Something I feel I need to address (LFR)

[makketota]

Well look at it this way... your fun is maybe impairing others fun. Many (myself included), got LFR as something that you just need to get over with and then move on. Wiping due to low dps is then making me have less fun. If you are lowest DPS in LFR you are doing something wrong and should look to improve it. If you get kicked from LFR for too low dps you are without a doubt performing terribly and should really improve yourself.

WoW is a team-game as much as it seems not to be these days. And in a team-game everyone should try to do their best for the group. It is the same as on Dota/LoL. You may do something wacky that fucks over the team for fun, but your fun will only make it worse for everyone else. And you have no right to make the game worse for others for your own enjoyment.

This is what needs to be fixed in some way. I don't do LFR, even if it has gear that would be an upgrade. Rather have equal ilvl gear drop off end bosses in 5 man heroics tbh.

[Daerio]

This is what needs to be fixed in some way. I don't do LFR, even if it has gear that would be an upgrade. Rather have equal ilvl gear drop off end bosses in 5 man heroics tbh.

Sure. I don't really want to be forced to do LFR any more for gear. What do you think the result of that would be?

LFR groups would suck even worse. Blizzard would probably have to lower the difficulty even more.

I understand there's some really shitty players that just want to be able to AFK through LFR to have fun and see the content, but really, should those people be catered to? Is that in the best interest of the game? Does the blame REALLY lie with the people who votekick others so they don't have to spend 3 hours to clear 3 bosses?

[Ahhdurr]

People get kicked from LFR for a bunch of reasons. Don't do things that will get you kicked.

[Nzete]

As a healer, a dps "having fun" is usually a reason for a vote kick.

Picture this: shadow priest is "having some fun" before Dark Shaman. He proceeds to halo, rocket boots, and disperse in some combination to make sure he pulls many, many packs of trash. He dies. The tanks and healers are now left with minutes of frantic work blowing every cooldown that they have and wishing for more to try and make it not a raid wipe because one shadow priest was "having fun".

[ComputerNerd]

People get kicked from LFR for a bunch of reasons. Don't do things that will get you kicked.

People can be kicked from a group because they bought a store item.
People can be kicked because they criticise someone with a sufficient majority in friends to support them.
There are reasons for kicking which are simply wrong.

[pallyopness]

Yup all of those are deserving of kicks, especially that Druid. As for the amount of DPS, really if it's 10-20k, chances are the player is auto-attacking, or doing the cast-youtube-cast-WMP-death rotation. This also equals a kick. Though I like what you said about warning them first and trying to get them to shape up/switch specs lest they get the kick.


They call this Projection Bias. Just cause you're a good player with 55k AFK DPS doesn't give you the right to project your ways unto other players. Try to see it from their perspective. You spend a lot of time helping people with stat priorities and stuff, that's good. But it seems to have made you expect everyone to automatically go seeking this info, and if they don't and their DPS suffers, whoever kicked them is justified.

It's not okay, even if you like to 'help' people. Your problem is with the game's design, it allows players to be able to go LFR shortly after hitting 90. Some don't even know what 'stat priority' means. This is why it's only okay to kick AFK/auto-attackers/spec-abusers-for-fast-queues. So wrong kicking a person for low DPS when that person is trying.

edit - Also you guys realize this is the whole point of Determination? Ensuring the kill even with low DPS, thereby reducing kicks/toxic behavior? Pretty sure Blizz thought when implementing this "let's trust humanity." Apparently, asshole trumps every time.

It is also game design that allows us to kick low dps players, thus, there is nothing wrong with this either. So you are pretty much contradicting yourself. If someone is pulling abysmally low dps regardless of reason it is every right of the group to kick them. That is why it is a vote to kick. Obviously the decision was made by more than a couple of players that they were too low to proceed.

[Ahhdurr]

People can be kicked from a group because they bought a store item.
People can be kicked because they criticise someone with a sufficient majority in friends to support them.
There are reasons for kicking which are simply wrong.

I'm sure your imaginary examples are a huge problem. Certainly these nonexistant occurances can legitimately be compared with actual reasons why people get kicked like AFKing, horrible DPS, or generally being a dick.

