Solo players are majority in MMOs...

[Kelimbror]

I cannot say much because I'm bound by NDA, but the game has came a long way. From the first day I was in back in May til now, its a huuuuuuuuuuuuge difference.

You assume I don't have just as accurate knowledge as you do, so nothing you say would make a difference in my opinion. Counter point: coming a long way when you still have thousands of miles to go isn't something to celebrate when people are going to be charged a box cost and a subscription cost in an obvious cash grab. I wanted Wildstar to be amazing because I like the style. If it doesn't get pushed back another year, it's going to be a monumental failure. And regarding Devs: there's many things to be said for their double speak, obvious marketing BS, and actual flip flopping. This isn't the place, however.

[Fullmetal89]

Not surprised. I use to play more with people back during Vanilla/BC but as the years went by I realized I could get so much more done if just kept to myself. Quite frankly I enjoy playing solo a hell of a lot more than with people, nowadays the community is extremely toxic. Other than Flex I pretty much hate group content. Lots of guilds now are too obnoxious with their requirements, or they do shit like hand out loot only to those who apply to their website. Anyways, I like conversing with people from time to time on trade/guild/general but I almost always quest solo and spend the majority of my time solo. Grouping up with random people is too much of a hassle 90% of the time, unless you it's a group with people that have an objective mindset.

[Kelimbror]

Ah, I get it: everything that supports my opinion is real, and everything that contradicts it is personal anecdotes. I get it, WoW community, I get it.

I'm not sure you understand what an anecdote is. We both are giving anecdotes. They are both equally irrelevant to the truth.

[Ceethemage]

..as said by Wildstar dev: "And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were)."
http://www.wildstar-online.com/uk/ne...f_the_game.php

How do you feel about more people tend to play solo in MMO? Tbh, I dont know where he get that info from, but surely not out of the blue sky.

Personally I prefer a mix of both when playing. I do enjoy the solo experience, but If I don't have some group experience or playing with my friends I can also get bored.

[Fencers]

If someone plays an MMO solo due to lack of time, it's just plain nonsense. Misconception.

It may not be accurate to such players to say they play solo for lack of time. But rather they play solo because they don't want to "waste" time. Whether that be in queues, looking for more players, need classes X/Y/Z or skills A/B/C, potential group failure, et cetera.

Most likely it is a desire to, put it in low terms, "get to the action" in an MMO. The phenomenon is based on immediacy in any rationalization.

[Lane]

We call them "good" because they are the best among what we see. But they are hardly good, compared to players playing really challenging, punishing and competitive games.

Okay, now you're just making assumptions about the people I've played with, my grouping experiences, and even what qualifies as a "good" player. Your mind is obviously made up that things are exactly how you say they are in every case, whether factual or not.

I have never heard of anyone quitting a game because it was too hard

Cataclysm was tedious and I quit, in part, due to that tedium (also because Cataclysm was just a god awful expansion in just about every possible respect). As Sharuko said earlier, "the best thing to do is be challenging but not frustrating." Cata was most definitely the latter, at least for me.

Wildstar remains to be seen. I've certainly seen plenty of people clamoring for every fight to be epic. Again, that is not hard, that is tedious. When you have to kill 20 of something, for example, and each fight is taking a minute+ because of added "difficulty" that means it just took you 20+ minutes to do a single quest. Tedious! And yes, I would quit over that, because that is not fun!

[May90]

Okay, now you're just making assumptions about the people I've played with, my grouping experiences, and even what qualifies as a "good" player. Your mind is obviously made up that things are exactly how you say they are in every case, whether factual or not.

It is a basic logical thing, not an "assumption". Put 1,000,000 people who have never played Chess in a room and make them play with each other all the time for 10 years. Some will be bad, some will be good, some will be among top 100 and will be considered very good. Now match the best of them against Anand - and he will be crushed. He was "the best among the worst", but he was never really good in comparison to real professionals.

