Replace LFR with 5-mans

[pallyopness]

I'm not talking MoP dungeons. WotLK had 16 dungeons to pick from by the end. Each took the typical pug about 45 minutes. That's about half as long as heroic DS clears were taking my guild by the end of last expansion. So you're telling me that 16 dungeons at 45 minutes is really more compelling than one raid at an hour and a half? Granted, that working up to that point requires hours upon hours for weeks upon weeks of beating your head against the same bosses week in and week out, but most players don't have the patience for that. This is why LFR and Flex came into being.


Actually most people who quit because it is too difficult would rather put their effort into excelling at an activity that will actually pay off for them in a meaningful way. If you're having trouble understanding that I urge you to read this 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person article and figure out where raiding fits into that.

the typical real life excelling more important argument....when all else fails use life as the reason it is ok to play poorly forever.....some people can excel at both FYI.....Also, I don't pug anything, I run with my guild for everything....no dungeon ever took me 45 minutes to complete...not even the infamous oh so hard cata dungeons

[RickJamesLich]

To be honest I think taking out LFR and giving casuals more 5 mans makes a lot more sense. I really don't get how people are having fun doing weak ass versions of raids that are actually require skill if you try them on normal. 5 mans from the past simply had way more communication, required more strategy than the LFR stuff of today, but I don't think they were overly hard either. Does LFR really resemble a game at this point? It's more like a computer program you go into to give your toon items that have their titles listed in purple lol.

[Ronduwil]

AH HA!!! But to be an assassin requires skill.......something that was lacking which caused the creation of lfr in the first place.

I'm pretty sure that the OP was asking for the return of 5-mans that require skill in lieu of LFR. I'm surprised to find you objecting so strenuously to that. You can't make LFRs require skill because trying to spot and remove five duds is more than five times harder than spotting and removing one dud in a dungeon.

[pallyopness]

I'm pretty sure that the OP was asking for the return of 5-mans that require skill in lieu of LFR. I'm surprised to find you objecting so strenuously to that. You can't make LFRs require skill because trying to spot and remove five duds is more than five times harder than spotting and removing one dud in a dungeon.

Im not against dungeons per se...I am against creating 5 man dungeons that have actual end game bosses in them as I *think* he was saying. But maybe I interpreted his post entirely wrong lol

[TaxmanCDN]

Because so long as "dirty casual scum" is allowed to raid without putting in a per-requsite amount of effort determined by the psedu-hard core elitist raiding community, they will *never* drop the subject.

At the end of the day, it really does boil down to people not wanting others to share in content they themselves feel should be exclusive to only them, and by people who are in bad raiding guilds that require them to participate in LFR and Flex in order to do Normals and Heroics. What I find painfully ironic is even if LFR never existed, people would be complaining about 5-mans and Flex in place of it, as even without LFR and the idea that no one but they can see "their" content, they'd still be "required" to run easier content they have no interest in in order to perform in Normals and Heroics, even though Blizzard doens't tune said difficulties with easier difficulties in mind.

At the end of the day: People complain because it's the internet, and until WoW is catered exclusively to them (which it never will be), they'll never cease complaining...Ergo the complaints shall never stop. Ever.

As a normal/heroic raider, I've never heard a raider make this agrument, although I see non-raiders use it allot. I couldn't care less if LFR existed so non-raiders could see the content. But I don't want LFR to be part of the gearing process. When they nerf the ULVS trinket and then put in better trinkets in LFR that the previous' tier's normals, we feel forced to run LFR for gear so we don't hold our raid team back. Take the gearing out of the equation for raiders so we never have to run LFR, and we won't complain.

[pallyopness]

You prove you don't know what you're talking about...
Subs bled heavily throughout Cata and LFR was intended to help staunch the flow. LFR wasn't even going to be added until MoP. But they got it out and live earlier for the reason I just stated.

Because your opinion is fact....lol

[Ronduwil]

some people can excel at both FYI.....