[Sansnom]

This is what needs to be fixed in some way. I don't do LFR, even if it has gear that would be an upgrade. Rather have equal ilvl gear drop off end bosses in 5 man heroics tbh.

I rather they share loot lockout with Flex/Normal/Heroic. If it shares the gear drop as heroic dungeons, then people who cannot raid above LFR for whatever reason, would mean their progression would stop dead.

Why should it be okay for people who cannot raid in Flexi/Normal/Heroic have their character progression stopped? This game is not just about the people can raid Flex/Normal/Heroic.

[Deleted]

I like LFR because it allows you to see the content if you aren't able to play often, or have a guild behind you. Although, the actual experience is messy and disorganized which ruins the classic raiding feel.

[lsnderick]

Im sorry to say this.. but in 496 gear most classes do around ~50k dps on heroic dummy, single target, unbuffed, and without blowing cooldowns.. not 100k. That's what should be expected in LFR.

[Redpanda]

I'm sure your imaginary examples are a huge problem. Certainly these nonexistant occurances can legitimately be compared with actual reasons why people get kicked like AFKing, horrible DPS, or generally being a dick.

you missed the store bought xmog helm forum hate train friend, and you get a bunch of potatoes together and one potato with a voice and the others will spud it up behind whatever he/she/it says.

@Kinneer wow is a team based game at its core if youre not contributing to the team or raid then you might just get cut. Would it be acceptable for me to join your group and do what ever i please even though I cant raid flex norm or heroic

[Krazzorx]

Remember that current LFR is designed to actually be a challenge (relatively speaking). They designed it for 2 groups: for people to see the content, but importantly also for what we would now call flex raiders. What this means is LFR was designed around people actually putting forth effort. Blizzard expects you to actually put forth some effort to kill it.

[pallyopness]

Im sorry to say this.. but in 496 gear most classes do around ~50k dps on heroic dummy, single target, unbuffed, and without blowing cooldowns.. not 100k. That's what should be expected in LFR.

Sorry, I hate to say this but you are most definitely incorrect in this statement. In MSV all my raiders were in the 80k range....that was with blues.....as in 463 gear....

[Krazzorx]

Sorry, I hate to say this but you are most definitely incorrect in this statement. In MSV all my raiders were in the 80k range....that was with blues.....as in 463 gear....

Gemmed and enchanted though by people who knew what they are doing (which is the minority)

Anyways, if you are wiping to enrage because of dps issues, then ya the bottom have to go.

[Issari]

I don't generally make it a point to kick SOLELY because of low dps. As others have said, a stack or two of determination will almost always fix that issue.

I am curious to know what you and your friends are defining as "having fun", though. There are a LOT of things a dps can do to ruin a run for everybody...like pulling extra trash, spamming obnoxious jokes, ranting on other players...I could go on. And those things I generally don't have much patience for. And, in my experience, your average LFR group reacts pretty similarly. I'd LIKE to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I find it very difficult to do so, given the information you've provided.

[Heladys]

But see how most of you are responding is exactly my point. People take this game too seriously like if it wasn't even a game but a constant competition. We were clearing bosses. The only problem was that people weren't dodging what they were supposed to or targeting the right adds it wasn't DPS and it being our first time in this raid it's only natural to fail it the first time. People just looks at the bottom of their DPS charts and see those 3-5 people and automatically say "yeah, that's the problem right there" and not think that maybe people aren't doing the fight the right way. People act like if you want to play this game you have to be the best there is or else you get kicked from everything. What kind of video game is that? And then to say "well if you don't like it form your own raid guild" is just plain inconsiderate because none of us have the time to maintain a proper raiding guild which is why we're in LFR in the first place.

Man I feel like I'm the only person on WoW that just plays to have fun and everybody else is like super serious about everything. Is it so wrong for a person to just have fun playing without worrying about his/her performance? And about that dungeon journal, yeah I read it all the fucking time but if you want to fully understand the fight you have to experience it for yourself. Half the time I read the thing I'm just like "uh, ok" because since I never did the raid I don't know what each move is really like. If this game is such a "group effort" game maybe Blizzard should advertise that in their ads for WoW to warn people that if you don't meet your groups needs or you're not willing to go on youtube to research each fight in a raid, you might as well walk away from the game right now.

