Garry 10h nerfs inc

[nightfalls]

Some of our raiders are also still using Flex and Normal trinkets. RNG is... RNG. Oh and you can always coin. Good luck coining trinket as a hybrid who also uses spirit though. 1/5 or 1/6 chance vs 1/3.

Right, I mean, let's not also forget that I was definitely not 578 when we killed Garrosh (I believe I was at 576) and also I have been farming more heroic bosses for quite a bit longer than Jurik has.

[Deleted]

Which breakpoints does 10 man have then, exactly? We just started progressing it, but it really doesn't seem too different. Sure, jade temple is tight, but we're on alts that we can't play as well as our mains and have less gear than we had back then because we've been progressing at a break-neck pace.
That being said, I don't see where the DPS check is harsher apart from perhaps temple, and where the other "breakpoints" are supposed to be. The only thing that makes any major difference in the fight is skipping empowered whirls, after all - and going 1-1, 2-1 or 2-2 must be the "major" breakpoints..

Been a bit inactive on forums, so kinda late reply but.

It depends on your gear and skill of the group. If you are doing the boss fight in 10 man after you have been doing 25 man heroic with 25 man heroic gear (if I understand you correctly?), you will not notice any of the difficult parts of the fight, it should be trivial to you with that gear. Unless you are doing 10 with alts or something. The biggest difference was that the dps checks for 10 heroic garrosh in 10 heroic gear was a lot tougher than 25 man garrosh in 25 man gear, but if you would have had the same gear in both difficulties, it would probably have been about the same, but that was not the case.

A lot of people in this thread seem to think the most important breakpoint is getting 1 whirl in P3. When we did it, that was not even possible with our gear.
I would not say that is important at all, we even had 3 whirls, but getting below 3 whirls was preferred.
The biggest breakpoints would be getting to P2 before third set of adds in P1, we at probably about 30% of our wipes right there.
Other than that it was very important for us to get it below 20% before the second transition to quickly get it to p3 cleanly after that, I know a lot of guilds got the gear now to ignore this however. This mattered a lot less in 25 man since they kited it anyway.
When we did it, it was also very important to get ToJS around 20 energy, that is something you can completely ignore now.

My guild have gone 25 man now, I am not raiding right now, but from what I heard from them and I trust them over any forum poster, 25 man garrosh was a complete joke for their new raid team with 15-20 new players, even with all the trials and low geared rerolls etc. They thought it was much easier than both Siegecrafter (which is not that hard in 25), which should say something.

Overall, the issues with 10 Garrosh revolved around 10 man guilds reaching it with about 10 lower item level in the start, and nowadays they are maybe 3-5 item levels behind, and the 25 man version is definately not tuned for that increased item level, especially considering the kiting.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm sure guilds who did it in 570 ilvl instead of the ~574 average we rolled with needed to have a game plan for dealing with P3 EWC #2, and paid for that strategy with dozens of extra pulls at 10-15 minutes a pop.

Why is the second whirl such an issue? :/ We even killed the adds on the second whirl.

Our strat was:

Whirl 1: Personals+light raid cd
Whirl 2: A lot of raid cds
Whirl 3: Everything that was left

If we had the third whirl, it was usually chaos, only think we survived the third whirl once with 10 players alive, granted we only got the third whirl like 3-4 times. But the second whirl is quite easily managable.

[Dracodraco]

Are we talking about stroking DPS meters here? How is 5% "overall" damage a positive, when the only damage that really matters is boss damage.

Silly rayanne. 5% overall damage also means you'd lose 5% of the damage done to the boss - it's just that, every bit of damage done is lowered by 5% by choosing to take a tank over another dps.

Been a bit inactive on forums, so kinda late reply but.

It depends on your gear and skill of the group. If you are doing the boss fight in 10 man after you have been doing 25 man heroic with 25 man heroic gear (if I understand you correctly?), you will not notice any of the difficult parts of the fight, it should be trivial to you with that gear. Unless you are doing 10 with alts or something. The biggest difference was that the dps checks for 10 heroic garrosh in 10 heroic gear was a lot tougher than 25 man garrosh in 25 man gear, but if you would have had the same gear in both difficulties, it would probably have been about the same, but that was not the case.