And that's a choice that they made and I'm fine with that. Some people don't bother, and that's a choice that they made that I'm fine with too. Blizzard is happy to collect cash from both sets of folks.

Also, I don't pug anything, I run with my guild for everything....

Then you are not a member of the audience at which this feature would be targeted so your preferences don't carry as much weight in this particular feature's discussion.

no dungeon ever took me 45 minutes to complete...not even the infamous oh so hard cata dungeons

So you guys all got your Bear-ly Made it Achievement on your very first run through. If you were raid geared, though, I'd be kind of disappointed if you weren't facerolling it. I myself got it pre-nerf in 453 gear, but it took many many pugs and introduced me to the utility of spirit link totem. Most players I know never got that achievement without facerolling it in Heroic DS gear.

[nekobaka]

Great this thread is getting derailed along with the help of mods. This thread is a discussion of game play format preference, dont make this into a casual vs hardcore debate. The content would still be there for those who want an easy to access method and could even be more accessible than LFR is right now which isnt very casual friendly at all anymore. It has nothing to do with "filthy casuals" which is used far more by self proclaimed casuals using it as a clutch than self proclaimed hard core.

Not everyone likes the game play experience of LFR in its current form including those among the "casuals." The purpose of LFR in its current form is to give players new content to see that they would have not otherwise seen and be kept busy with a long term grind. That role has failed according to the former lead developer that pushed the system heavily. The size of LFR is largely due to an attempt to resolve queue issues and reduce an individuals impact on the group if they screw up or intentionally grief. Queues are twice as long as they was in Cata for five mans rendering that aspect bust and not everyone likes the massive size.

From a seeing the content stand point I would rather see it in the form of a five man or scenario. From a gear standpoint Blizzard is just going to have to figure it out. LFR is already getting hit with the nerf bat for the next expansion with more alternatives making LFR no longer the only long term grind for "casuals." If Blizzard still wants me a now non-raider to see the raid content they produce then it better not be in the format it is today.

In essence yes.....people asked for easier ways to see end content...blizz delivered...now they complain that the gear isn't the same....the q is too long and blizzard must fix....its too face roll even though it takes hours to complete for the intended crowd. Need more examples or did I get the point across?

Fairly strongly from WotLK players asked for easier methods to form groups to then see the content. No one asked for LFR in its current form. At first players was asking for a cross realm group finder system which Blizzard said no to at the time as they was planning LFR to replace the whole group finder system which is why the system got left to rot until now. That system we see in place to rival OQ is what players asked for over five years ago.

The players who asked for LFR was PuG raiders. The targeted audience of LFR is non-raiders who had no prior interests in stepping foot into raid content. If the core audience really wanted to see raid content then there would have been no need to pull tier gear from vendors and next shove VP gear behind raid reputation and finaly removing VP gear all together in order to get players to run LFR longer. No one asked for the LFR that Blizzard delivered.

[RickJamesLich]

Or, and I fail to see how this is so alien a concept, have both LFR and 5 mans in the game?!

5 mans are on the verge of death tho lol. There used to be some legendary ones but now the MOP 5 mans are pretty much outgeared after you've been level 90 for 4 or 5 hours. I don't think it's because 5 mans are inherently boring either, they've been around since the start, provide just as much lore as raids, and often times are the same size of something like LFR anyways.

Compare a 4 hour LFR run to a 5 man dungeon where it's easier to communicate with people for starters. The current 10 minute dungeons that blizz has been given are crap, but if they actually made a dungeon 30 minutes... 45 minutes.... or put in wings and such, who knows, they may start being interesting again. Now I know from time to time there will be people that have legit reasons for LFR, but most of the stuff I hear just doesn't make sense. If you are a casual, how do you have time to do something that takes 3 or 4 hours per wing? And then do all 4 wings on top of that? The other main reason is lore, which I think blizz has demonstrated they can make just as good from 5 mans, as they've done in places such as the Well of Eternity, Sunwell Plateau, Halls of Reflection, etc.

