Ways to improve for our Mistweaver...

[Cyriaa]

I don't understand this whole argument of fistweaving totaltotemic started (and derailed the thread might i add).
To address the OP, your MW is fine and he's not doing anything wrong. Fistweaving isn't required and in many cases (from a 25 man standpoint, I understand it's different in 10) is actually far worse than mistweaving. If anything you need to be having a talk with your priest. I don't understand why he/she would think playing disc on malkorok is good, holy out performs disc by a looooooooong mile on that fight.

When my guild (again, 25 man) can't meet a dps check and they're off by maybe a good 1-2%, my guild/raid leaders don't tell me as a monk to get into melee and fistweave so we can make that damage up. They don't tell our Disc priest that she needs to smite harder, they tell the dps that they need to pick it up a notch. You play a dps class to dps, a tank class to tank, and a healing class to heal. Requiring your healers to dps because your dps classes aren't performing as well as they can is stupid. The only time that I could see that being viable would be in the world first race, which I doubt anybody here is in or has been in.
Since totaltotemic brought up that 25 man monks need to be fistweaving I'll address that as well. From my experience fistweaving is absolutely abysmal, and pure garbage in 25 man. The healing you do is nonexistent, and the damage you do is unnoticeable and chances are you won't make much of a difference on the fight. Since you mentioned Garrosh, while we were progressing and failing to meet the dps checks, I never once heard anybody in my guild say "our healers need to start putting out some damage so we can push this over". Instead, what I heard was "hey dps, we need to pick it up a little so we can push this over, save your CDs for x, y, and z moments and use your second pot here".
The only point in time that fistweaving was basically a requirement was in 25man Heroic T14 (it was crap in 10 man back then, idk what the case was in 10 man for T15 however). I personally prefer that playstyle and wish we could go back to being that potent. Another thing to keep in mind is that the fights in SoO aren't designed for mistweavers to shine. The only fights that they really stand out in is (in 25 man) Malkorok, Blackfuse, and Norushen.

[Totaltotemic]

When my guild (again, 25 man) can't meet a dps check and they're off by maybe a good 1-2%, my guild/raid leaders don't tell me as a monk to get into melee and fistweave so we can make that damage up. They don't tell our Disc priest that she needs to smite harder, they tell the dps that they need to pick it up a notch.

Then your raid leader is incompetent. If you had healers wearing healing cloaks and not trying to do damage on a fight where literally the only healing required for 3/4s of the fight is tank damage and you were missing a DPS check that you needed to make, the way to success would have been incredibly easy to toss on a cloak on 4 healers and suddenly have Garrosh 100 million health lower. Not doing that just because you don't feel like it is asinine, and wiping over and over again on a boss because you don't want to do what's optimal has no place in heroic raiding. Why would you hold out for DPS to "play better" when you have an I Win button sitting right there that you can press?

If people didn't do things that they didn't feel like doing then everyone would be scumbagging all over the place on Paragons, no melee would run out when there are Crawler Mines on Siegecrafter, and DPS that have to go kill engineers would just not do it and we'd all die. Raiding isn't about screwing around and only doing what you want, it's about overcoming a challenge as a team. Holding back your raid because you don't want to help them kill bosses when you are fully aware of what you could do and just choose not to is being an extremely poor raider. Most heroic guilds would kick you out if you told them that you didn't do something that would have helped kill a boss because you "didn't want to."

[Cyriaa]

Then your raid leader is incompetent.

Lol, my raid leader is far from incompetent. But let's pretend for a moment that he is (despite how fantastic he does his job), his incompetence managed to score us a US35 kill (before any nerfs on any bosses were rolled out) on H Garrosh, and in ToT a US 26 (also before any nerfs were rolled out). If we compare that to your US 56 Garrosh kill and US 225 Ra-den and 232 Lei Shen, I'd say that my raid leader is pretty damn good, and I'm glad to follow his incompetent instructions.
I don't think you realize just how miniscule the damage output we have is, not to mention how little damage the cloaks actually do, you're over emphasizing the amount of dps we're capable of. Our top dps' cloak only did 14 million damage......put that cloak on healers who won't be proccing it nearly as much as a warlock will and you're still not gonna dish out 100 million from just the cloak. http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...-done&source=2
You're looking at MAYBE 56 million, in a best case scenario (that's 56 million between 4 players). The cloak doesn't do much at all for damage, it's mostly a stat stick.
The DPS gain in 10 man is much more noticeable than in 25 man. However, it's not necessary.
I mean lets just take a look at the mistweaver who parsed as the highest dps healer in spec http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...7&type=healing
He did about 100 million damage (about that mark you were looking for) however, lets take a look at his healing. The prot pally basically kept up with him, a blood dk would out heal him. That mistweaver was literally dead weight. That guild in particular would have been much better off bringing in another dps in his place and 4 healed the fight like most guilds do.
But you see, here's what I really don't understand.....you don't even play mistweaver. You play brewmaster on that fight, and windwalker in others, so why do you even have an opinion of mistweaver dps in the first place?

[Totaltotemic]

Ah the ad hominem once again. I'll make the point nice and simple then so that you can comprehend without feeling the need to attack me personally without even looking at the merit of the point itself.


What exactly do you do in the 40 seconds between Whirling Corruption casts?

[Cyriaa]

Dispel recently MCd targets, heal them up, keep the tank alive, follow mechanics. I didn't attack you, you're in here attacking everybody that disagrees with you.