A lot of people in this thread seem to think the most important breakpoint is getting 1 whirl in P3. When we did it, that was not even possible with our gear.
I would not say that is important at all, we even had 3 whirls, but getting below 3 whirls was preferred.
The biggest breakpoints would be getting to P2 before third set of adds in P1, we at probably about 30% of our wipes right there.
Other than that it was very important for us to get it below 20% before the second transition to quickly get it to p3 cleanly after that, I know a lot of guilds got the gear now to ignore this however. This mattered a lot less in 25 man since they kited it anyway.
When we did it, it was also very important to get ToJS around 20 energy, that is something you can completely ignore now.

My guild have gone 25 man now, I am not raiding right now, but from what I heard from them and I trust them over any forum poster, 25 man garrosh was a complete joke for their new raid team with 15-20 new players, even with all the trials and low geared rerolls etc. They thought it was much easier than both Siegecrafter (which is not that hard in 25), which should say something.

Overall, the issues with 10 Garrosh revolved around 10 man guilds reaching it with about 10 lower item level in the start, and nowadays they are maybe 3-5 item levels behind, and the 25 man version is definately not tuned for that increased item level, especially considering the kiting.

- - - Updated - - -



Why is the second whirl such an issue? :/ We even killed the adds on the second whirl.

Our strat was:

Whirl 1: Personals+light raid cd
Whirl 2: A lot of raid cds
Whirl 3: Everything that was left

If we had the third whirl, it was usually chaos, only think we survived the third whirl once with 10 players alive, granted we only got the third whirl like 3-4 times. But the second whirl is quite easily managable.

We aren't doing it with 25 man gear, though - we are doing it with 10 man gear (it's a full alt raid without mains interferring for the most part), so you misunderstood that part. Essentially, we're doing "everything" as you were - apart, of course, from the nerfs that the instance has already received.
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...norea/advanced this is my tank, you can check the amount of heroic kills that we've roughly had to get geared on it.

That being said, you are severely over estimating the difference in item levels between the guilds. The difference between Method's and Paragons item levels when they killed Garrosh was closer to 1-2 item levels (accounting for gidget's no heroic kills and method's dk going into full PvP gear when relogging). Heck, if you compare number 10 to kill Garrosh 25 and 10 heroic, Set sail For Fail and some russian guild I can't pronounce, the Russian guild actually has *more* ilvl than the 25 man.
Straight from wowprogress, top 20:

1: 566.65
2: 568.08
3: 567.63
4: 568.87
5: 570.14
6: 569.93
7: 569.91
8: 570.38
9: ???? (no data on genuine).
10: 569.69
11: 570.24
12: 570.5
13: ???? (no data on Not so Serious)
14: 571.48
15: ???? (no data on Rapid Eye Movement).
16: 571.82
17: 572.24
18: 572.11
19: 572.44
20: ???? (no data on Razzia).
Excluding the no data guilds, that's ~ 570.2 ilvl for the top 20 on average.
For 10 man:

1: 565.66
2: 569.52
3: 567.02
4: ???? (no data on Moonzlinge).
5: 571.44
6: 569.80
7: ???? (no data on Refuge).
8: 569.32
9: 569.23
10: 570.33
11: 571.83
12: 570.74
13: 572.35
14: 570.34
15: 570.53
16: 572.07
17: ???? (no data on Impact).
18: 569.96
19: 569.76
20: 572.95

Average ~ 570.16

While not entirely accurate, as some data are missing, it gives you a good idea of the gear the top 20 had. It's... Remarkably close between the two sizes. As for kills, 25 man killed it 4 days prior to 10 man, and the #20 kills were 29 october and 5 november respectively - a week or so apart (so there's a difference of maybe 1 reset worth of gear, at best).
Really, it's quite clear that the "BUT 25 MAN HAD SO MUCH BETTER GEAR" is largely bullshit when you look at the data we have. Even if it's slightly tilted due to missing data, it's not going to be with more than one item level.
Of course, if you compare your own guild to one that killed Garrosh at the same time, there may be a much bigger disparity in item levels, 1 to 1 - but on average, the first month worth of heroic kills were about as equal gearwise as they're going to get - which is amazing, really. I'd expected a much bigger spread than this (hadn't run the numbers beforeman).