Now, I have never inspected every WoW player, so I cannot say for sure whether top players there are good or bad. But, as the nature works, living organisms in non-challenging environment never really grow up, and, most of the time, degrade. You can see it in Africa: a continent with incredible climate, a lot of animals, vegetables and water - and you see how they live today. They had no environmental challenges, so they never really developed. Now, there are certainly some scientists in Africa that can be considered masters of mind in their country - but they are not even close to such titans as Einstein. Now, I do not blame them - they have never had a choice what their environment is going to be. But they certainly can immigrate to more successful continents, and WoW players just as well can migrate to more challenging and skill-based games.

Cataclysm was tedious and I quit, in part, due to that tedium (also because Cataclysm was just a god awful expansion in just about every possible respect). As Sharuko said earlier, "the best thing to do is be challenging but not frustrating." Cata was most definitely the latter, at least for me.

"Tedious" is not "challenging", it is "tedious". It does not require any more skill than "non-tedious" game, it just requires more time spent on mindless grinding.

Wildstar remains to be seen. I've certainly seen plenty of people clamoring for every fight to be epic. Again, that is not hard, that is tedious. When you have to kill 20 of something, for example, and each fight is taking a minute+ because of added "difficulty" that means it just took you 20+ minutes to do a single quest. Tedious! And yes, I would quit over that, because that is not fun!

I've seen a few Wildstar videos on Youtube. "I was not impressed" (C). It feels just like what WoW 2 could be. Zero skill, ages of grinding, etc.

[cabyio]

No. I get a picture. I certainly don't get the picture. Regardless, personal anecdotes are worthless. I have several friends who have quit playing WoW and some that have returned. Not a single one of them has listed 'too easy' as a motivator for anything, let alone the sole cause of the phenomena.

I think its funny that you say:

Regardless, personal anecdotes are worthless.

and then proceed to provide such anecdotes:

I have several friends who have quit playing WoW and some that have returned. Not a single one of them has listed 'too easy' as a motivator for anything, let alone the sole cause of the phenomena.

[mickybrighteyes]

I think its funny that you say:



and then proceed to provide such anecdotes:

I think that's further example of how pointless the claim is.

[Kelimbror]

I think its funny that you say

I think it's funny that you cba to read all of the posts on one page before responding:

We both are giving anecdotes. They are both equally irrelevant to the truth.

You know what they say...better to remain silent and etc, etc.

[Lane]

It is a basic logical thing, not an "assumption". Put 1,000,000 people who have never played Chess in a room and make them play with each other all the time for 10 years. Some will be bad, some will be good, some will be among top 100 and will be considered very good. Now match the best of them against Anand - and he will be crushed. He was "the best among the worst", but he was never really good in comparison to real professionals.

You're assuming that the people playing WoW have never played anything else and that the "best" player in WoW is still only "the best among the worst" even if it turns out they're also highly skilled in games you would consider more challenging/competitive. Most WoW players I've known WoW was not their first or only video game, so yes, that is a big assumption and not applicable to a significant percentage of WoW players especially considering the millions who play.

Also, the definition of difficult/challenging content is subjective depending on who you ask. I've certainly read plenty of posts describing what someone would consider an ideal encounter and to me it reads like a frustrating waste of time.

[nekobaka]

It may not be accurate to such players to say they play solo for lack of time. But rather they play solo because they don't want to "waste" time. Whether that be in queues, looking for more players, need classes X/Y/Z or skills A/B/C, potential group failure, et cetera.

Most likely it is a desire to, put it in low terms, "get to the action" in an MMO. The phenomenon is based on immediacy in any rationalization.

I do find it to be somewhat interesting that in situations with queues that players would rather spend time in a queue on the bases of a perceived time savings even when they are not saving time and might even be spending double the time waiting for a group. Some might use that time to do something else, but for a time limited player who is limited in short time chunks the task of walking away to do something else or do something in game is still ticking time.

This lack of time thing also plays part in the go go go mentality and preference to remove a player that needs help rather than help them. Commonly such behavior gets associated with cooperative players who are viewed to have more time on their hands which depending on the case can be true or false. Some players will group together with the same players on a schedule in order to minimize wasted time and improve efficiency so that they do not spend as much time on a given task.

There is another factor between those that lack time and those who have time is how laid back they are. A more laid back person is going to be okay with road bumps and slow downs despite their limited time. The game is more about the journey to them rather than the destination and the need for instant action or instant gratification.