The pay off? You take out the biggest toxic environment in the game, and encourage people to stop afk'ing and go out there and actually play the game lol. I know not all will agree, but IMO, it makes the most sense.

[pallyopness]

At what point do I specifically claim this?

please post a factual piece stating lfr was implemented to stop bleeding subs.......what i recall is blizzard saying it was implemented so that more players could see the end game. you claiming i don't know what I am talking about based on your bleeding subs statement is where you stated this.

[Ronduwil]

5 mans are on the verge of death tho lol. There used to be some legendary ones but now the MOP 5 mans are pretty much outgeared after you've been level 90 for 4 or 5 hours. I don't think it's because 5 mans are inherently boring either, they've been around since the start, provide just as much lore as raids, and often times are the same size of something like LFR anyways.

My hunter dinged 90 Saturday morning. The night before I ran a marathon Siege of Niuzao Temple run that lasted 3 hours because we kept having to replace fail tanks and/or heals. The next day I dinged and equipped my account bound heirlooms to get into LFR. By day's end he had farmed all 20 sigils and had cleared ToT LFR. The next morning I farmed a couple of heroics for the justice I needed to upgrade a trinket to qualify for SOO LFR and the difference between them and my level 89 three hour run was night and day. Not one wipe, let alone a series of them. That's not suprising, because with the today's overinflated gear discrepancies most players can solo them.

The game's current state: In less than 48 hours I cleared every single LFR in the game up through Garrosh SOO. Is this content really supposed to last longer than heroic dungeons?

Compare a 4 hour LFR run to a 5 man dungeon where it's easier to communicate with people for starters. The current 10 minute dungeons that blizz has been given are crap, but if they actually made a dungeon 30 minutes... 45 minutes.... or put in wings and such, who knows, they may start being interesting again. Now I know from time to time there will be people that have legit reasons for LFR, but most of the stuff I hear just doesn't make sense. If you are a casual, how do you have time to do something that takes 3 or 4 hours per wing? And then do all 4 wings on top of that? The other main reason is lore, which I think blizz has demonstrated they can make just as good from 5 mans, as they've done in places such as the Well of Eternity, Sunwell Plateau, Halls of Reflection, etc.

The pay off? You take out the biggest toxic environment in the game, and encourage people to stop afk'ing and go out there and actually play the game lol. I know not all will agree, but IMO, it makes the most sense.

I know you and I don't always see eye to eye, but I'm completely with you on this.

[Mystrome]

I kinda miss the the WotLK 5 mans. Even when you completely outgear them, it was fun to blast trough them if you were dealt a competent group. Cata 5 man HC's were tough, and i understand that they were very painful for (some) random made groups, but once people knew what to do (more than getting better gear) they quickly stopped being (as) painful. I've never really enjoyed the 5 man content in MoP, and LFR has only gotten worse since it was introduced with DS. For me there is absolutely 0 incentive to even do 5 mans anymore. Because it's not the most efficient way to cap VP anymore, groups usually consist of people who can't queue for LFR yet.

The way i see the LFR vs 5 man debate is that it's not as much a vs, but more of an or/or discussion. I don't think there's a >need< for 4 difficulty levels of a raid. LFR was introduced to cater to people unable to raid because of not being able to commit to a schedule (for whatever reason), and when Flex was introduced, it's basically aiming for the same group, unable to commit to schedules. I'd say 5 man content would be a better subject for having more than 3 difficulties. If i could swing the hammer-o-ruling around Blizz HQ, i would scrap LFR and introduce 5 difficulties to 5 man dungeons:

Mythic - Premade group - Blue gear with an Epic drop from the last boss, ilvl between Normal & Heroic raid lvls and difficulty close to (the new) HC raids.
Heroic - Queue-able - Blue gear with an Epic drop from the last boss, ilvl Normal raid -4
Normal - Queue-able - All blue gear, ilvl Normal raid -12/13
Challenge - Premade group - Bragging rights
Leveling - Queue-able - Blue gear level-apropriate.

