. The gear you have now is several ilvl's higher than what people had months ago and thus the effect is the same - it's already easier for you now, than it was for others.

At the same time, it just makes Siegecrafter less brutal to teach new players and honestly, if you haven't killed Thok by now, you'd be looking at a while before Siegecrafter would go down without any nerfs. My own guild had 202 wipes on that shit boss and we killed it months ago. How long do you think your own guild would be wiping on it without buffs? You say you have a small roster due to being newly formed, well guess what, if you don't have a proper setup you might as well not bother.

So all in all, I really don't think you need to complain about nerfs to fights you've never even seen on Heroic.

[Senen]

we appreciate having the same challenge.

Except you don't.
There have been dozens of changes on the last bosses and the different classes since the first kills, you have access to guides and videos, you have far more gear than they had and you've probably spent far more time on it than they had.

This game is all about objectives. If your objective was to kill everything pre-nerf, you've failed. But, again, almost every guilds have failed. Most raid bosses are slightly changed after the very first kill or even before the first kill.
If your objective was to kill it before the "big official nerfs", you've also failed. Yeah, it's sad. The good side is, you now have an even higher incentive to succeed in the next raid tier!

I guess what motivates this kind of nerf is seeing more guilds than usual cater on a particular boss, meaning the guilds that are against him take more and more tries to defeat him. That's normal, even with a huge amount of time some people would never kill Blackfuse HM. The goal of Blizzard is to let everyone face a challenge they can beat in a reasonable amount of time/trys.
Blackfuse HM/Klaxxi HM was probably too hard for the guilds reaching them nowadays so they've nerfed it. You can say that you were ready to try them again and again until you defeat them, Blizzard knows it's not healthy for its game if guilds are wasting 500+ tries (it's a random example) on each of the three last bosses.

[Khorm]

4 months in and only 120 odd 10m guilds are 14/14. I think SoO is a different beast to other tiers we have had.

[Deleted]

You are simply not registering what i'm saying. It's -again - HEROIC. There is no need to cater with this difficulty, if it's downable by the hardcore guilds, it should remain that way, others will take longer and still have a great challenge. Your readiness to jump to insults only embarasses yourself.

So you are saying that Blizzard should design content after the hardcore guilds, not the average raidgroup?
If enough guilds havent downed an encounter(s) after a certain amount of time, Blizzard will make adjustments to get the numbers Blizzard themself are happy about. Its fine if its hard in the start, but after some time its fine with nerfs. I prefer this kind of thing over a zonewide nerf.

You are basically saying that you are hardcore, but havent downed the bosses because of roster problems. If you were hardcore, you would make sure you didnt have a roster problem to begin with.

Garrosh is still left untouched which should be your main focus.

[Thychiz]

I hear where you're coming from, it sucks from a competitive point of view, My group killed it pre-nerf so I really can't make the same complaints but I can certainly see your point. To be honest I actually welcome the nerf! So we can push past him quicker (hopefully).
Unfortunately coming on here to complain won't get you anything, complaining to blizzard won't get you anything, very rarely (if ever) have I seen them revert a boss nerf.

They didn't nerf Garrosh, game isn't "over" - beat him then complain it's too easy :P

[miffy23]

You guys just don't listen. A lot of guilds are just as capable as any others,
but they don't raid at a frantic progress race pace.

There is objectively no reason to nerf content and take the bad guilds by the hand at all, on heroic that is. My guild is, based on wipes/boss, not behind or failing in any way or form, we're downing most bosses in a few pulls. We simply don't raid that much. Why does that mean we have to accept a mandatorily nerfed version, just because we don't have the schedule allowing for it? Who really benefits from nerfs to heroic after 4 months in? I'm sorry, but anyone really stuck on progress after 4 months, yes ofc they need it. THERE ARE MANY THAT DON'T.

Be it complaining or not, it's a perspective that i'm not alone with, and i'm simply expressing it. Obviously there is no going back on it. I would have no issue whatsoever with a voluntary ICC/DS style nerf/buff. And i'm sure these changes aren't terribly drastic, but it's still sad as a purist to be deprived of that chance. Many people simply enjoy the challenge without the hassle.

[Deleted]

You guys just don't listen. A lot of guilds are just as capable as any others,
but they don't raid at a frantic progress race pace.

There is objectively no reason to nerf content and take the bad guilds by the hand at all, on heroic that is. My guild is, based on wipes/boss, not behind or failing in any way or form, we're downing most bosses in a few pulls. We simply don't raid that much. Why does that mean we have to accept a mandatorily nerfed version, just because we don't have the schedule allowing for it? Who really benefits from nerfs to heroic after 4 months in? I'm sorry, but anyone really stuck on progress after 4 months, yes ofc they need it. THERE ARE MANY THAT DON'T.

Be it complaining or not, it's a perspective that i'm not alone with, and i'm simply expressing it. Obviously there is no going back on it. I would have no issue whatsoever with a voluntary ICC/DS style nerf/buff. And i'm sure these changes aren't terribly drastic, but it's still sad as a purist to be deprived of that chance. Many people simply enjoy the challenge without the hassle.