As for your guild going 25 man and facerolling garrosh - of course they are. They're on their main characters (for the most part I assume) and have done it before, and I bet most of the trials have done it before in other guilds, too. I've been talking about a whole new set of characters, where almost everyone is playing an "unfamilliar" role to them. Not super-geared (and let's face it, when 10 mans have 576-577 avg now that's still super geared in 25 man compared to how it felt when you progressed) ones that you already know exactly how to deal with stuff with.

As an example, our alt raid is 570-1 average at the moment (give or take some .'s, cba adding up the numbers). Our "competition" is a 12/14 heroic 10 man guild on our dead realm. Their average item level is 574.31, which roughly the same level we got our first garrosh kill with. So it seems quite reasonable that 10 mans that got their kills back around when we did would be +576 (with 2x extra bosses of heroic loot to farm, + far more overall heroic bosses downed). Which, incidentally, IS going to make Garrosh feel like a pushover.

Lastly - the fact that you can survive a third whirl in P3 is, to me, amazing. That would never be an option in 25 man - I actually assumed you had made an error earlier when saying it, and that you were talking about 3 whirls overall, rather than 3 in the last phase <.<. The raid is already on +15 stacks of the debuff when they get to the second whirl and that's rough as fuck all. That'd be +25 on the third, almost 1 shot territory.

[kidsafe]

Oh, and as consata pointed out - your tactic in 10 man involves less movement than ours with kiting does in 25 man, giving us even less dps compared (you can just stand still in 10 untill an add spawns, sidestep, then keep dpsing. We have a 10 second run every whirl with no stopping).

We do this in 10-man, though it's not quite a stack. I usually stand a few feet in front of the rest of the group so I don't have to strafe quite as often. Both 25M and 10M can choose to kill or ignore the minions. The first US/EU 25M kill by <Method> involved no kiting whatsoever, and I maintain that having 20 minions would not be gamebreaking. It would merely push more guilds toward killing the weapons like <Envy> did.

One strat you won't see in 10M that you do see in 25M is the one where everyone just sits on top of Garrosh through an entire empowered whirling corruption and they don't even move for the minions' purple swirls spawning beneath them. This actually seems like the de facto Garrosh 25H P3 strat at this point.

[Dracodraco]

We do this in 10-man, though it's not quite a stack. I usually stand a few feet in front of the rest of the group so I don't have to strafe quite as often. Both 25M and 10M can choose to kill or ignore the adds. The first US/EU 25M kill involved no kiting whatsoever.

Exactly, the first kill(s) involved no kiting, mainly because spending a spot on a tank would be an overall DPS loss, even when killing the adds, if you are able to coordinate as well as Method or BL is (or rather, have enough time to get the coordination down to a science). It's a testament to how difficult coordinating the adds is in reality that most guilds choose to take the dps hit rather than try to coordinate.

[kidsafe]

Exactly, the first kill(s) involved no kiting, mainly because spending a spot on a tank would be an overall DPS loss, even when killing the adds, if you are able to coordinate as well as Method or BL is (or rather, have enough time to get the coordination down to a science). It's a testament to how difficult coordinating the adds is in reality that most guilds choose to take the dps hit rather than try to coordinate.

I'm looking at your earliest tracked kill on WCL and strict damage dealers did an average of ~210M to Garrosh. Mekket did 98.5M, and your lowest dedicated DPS did 178M. I'm pretty sure in this situation, pouring that 132M minion damage back into Garrosh, adding a tank that might do a little lower than Mekket. and removing your worst DPS results in a faster P3 push. Not by much, but still faster.