So basically all difficulties are for the max level, except for the leveling dungeons ofc. Incentives to run HC or Mythic 5 mans could be highest VP rewards, Legendary quests, mounts/pets (recolorings of the same drops for higher difficulties perhaps?).

[MildCore]

I like your idea OP. Turning future raids "LFR-mode" act like a normal raid/flex (cross realm and what have you) but only be 5 man and offer slightly-better-than-heroic-blues epic gear.

[RickJamesLich]

I think 5 man being so easy is really because Blizzard go from one extreme to another. People disliked how easy WoTLK heroics got so they made them more difficult for Cata. After people complained about those, they hit them all with a giant nerf bat. They seem to be unable to find a middle ground. Hopefully WoD solves this by having fairly easy normal dungeons but tougher heroic version of them.

You have 4 hour LFR runs? Yikes. The problem with huge, long dungeons, while I would love them personally, the majority just don't want them anymore. I would LOVE to see stuff like BRD again with the same kind of size and number of bosses. People just don't have patience these days, imo. It's exactly why people are so hostile to new players, or players who might get one thing wrong or even when someone asks for help or advice. They now think everything should be done super fast and that everyone should know everything about the game. The community is it's own worst enemy in terms of actual community and improving the game for everyone. Too many have an "it's my way or no way" attitude to stuff. It's why you'll likely never see huge 2 hours long dungeons again. And it's a shame, really.

I've never had a LFR run take me 3/4 hours to complete. And casual players will actually be busy doing something else while they wait for their queue to pop. They don't all just sit there and twiddle their thumbs. There are also too many bad players hiding under the casual tag. These are likely to be the players that complain the most about things that most casuals are actually happy with. Casuals enjoy challenge. They have skill. Well, not all of them but you get what I mean xD

I think I just rambled about nothing there lol It's late and I'm tired I know what I mean at least lol

I'm hoping they find a middle ground. To be honest, it seems like they tinkered around too much with a successful formula - make normal mode stuff easy, and make the heroic stuff harder. I really don't think it was even so much the difficulty of the 5 mans in Cata that had people pissed, but the fact that there really weren't alternative fun things to do that you could mix in. Questing for example is rendered obsolete once you hit 90, blizz is missing out on a good opportunity here, and not by making 40 different dailies.... put 10 dailies in but make them interesting. As it stands now, the dailies are just the same boring quests you do on the way to 90.... kill 7 guys, pick up 5 items from those guys you killed, and free 3 prisoners. Back in BC we got stuff like bombing runs - why can't they give us that again? lol

The 4 hour LFR runs are from weird things such as the group skipping a pack of trash, then a tank drops and the new tank can't figure out how to run past the trash and dies over and over for 30 minutes, or people randomly wiping the group, or people not wanting to follow simple mechanics on bosses. Bad stuff. BRD was an awesome dungeon, at times it seemed like it was impossible to fully explore when it was fresh, interesting lore, all sorts of stuff that could be upgrades for your toon - good stuff... that's what I think they should be delivering for casuals. Keep in mind BRD came out in vanilla, and it's likely larger than all of ToT combined, and it was just one dungeon. Not saying *every* dungeon should be that long, but blizz really should do something like give 1 or 2 that are.

I will agree the wow community isn't always nice to new players, and blizz has been tossing in stuff to help new guys out, like proving grounds for example. I'm all for multiple difficulties, but as it stands now, I think some of the stuff is *too* easy, and there's too much of it that is. Questing for example, who in their right mind would do the quests at this point besides for achievement points? Toss in stuff like a ring of blood.... make an elite out there that's tough to kill unless you group up with a few people, have a few areas where PvP is encouraged.... small stuff like that would make a zone much more interesting than going from one quest hub, to another that's 20 feet away, and doing the same old "kill 7 guys, pick up 5 items...." Don't get me wrong, questing is grindy, but it's a weird easy grind, one that takes a long time but also one in which you are never presented with the possibility of dying.