Oh, but you are behind. You're doing content now with extensive guides, and most guilds currently working on Thok and beyond are doing it with 5-10 more iLvls than guilds like mine did when we killed say, Siegecrafter. Siegecrafter with 570 average iLvl (never mind the 560-565'ish iLvls people had when it was first killed on 10-man) is an entirely different fight to Siegecrafter with 575+ iLvl. If you're going to just look at wipes/boss, you can't do it in a vacuum, and if you want to claim equal skill (whether that be at playing one's class or simply quickly formulating a sound approach to killing a boss, which I find is often the difference between top 500 and sub 500 guilds), you should be killing bosses with fewer wipes than the rest of us did.

Listen, I get that you think nerfs suck. And dumb, thoughtless blanket nerfs like the ones implemented in ICC and DS certainly do. They break fights in half, and nobody can ever be bothered to turn them off. These "nerfs", though? What I, and several other people in this thread that have long since killed the bosses, am trying to say, is that these "nerfs" aren't nerfs. They're fixes. The fights were overtuned and unfair in certains places before the nerfs, and that's been fixed.

Instead of caterwauling about how it's unfair that you don't get to wipe 400 times on the pre-fixed version of these fights, perhaps you should be grateful that you'll be spared 50% of those wipes being caused by completely ridiculous tuning on certain mechanics. You should be relishing the fact that (if you're a 10-man guild), dealing with mines is suddenly a viable strategy - hell, you're going to see MORE of the Siegecrafter fight than those of us that were forced to mindlessly kill mines on belt because not doing so wasn't viable without bringing 7 destro locks and an ele sham. You're not going to have to curse because Thok pulls randomly go tits-up when Shock Blast targets the same person 4 times in a row.

If you truly are a purist, as you claim, you will understand the difference between true and artificial difficulty. I assure you, the true difficulty in these fights hasn't been touched - the only thing these fixes accomplish is to stop progressing guilds (and even those with the bosses on farm) from having a slew of wipes that come down simply to bad RNG.

[Hyve]

And trust me... if you didn't kill Thok yet you should be happy about the nerfs because you probably wouldn't be able to kill Garrosh before WoD anyways. Everything until Siegecrafter is REALLY easy.

Certain bosses pose different issues for different groups. Siegecraft is a pain, but Spoils can throw out real issues for groups that rely on each other so much, Dark Shamans also, and Juggernaut can push your Healers to their limit.

Generally, I agree, but if people are just as of now completing Malkorok or Spoils, they'd have plenty of time to still get Garrosh down, without these Nerfs. I'm not against them, I just think it's an odd stance to take.

[thunterman]

The content is old, and not enough people are killing it, Nerfs are implemented to allow those people to progress, nothing is tailored to any one individual, nor one guild. If your capable, but have an unformed guild, that's still not the problem of thousands of guilds that are stuck. Blizzard tailor to the majority. The majority needs / wants a nerf. Its a bit unfortunate for you, because you don't get the e-peen cred, but you shouldn't try form a raiding guild mid expansion/patch if you wish to avoid this scenario. I'd take the advice of others, take it like a man and push for eliteness in WoD

[Magpai]

Blizzard nerfs content when progression isn't going at the rate they want. Get over it. This is SO not something to be angry about.

And I say get over it partially because it's a stupid thing to be angry about, but mostly because it's not going to change, so foaming at the mouth (over a fucking video game) is not productive.

[miffy23]

Oh, but you are behind. You're doing content now with extensive guides, and most guilds currently working on Thok and beyond are doing it with 5-10 more iLvls than guilds like mine did when we killed say, Siegecrafter. Siegecrafter with 570 average iLvl (never mind the 560-565'ish iLvls people had when it was first killed on 10-man) is an entirely different fight to Siegecrafter with 575+ iLvl. If you're going to just look at wipes/boss, you can't do it in a vacuum, and if you want to claim equal skill (whether that be at playing one's class or simply quickly formulating a sound approach to killing a boss, which I find is often the difference between top 500 and sub 500 guilds), you should be killing bosses with fewer wipes than the rest of us did.

Listen, I get that you think nerfs suck. And dumb, thoughtless blanket nerfs like the ones implemented in ICC and DS certainly do. They break fights in half, and nobody can ever be bothered to turn them off. These "nerfs", though? What I, and several other people in this thread that have long since killed the bosses, am trying to say, is that these "nerfs" aren't nerfs. They're fixes. The fights were overtuned and unfair in certains places before the nerfs, and that's been fixed.

Instead of caterwauling about how it's unfair that you don't get to wipe 400 times on the pre-fixed version of these fights, perhaps you should be grateful that you'll be spared 50% of those wipes being caused by completely ridiculous tuning on certain mechanics. You should be relishing the fact that (if you're a 10-man guild), dealing with mines is suddenly a viable strategy - hell, you're going to see MORE of the Siegecrafter fight than those of us that were forced to mindlessly kill mines on belt because not doing so wasn't viable without bringing 7 destro locks and an ele sham. You're not going to have to curse because Thok pulls randomly go tits-up when Shock Blast targets the same person 4 times in a row.

If you truly are a purist, as you claim, you will understand the difference between true and artificial difficulty. I assure you, the true difficulty in these fights hasn't been touched - the only thing these fixes accomplish is to stop progressing guilds (and even those with the bosses on farm) from having a slew of wipes that come down simply to bad RNG.

I appreciate the elaboration, it actually does put my mind to rest a bit. As long as they don't force a blanket nerf on us, i'll be content.

edit: for the record, we don't plan on farming easier bosses or anything like that. If need be, we WILL smash our faces into 565 on later bosses - noone is currently over 565 in our team.