I don't think Method even considered the DPS check pros and cons. They just decided it wasn't much harder to do it they way they felt was intended. Maybe we should just ask them?

[Deleted]

We were 569.8 on Garrosh iirc in NSS. The ilvl was bought down by a monk alt and 1-2 people who had no real gear.

[Dracodraco]

I'm looking at your earliest tracked kill on WCL and strict damage dealers did an average of ~210M to Garrosh. Mekket did 98.5M, and your lowest dedicated DPS did 178M. I'm pretty sure in this situation, pouring that 132M minion damage back into Garrosh, adding a tank that might do a little lower than Mekket. and removing your worst DPS results in a faster P3 push. Not by much, but still faster.

I don't think Method even considered the DPS check pros and cons. They just decided it wasn't much harder to do it they way they felt was intended. Maybe we should just ask them?

Mekket was a full-time tank, though, and we DID kite on that kill - renewing did 68M dmg to the boss, which is pretty extreme. Our alt-kiter (renewing has "quit" and only shows sometimes) last week did 40M, which is probably more likely for progress.
Do take note that this is also only damage done to the boss in the first 2 phases - he's obviously not pushing dmg during empowered whirls, as he's kiting. He did 12M dmg to garrosh after terrace, as far as I can see, in the log that you're referring to. Taking a mid-table dps during that, like Whiplasher, did 114M dmg to garrosh. It's basicly 100M damage missing "when it matters", and far more overall, I guess.

We were 569.8 on Garrosh iirc in NSS. The ilvl was bought down by a monk alt and 1-2 people who had no real gear.

so basicly, that'd just bring the average levels even closer then. No real "significant change", thanks for the number james <3

[Ashvael]

I'm looking at your earliest tracked kill on WCL and strict damage dealers did an average of ~210M to Garrosh. Mekket did 98.5M, and your lowest dedicated DPS did 178M. I'm pretty sure in this situation, pouring that 132M minion damage back into Garrosh, adding a tank that might do a little lower than Mekket. and removing your worst DPS results in a faster P3 push. Not by much, but still faster.

I don't think Method even considered the DPS check pros and cons. They just decided it wasn't much harder to do it they way they felt was intended. Maybe we should just ask them?

We didn't consider it to be worth the risk. With risk I mean 2 thought processes:
1) Could be hotfixed at any given time since Blizzard is not a big fan of kiting adds forever.
2) Tanks/monk did not consider the tactic to be safe enough. This is probably since we only gave kiting very few tries and didn't finetune it with warlock stuns/aoe grips, etc.

In hindsight we obviously should have invested more time into kiting the adds but it's always a tough call to make since if it doesn't work out/gets hotfixed, you might have wasted 10-20 hours on a useless tactic.

[Deleted]

You can now AFK Terrace in 10-man and still only get 2 EWCs. Sigh.

[Mini]

You get to pick between doing Terrace and getting an extra EWC in Phase 2. Why is there so much QQ about this? For many guilds, it's probably the case that the EWC is actually harder. If not, then afk Terrace. The whole Blackfuse encounter is built around trading which mechanics your raid finds more difficult... This is no different.

The sad part about these nerfs is that they didn't nerf Intermission 1, which is still the hardest part about this encounter (for some comps).

As a random aside, it's also probably possible to push the boss to 10% before Terrace phase happens at all!

[Deleted]

"...Said the 10 man raider who had not done a single 25 man heroic boss this tier"
If nothing else, you'd be a fool to think paragons was harder in 10 than 25. Our alts hit 12/14 heroic last week (did siege normal before we killed thok heroic as we thought it'd take us longer), and we killed Paragons 10 heroic in *6* attempts - 3 of those were missing skeer's dps check because our average item level was about 567 (which would be lower than what we hit 25 man heroic paragons with 4 months ago, judging by our 568 avg ilvl siegecrafter kill back then). It's a joke of a fight compared to 25 man, mainly because the scorpion used correctly just messes the entire encounter up something fierce.
On top of that, purely due to the OPness of scorpion, our 10 man kill was faster than any 25 man kill we've ever done - with 11 item level avg less than our mains.