I can understand striving to be the best player you can be in a game but I'm the type of person who just plays game to experience the story and have fun with it, not to compete with everyone. But I guess when it comes to WoW you can't do that because this is World of fucking Warcraft and here we mean serious business.

You can "play to have fun" if you're doing enough to justify your presence and help assure the group succeeds. You don't need to be a superstar but you need to be a meaningful contributor or GTFO for someone who will be.

- - - Updated - - -

Im sorry to say this.. but in 496 gear most classes do around ~50k dps on heroic dummy, single target, unbuffed, and without blowing cooldowns.. not 100k. That's what should be expected in LFR.

How many single target unbuffed situations occur in LFR? We'll wait.

[Giscoicus]

People can be kicked from a group because they bought a store item.
People can be kicked because they criticise someone with a sufficient majority in friends to support them.
There are reasons for kicking which are simply wrong.

In your opinion

Now I wouldnt kick them or remove them as a friend, but if a friend bought a store helm I would rip on them a lot.

Group wants you out, you are gone.

[Deleted]

I can feel your pain, but in the end of the day...its a game. And in a game sometimes you lose and sometimes you win. It is no longer a game or an experience if u know for a fact you will win 100% of the times.
When I was younger I had this problem, every time I lost in every game a would rage and be mad (league of legends, Street Fighter and Tekken online) and only with time I learned that it is OK to lose...because you lost while playing the game. Which is the fun part!.
Its not the outcome or the results of the game that make us play, its the "playing it" and the fun of doing so.

About your case, I only agree with the kicks if the DPS was reaaaaaaally horrible. And a reflect of total indifference about the game mechanics and how the game works.
If you were kicked just because you were the last 2 placed DPS in the damage meter, then I feel really sorry for you, those guys were morons. Only specific raid bosses are a gear check or a DPS run so it was really a dick move if you had decently mid/low DPS.
BUT I totally agree with kicks if everyone felt it was hurting the raid too much or if the DPS was incredibly low. Ok, you want to have fun, but there are 24 people fighting alongside you for one goal! If you want to have fun alone nothing in this game is stopping you. But if you want to do "Teamplay based content" you need to learn a couple things about the game to not hurt your team.

[Pony Soldier]

It seems a lot of people don't know what I meant by having fun. No we weren't being jackasses or anything of that nature. We were just doing the raid just like everybody else was which was FUN to us. People still consider WoW to be fun right? Anyway, it was our first time doing this raid so naturally we probably looked like noobs during the boss fights. So for the record, no, we were just raiding like any other normal raider would. Yes my friends did do low DPS, one of them apparently was at 30k (I don't use DPS charts) and that was mainly because his gear really sucked and what do you do when you want to get better gear? I totally understand that is really low but my question is if we were clearing bosses with no problems given the exceptions that we wiped a couple times because people weren't paying attention to ground effects or moving where they were supposed to or targeting the right enemies (nothing to do with DPS) what does DPS matter? We're here to beat the bosses and clear the raid like everybody else right? So as long as that gets done what does a few low DPS matter in the long run? This is what I never understood. Even though you are doing a decent job clearing the dungeon or raid people will look at the few people at the bottom of their DPS charts who have low DPS and kick them because of it. Why?

Then the other issue is when we wipe they'll complain about the low DPS right away instead of looking at the people who weren't paying attention to what they were supposed to be doing like moving out of fire or whatever is on the ground that hurts them or targeting the right enemies. So you mean to tell me everyone died just because 3 people's DPS was low? Come on. We were trying our best to avoid everything and to make sure we were targeting the right enemies and my friends get kicked because of it. And keep in mind this was our first time in here so half the time I was just figuring out what was going on, running around avoiding things instead of casting. If people were doing what they were supposed to be doing and everything and we're still wiping constantly THEN I would look at the DPS and see if we can replace any of the low DPS. Hell, even I would volunteer to leave if it came to that. But that wasn't the case here.

[Trix]

Yes my friends did do low DPS, one of them apparently was at 30k

Haha no wonder you got kicked. To enter SoO you need a certain level of gear, so don't give us that excuse.

Yes, people play this game to have fun, and playing with someone who does 30k DPS on Garrosh is far from fun. In LFR you don't need to avoid shit, you may as well all just stack up on the aoe damage and aoe everything down.