[May90]

You're assuming that the people playing WoW have never played anything else and that the "best" player in WoW is still only "the best among the worst" even if it turns out they're also highly skilled in games you would consider more challenging/competitive. Most WoW players I've known WoW was not their first or only video game, so yes, that is a big assumption and not applicable to a significant percentage of WoW players especially considering the millions who play.

I would say, WoW is the first game with combat system involving multiple boss phases and looooooong skill rotations, so, unless one has come to WoW from another similar MMO (that is basically a WoW-clone, so it is irrelevant), many things will be new to him/her. Regardless of this, no matter what skill a person has before coming to a game, this skill later adjusts, and it may drop significantly in easy games. For example, my APM in Starcraft 2 is about 120, but when I recently replayed Warcraft 2 campaign, it dropped to about 30: the campaign is so easy that I just didn't feel any need to try any hard. Now, give me 5 years of playing Warcraft 2 and not playing Starcraft 2 - and most of my skill will be definitely lost.

Also, the definition of difficult/challenging content is subjective depending on who you ask. I've certainly read plenty of posts describing what someone would consider an ideal encounter and to me it reads like a frustrating waste of time.

Sure. But there is "easy for someone" and "easy for everyone". If during leveling you can rarely die, even if you are pretty terrible, it is "easy for someone". But if you cannot die no matter what you do, even if you go AFK (I tested it: I could not die in Cata zones as a Hunter by going AFK in the middle of an ogre cave) - it is "easy for everyone". Nothing can be called "hard" if you simply have zero chance to fail, right?

[Deleted]

Well, I wasn't addressing mob tagging. I've been playing GW2 for the past year and a half, so I haven't had to deal with that in a long time.

Typically, the way MMOs "encourage" socializing is with group activities. The problem is that since most people (soloers) aren't interested in group activities, and there aren't enough 'socializers' for them either, they have to make the activities enticing to soloers by adding increased rewards. This leads to soloers begrudgingly grouping with 'socializers' because they want said rewards, not because they want to group or socialize. The end result is no one is really happy. Socializers aren't getting to socialize and soloers are grouping when they'd rather not.

I suppose I should have asked what you suggest to encourage more socialization because group content/increased reliance on other players is certainly not accomplishing it.

Virtual friends can be great, sure, but the current formula isn't very conducive to making them. Group quests and dungeons at 5-30 minutes isn't enough time to develop a rapport with anyone and not many people are going to be interested in a game that requires a copious amount of co-dependence. Even with guilds, maybe I've just been unlucky, but it took 5 years of playing WoW to find a group of people I could bear to be around and vice versa. I suppose if you're gifted at talking with strangers and making quick friends that must be nice, but it's really difficult for some of us and no amount of "encouragement" would change that.

Encouragement would help. It's in our very nature to be social. It's that the game outright discourages you from being social that causes the lack of socialisation. Even the group activities are designed to be accomplishable with as little interaction as possible. I remember back before the Dungeon Finder, that a lot of interaction would spring up from making your way to the dungeon. Finding the group was a chore, but once you got one that downtime as you were making your way to the dungeon could be quite fun. Why not just make the dungeon finder put you in a group with other people who want to run a dungeon, and then you have to make your own way there? Inconvenient, but encouraging social interaction. I believe convenience can often be sacrificed to provide a better game experience. Of course in WoW we're so coddled with convenience that taking it away would just result in whining. Something for another game.

Other stuff like public groups and auto-grouping would also help. You'd be free to leave if you wanted, but having a list of local allies automatically pop up would encourage people to say hi. And what about newbie guilds, where new players automatically get invited, providing an ample supply of potential friends. As server technology is getting better we're moving into the realm of single server games as well, massively increasing the chances of bumping into other players.

[mickybrighteyes]

I would say, WoW is the first game with combat system involving multiple boss phases and looooooong skill rotations,

the first 'game'? umm... not really. It may be the first MMO to show off an ability system the way it does that some people experience. But the model for multi-phase boss battles and stringing abilties together has been around through gaming generations.

edit:
I don't believe wow has done much with respect to combat that would be called a world first in gaming. It's boss battle design and racial options are about as original as a pizza shop in new york.