I'm not quite sure about the thing with waiting for queue pops, honestly once you are 90... unless you are doing dailies or something (which you often don't need to do for that long)... there's not much else to do IMO besides sit in the city and wait for that queue pop. The queue pop thing IMO has just got to go. Or at the very least find ways to reduce it. Encouraging people to chat, make friends, so they can get into a guild and do dungeons IMO is what wow is all about. Sure a long time ago there were some that had to wait hours for a dungeon - I never really had that problem personally, I made a few buddies, tried to play my role well, was polite and would help out others and down the road they'd return the favor. I'm just rambling at this point too lol.... rambling can be fun tho.

[Dyptheria]

@UnifiedDivide

I agree with you virtually 100%. This new "XBox generation" want everything done yesterday. Personally, I think they are not MMORPG players, or even MMO players. They are just game players, and they do not buy into the MMO or MMORPG culture. Unfortunately Blizzard seems to be pandering to them.

@thread

I've played since Vanilla, where no matter what dungeon you were in, the rules were simple. Mark the targets and respect the kill order, or wipe. The same rules applied in TBC, yet were heavily relaxed in Wrath. They came back for Cataclysm, but the precedent had been set and people squealed, so the nerf bat came swingin'.

My problem with LFR is this: just because people are casual, doesn't mean they have no skill. There's no reason they cannot be skilled, focused and yet time-limited, yet LFR allows players to basically ignore game mechanics. With that in mind, consider this post. If Proving Grounds were used as a gating mechanism for LFR, the chances are it would make the grouping of 25 random people far more successful, and make for a far more realistic gaming experience for all involved. It could also mean reducing LFR to 10 man: if you can raise the skill level, you can lower the group size.

The OP makes a very good point about 5-mans though. 5-mans, plus judicious use of phasing technology in-instance, could make for a better experience for casuals, and provide endgame content which functions as decent alternative to raiding.

One thing I'll add. All those saying that LFR wasn't asked for...well actually it was. I distinctly remember reading more than a few posts on the official forums from people basically saying "I pay my sub every month, same as everyone else. I'm entitled to see everything in the game."

[DDKingg]

Ive been thinking about this lately, here's what I've come up with:

- make LFR 4 7-man dungeons
- 1 tank, 2 healers
- make the party pay attention to all mechanics
- and make it farmable (ala heroic ZG/ZA catchup)

I miss having hard\fun heroics that allowed you to be ready for normal mode raiding. Gearing through LFR is slow as s*** and damn near impossible to get on a normal raid team.

[Fyersing]

Compare a 4 hour LFR run to a 5 man dungeon where it's easier to communicate with people for starters. The current 10 minute dungeons that blizz has been given are crap, but if they actually made a dungeon 30 minutes... 45 minutes.... or put in wings and such, who knows, they may start being interesting again. Now I know from time to time there will be people that have legit reasons for LFR, but most of the stuff I hear just doesn't make sense. If you are a casual, how do you have time to do something that takes 3 or 4 hours per wing? And then do all 4 wings on top of that? The other main reason is lore, which I think blizz has demonstrated they can make just as good from 5 mans, as they've done in places such as the Well of Eternity, Sunwell Plateau, Halls of Reflection, etc.

The pay off? You take out the biggest toxic environment in the game, and encourage people to stop afk'ing and go out there and actually play the game lol. I know not all will agree, but IMO, it makes the most sense.

This very simple two-paragraph statement should be sticky'd at the top of every thread with the letters "LFR" therein.

[Deleted]

Agreed. Although I would scrap LFR altogether, and add more and relatively hard dungeons for gearing up, and super hard dungeons for epics.

- - - Updated - - -

The super hard dungeons would still be doable by "casuals" and replace LFR.

[yetgdhfgh]

LFR isnt going anywhere no matter how many of these threads pop up.

[nekobaka]

LFR isnt going anywhere no matter how many of these threads pop up.

Well it is getting demoted to tourist mode. Hopefully that will mean non-raiders will actually have non-raiding alternatives instead of finding themselves back to being funneled into LFR.