We converted from 10 to 25 man, by sucking another 10 man guild 2 weeks ago. On the same week we cleared the whole place without any trouble.. Paragons cost us like 3 or 4 tries top... its the same fight, just the chance of someone dying is higher.

[Deleted]

Dracodraco rocking the contents with his 25man guild... always something like world 200, then suddenly there comes SoO and his guild improves by 200% going for a Top 50 ranking. IT MUST BE MAGIC. They just got so much better over night! His (soon sponsored!!!) former World 200 guild now owns all 'em bad 10man guilds and he can talk like a big guy.

Of course you are a pro now, its all just skill that you cleared soo so fast compared to the 10man guilds.

[Dracodraco]

Dracodraco rocking the contents with his 25man guild... always something like world 200, then suddenly there comes SoO and his guild improves by 200% going for a Top 50 ranking. IT MUST BE MAGIC. They just got so much better over night! His (soon sponsored!!!) former World 200 guild now owns all 'em bad 10man guilds and he can talk like a big guy.

Of course you are a pro now, its all just skill that you cleared soo so fast compared to the 10man guilds.

...What?
T16 - Rank 45.
T15 - Rank 32.
T14 - Rank 88.
T13 - Rank 98.
T12 - Rank 78.
T11 - rank 93.

Been fluctating up and down, and this tier was worse for us than last due to suddenly losing key members, but such is life. That said. I fail to see what your comment has to do with anything, really? It doesn't really matter what rank my guild is, what matters is that I'm trying the content out on as "fair" a basis as I can manage to get an idea of how it feels. That it's still going to be one before the other is just inevitable. Did you have something relevant to add?

That said, I'm glad that you seem to recognise me and who I am. Always happy to meet fans, mr "who the fuck are you" <3.

[Deleted]

Straight from wowprogress, top 20:

Excluding the no data guilds, that's ~ 570.2 ilvl for the top 20 on average.
For 10 man:
Average ~ 570.16

You kinda just proved yourself wrong.

Exactly as I said, the gear check is about the same, but it was far easier to kill it in 25 man since you have higher gear. Also taking into account that those 10 man guilds probably spent 100-200 more attempts than the 25 man guilds to kill it at the same item level, that should say something.

A lot of guilds were in the situation we were in, started progression at like 563 where it was completely impossible, then once we got to 568 it was fairly "simple" since we had wasted so much time at 563.

What you forgot to take into account was the time it took those guilds. By the time there was 20 kills in 25 man, there was only 9 in 10 man. Those other 11 guilds you listed had a lot longer time to get more gear and gear up. Of course their gear will be similar when the 20th 10 man was 1 week later than the 20th 25 man.

We killed it 2X smth (the same day as the 20th kill QQ), another 25 man guild on our realm killed it the same day as us. They EXTENDED a week, lost all the gear from that, and still had 4 item levels higher than us after wasting an entire weeks loot. Granted, my guild was on the very low edge of gear, being 2X we were the 4th lowest in ilvl, so maybe not a fair comparison, but saying that they were 2 item levels above the "standard" 10 man guild, after skipping out on an entire week of loot.

The difference is even bigger the later you go. A lot of 25 mans opted to extend however, which should say something about the fight in 25 man. Extending in 10 man? Are you crazy? Getting a ring on 1 player in the raid was worth going through all the farm bosses even if you disenchanted the rest.

[Dracodraco]

You kinda just proved yourself wrong.

Exactly as I said, the gear check is about the same, but it was far easier to kill it in 25 man since you have higher gear. Also taking into account that those 10 man guilds probably spent 100-200 more attempts than the 25 man guilds to kill it at the same item level, that should say something.

A lot of guilds were in the situation we were in, started progression at like 563 where it was completely impossible, then once we got to 568 it was fairly "simple" since we had wasted so much time at 563.