[Edge-]

You can see it in Africa: a continent with incredible climate, a lot of animals, vegetables and water - and you see how they live today. They had no environmental challenges, so they never really developed. Now, there are certainly some scientists in Africa that can be considered masters of mind in their country - but they are not even close to such titans as Einstein.

I highly recommend reading Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, as this is a very incorrect assessment of the history of a region. Most of Africa isn't abundant in the kinds of natural resources that are conducive to large, stationary populations.

[Sargiean]

Most of my activity in WoW IS done solo, which is sad. BUT the MMO part comes (For me at least) with guild and other player interaction supplementing that solo content. Also, just because I play solo does not mean I prefer it. Getting on Skype with someone to play is much more fun (for me) than going solo.

[May90]

I highly recommend reading Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond, as this is a very incorrect assessment of the history of a region. Most of Africa isn't abundant in the kinds of natural resources that are conducive to large, stationary populations.

There are many different interpretations, and it is no use arguing which is correct and which is not. But the fact remains: Africa that has quite a lot is in a terrible state, while Iceland that has nothing is on top of the world. It is easy to notice the tendency. And it is only logical that competition breeds development, while lack of it breeds stagnancy and gradual decay.

[Lane]

It's in our very nature to be social.

People say that, but not everyone wants to be social and not everyone is social under the same conditions. Personally, I'm much more apt to join a conversation in a global chat channel than I am to respond to someone in my party saying "hi".

I remember back before the Dungeon Finder, that a lot of interaction would spring up from making your way to the dungeon.

Maybe if you were Alliance going to do Scarlet Monastery. Usually it degrades into how much longer we have to wait for someone, can we go ahead and start without them, etc. Pull!

Other stuff like public groups and auto-grouping would also help. You'd be free to leave if you wanted, but having a list of local allies automatically pop up would encourage people to say hi.

Rift had that and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.

And what about newbie guilds, where new players automatically get invited, providing an ample supply of potential friends.

You are one of those people, aren't you? :P The chatty type who can converse about anything and gets along with almost everyone? I am the antithesis of that.

If there were a game designed to your specifications, I could not play it, and you most likely would not want to play one designed to mine.

I want to go into social situations by choice, not because I have to in order to accomplish something. Even a public grouping system is forcing me into a situation I don't want to be in if it's not at least asking me first if I want to join said public group. Same with the guild suggestion. I'll come out of my shell when I want to, not because a game is trying to pull me out with pliers. ;P

[Deleted]

People say that, but not everyone wants to be social and not everyone is social under the same conditions. Personally, I'm much more apt to join a conversation in a global chat channel than I am to respond to someone in my party saying "hi".



Maybe if you were Alliance going to do Scarlet Monastery. Usually it degrades into how much longer we have to wait for someone, can we go ahead and start without them, etc. Pull!



Rift had that and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.



You are one of those people, aren't you? :P The chatty type who can converse about anything and gets along with almost everyone? I am the antithesis of that.

If there were a game designed to your specifications, I could not play it, and you most likely would not want to play one designed to mine.

I want to go into social situations by choice, not because I have to in order to accomplish something. Even a public grouping system is forcing me into a situation I don't want to be in if it's not at least asking me first if I want to join said public group. Same with the guild suggestion. I'll come out of my shell when I want to, not because a game is trying to pull me out with pliers. ;P

I'm really not. I (or rather my subconscious) am very picky about who I socialise with and who I don't. Less so in an online environment, but still. Not one of those things force you to socialise. You'd be free to leave the newbie guild, free to leave the auto-group and no harm would be done by you just having to take 5 seconds to tick a box. But for other people, many other people I'd wager, those features would really help in making friends.

Ultimately I think that MMORPGs should be marketed to people who want to play with lots of other players. There should be solo sections of course for when you're feeling like a bit of alone time and if the odd player thinks that it's worth the price of them game for just that then fine - but if the massively multiplayer part of the game isn't the biggest part of it, what is the point? Why not just have a single player game with some multiplayer matchmaking function?

I think it's too late to get any semblance of socialisation in wow. It's simply too old and people are too set in their ways. Something for a new MMO I think.