What you forgot to take into account was the time it took those guilds. By the time there was 20 kills in 25 man, there was only 9 in 10 man. Those other 11 guilds you listed had a lot longer time to get more gear and gear up. Of course their gear will be similar when the 20th 10 man was 1 week later than the 20th 25 man.

We killed it 2X smth (the same day as the 20th kill QQ), another 25 man guild on our realm killed it the same day as us. They EXTENDED a week, lost all the gear from that, and still had 4 item levels higher than us after wasting an entire weeks loot. Granted, my guild was on the very low edge of gear, being 2X we were the 4th lowest in ilvl, so maybe not a fair comparison, but saying that they were 2 item levels above the "standard" 10 man guild, after skipping out on an entire week of loot.

The difference is even bigger the later you go. A lot of 25 mans opted to extend however, which should say something about the fight in 25 man. Extending in 10 man? Are you crazy? Getting a ring on 1 player in the raid was worth going through all the farm bosses even if you disenchanted the rest.

I think you're misunderstanding the numbers here. What I posted proves that there was no "real" difference in the item level between the top 20x 10 and 25 man guilds that killed it - you would have the 25 mans arriving there at roughly the same item level as 10 mans did, and you had 10 mans and 25 mans kill it at roughly the same item level.
You also say that "by the time there was 20 kills in 25 man, there was 9 in 10 man" - which is true, but the time difference is pretty miniscule when you look at it. As said, the first 10 man kill happened 5 days later, and the last 10 man kill happened 5 days after the last 25 man kill. The 20 kills took exactly as long, except 10 mans had ÓNE extra reset of gear compared to 25 man.
So basicly, the whole thing I was trying to explain is - with just ONE more week of gear, 10 and 25 man had absolutely no gear difference. This is *not* alot. *ESPECIALLY*, when you consider that the vast majority of 10 man kills did not get more than 2x farm runs done to fill gear on their mains (it kind of loses the point after that for 10 man), while 25 mans used far more raids (I think Method was up to like... Seven or Eight, if I recall correct?). So essentially, that one week's extra reset of gear can be accounted for through better "boosting" of main characters, due to more alts being used. Not to even touch on the fact that most 25 mans would have ~1-2 ilvls on 10 mans due to having farmed full HCTF the previous tier, further explaining the small gap you can see.

I have no doubt that you might have been 4-5 ilvls behind a similiarly ranked 25 man on your realm, but you stated yourself that you guys were severely undergeared compared to a lot of other guilds, and you've said that multiple times (especially when talking about Thok). It stands to reason that if you'd been adequately geared, that would probably have been less than 2 item levels difference. And for some guilds, Like Prime, they have a ton more gear due to RNG (almost 573 ilvl) than even any of the 25 mans.

That being said, I'm not saying that there wasn't a *difference* in gear. I'm saying the people quoting numbers of +5 item levels are just not looking at the data we have. It's one, MAYBE two item levels at most during early progression, because the "superior gearing" of 25 man hasn't got the "loot train" rolling yet at that point.
As for the time spent, this is not data that we have readily available. It's possible that 10 mans took far more pulls, but that's just not data that I can either trust or gain access to, so it's hard to make any proper assumptions, really :/. All I can say is - the item level difference due to "RNG gearing in SoO" was far, far lower than 10 mans seem to believe, apart from isolated cases where your guild is one that drew the short end of the stick, comparing yourself to a 25 man that got showered in loot.

As for the difference growing the further along you go, there's no denying that, and I'm not arguing that. It's purely a case of me wanting to show that the data doesn't show that 10 mans were left in the dust during early progression, gearwise.

As for extending - it had the same downsides for 25 as 10. The only guild I know for sure that extended in the top 20 was NSS, because they had hoped to snag a top 10 kill, but they had to wait till saturday(?) to kill it because they just couldn't manage - they would have been better off farming the loot and killing it thursday, rather than spend 2-3 days wiping and losing the rank they wanted (note - if you're reading james, you can clarify if I'm right or wrong here. Only heard from cyteriz the moronic critchicken what "happened"). When you can reach Phase 4, gear is no longer the limiting factor. If you reached page 4 "fairly consistently" the reset before your kill, I would argue that you would have had just as much "success" extending, as a 25 man with the same progress would. If you chose to do another reset of farm in order to try and improve consistency, that's a choise you made, but it's not one that is a "no brainer". Only if you never reached P4 outside of sheer dumb luck the previous reset would I say that it'd be "crazy" to extend.

[Potsu]

The difference is even bigger the later you go. A lot of 25 mans opted to extend however, which should say something about the fight in 25 man. Extending in 10 man? Are you crazy? Getting a ring on 1 player in the raid was worth going through all the farm bosses even if you disenchanted the rest.

We killed Paragons on Nov 25 then extended Garrosh from that raid ID for 3 more weeks killing it Dec 17 with 571.6 ilvl =P

We were kinda forced to do this though since one of the tanks we learned most fights with quit along with a hunter and boomkin half way through paragons attempts. We didnt want to re-learn tanking and belts for siegecrafter and figure out tanking for some of the other fights so we just recruited a badass warrior tank and did H Garrosh. And all those Garrosh nights where we changed comp... damn you first transition...

[Deleted]

You kinda just proved yourself wrong.
Exactly as I said, the gear check is about the same, but it was far easier to kill it in 25 man since you have higher gear. Also taking into account that those 10 man guilds probably spent 100-200 more attempts than the 25 man guilds to kill it at the same item level, that should say something.

A lot of guilds were in the situation we were in, started progression at like 563 where it was completely impossible, then once we got to 568 it was fairly "simple" since we had wasted so much time at 563.

The gear check in this entire tier has been a joke on both modes compared to previous tiers because of 5k valor upgrade available in the first hc week(3k saved+1k normal week+1k heroic week)+ legendary cape. The difference between normal mode week farming also comes into play, many of the top 20 guilds in 10 man were doing 1-2 10 man raids, an absolute joke.

I really can't see where the 100-200 more attempts then the 25 man guilds to kill it comes from? Maybe Garrosh but that's a side effect of add kiting or cheesing on Blackfuse/Paragons(hunters/rogues cheating belt, boping Skeer's adds), Siegecrafter Blackfuse and Paragons of the Klaxxi are easier on 10 man without cheating.

[kidsafe]

Re: Siegecrafter, I think it's a lot easier to do the empowered mine killing strat on 25M unless you have the perfect 10M group for it. As well, in 10M you are much more liable for personal mistakes and will die in more cases than than you would in 25M with all the collateral healing and CD saturation going on. Again the raid clumping/stacking phenomenon works here in 25M but rarely is it employed in 10M.

Basically when we were progressing on that fight, I felt really bad for our healers. I also wished both our healers were absorb/shield healers instead of having a resto druid.

[Dracodraco]

Re: Siegecrafter, I think it's a lot easier to do the empowered mine killing strat on 25M unless you have the perfect 10M group for it. As well, in 10M you are much more liable for personal mistakes and will die in more cases than than you would in 25M with all the collateral healing and CD saturation going on. Again the raid clumping/stacking phenomenon works here in 25M but rarely is it employed in 10M.

Basically when we were progressing on that fight, I felt really bad for our healers. I also wished both our healers were absorb/shield healers instead of having a resto druid.

I was under the impression that you needed to stack regardless of size, due to the encounter mechanics. For bombs because you want them running in the same direction for easier CC, and for missiles because you want them to spawn at specific places rather than where-ever the fuck they want :/.
As for killing bombs, it was more than doable with just 2 ranged after the nerf (lock+boomkin), and half the time they'd be out running either way. It's a 20% hp reduction, so assuming most guilds would have 3 ranged for the bombs, it seems fair to assume that it'd be pretty much the same pre nerf with another ranged as it was post nerf for us.