[Totaltotemic]

Dispel recently MCd targets, heal them up, keep the tank alive, follow mechanics. I didn't attack you, you're in here attacking everybody that disagrees with you.

Taking the time to look up my personal history and raids and using them to try to make my point invalid is the very definition of a personal attack.


So you're saying you channel Soothing Mist on tanks for 25 seconds straight then? Considering, you know, there's 25 seconds between the end of an Empowered Whirling Corruption and a Touch of Y'Shaarj. Or do you literally sit there not casting spells waiting for the rest of the raid to kill the boss for you?

To illustrate, dispelling 4 targets takes 1 GCD from each healer, and healing 4 people up ~70% of their health takes.... 1 GCD from each healer. You have 23 seconds to do other things, is Eminence not enough healing to keep tanks alive?


As for the benefits of doing damage, http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...one&target=142 killing the boss an entire minute faster seems pretty good. 210 million damage to Garrosh across all 4 healers (seriously, a Resto Shaman is outputting more damage than you do and nothing about the class says you're "supposed" to do that) is the entire value of a mid-range DPS, effectively giving us the DPS of 3 healing. If that's not a benefit, I don't know what is.

[Deleted]

In which another healer devalues damage significantly after all progress is finished

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Also can we please stop trying to call out totemic for being inexperienced as a Mistweaver? He's one of very few people I can actually remember being knowledgeable about Mistweavers, and been around since the start. It would be an awful shame if he were to stop posting because a few members cannot accept the status quo right now being if you're not drinking or healing you should be damaging.

[Cyriaa]

I understand he's been around for awhile, I remember him from earlier tiers. However, he is being very hostile. I've made no personal attacks on anybody, period.
Sure, I could TP -> BoK -> etc over the course of 20 seconds, and end up doing maybe 1M damage. Or I can continue managing my ReM and TFT timing and not let anything fall instead of wasting my mana on damage which is basically useless considering how little we actually provide and how little impact that'll make over the course of the fight. Yes, I CJL when there's nothing else to do and when my healing cloak procs....but it wouldn't make a difference to the fight if I didn't CJL. I simply do it because I have nothing else to do.
Like I said, the top parsing DPS from a MW only provided 100M damage over the course of a 13 minute fight. That's absolutely pitiful, and like I said in my previous post, that guild would have been better off bringing in a DPS and 4 healing rather than 5 healing with a dead weight MW. 100M might be a lot in 10 man, but it certainly isn't ANYTHING in a 25 man. Also keep in mind that a decent chunk of that is probably from adds, he only did 85M to Garrosh. A MWs dps isn't going to make or break a fight on 25 man, and if it does then you need to jump on your DPS and get them to step their game up more (unless ofc you're in the world first race which then it becomes a bigger deal, however nobody here is).

[Totaltotemic]

I don't know what else to say if you're just going to ignore the fact that you don't have to sabotage your healing to do over 50 million damage, which is at least a quarter of a DPS. I mean your CJL was ticking non-crit for 124k, saying that you'd only do 1 million damage in 20 seconds is just ignoring the numbers on your screen. You're underestimating your actual DPS down to 20-30% of the logs you provided for yourself. If you won't just look at the actual damage you have done and continue to insist that you do far less than that, there's really nothing to be said.

17 million damage is 1% of heroic 25 man Garrosh's health. If your raid needs 35 million more damage, and you can do at least 40 million in that time, you're hurting your raid by saying "no I don't wanna do damage because I'm a healer and that means I shouldn't have to do damage."

[Cyriaa]

I don't know what else to say if you're just going to ignore everything I say.
The highest DPS MW monk was barely able to do 86M damage to Garrosh and that's him in his DPS rotation full time.
Me throwing out a few CJL and BoKs in between Whirling Corruption phases in one phase isn't going to mean ANYTHING in the long run.

[Spotnick]

Funny how this debate sounds exactly like discipline priests in Cataclysm with going atonement or not.

You guys realize there is no right answer eh? Both ways to heal are perfectly fine. Some like to pad the dps meter, others the healing meter.

[Nakanai]

Some like to pad the dps meter, others the healing meter.

Totemic's point is that you can't pad the healing meter when there's no healing to be done. You either sit there doing nothing, or you dps.

[Deleted]

I don't know what else to say if you're just going to ignore everything I say.
The highest DPS MW monk was barely able to do 86M damage to Garrosh and that's him in his DPS rotation full time.
Me throwing out a few CJL and BoKs in between Whirling Corruption phases in one phase isn't going to mean ANYTHING in the long run.

You do about 200k DPS when you're trying, you wouldn't call the ~60 item levels on a DPS that equates to useless. Your failure to see the value of fistweaving is exactly because you're focused on the long term and ignore it can have short term benefits, such as pushing phases that much faster.

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You're also using quite a lot of confirmation bias, it's quite easy to tell from that monk's healing breakdown that he isn't doing his maximum damage. In fact he's doing exactly as totemic said and is healing through bursts and fistweaving, this is obvious from his healing charts:

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DXnw18Kcgr9zx3NG#fight=7&type=healing&source=16&pins=0%24true%24%23244F4B%24healing%240%24 0.0.0.Any%24110836847.0.0.Monk%24true%240.0.0.Any%24false%24116670

Then obviously there's the matter you're ignoring add DPS when it's quite a large part of what he's built into with RJW, he does close to 400k DPS with them active - I fail to see how that's a negligible contribution. Totally ignoring all that, Garrosh isn't a very ideal fistweaving fight if you're looking for just numbers.

[Totaltotemic]

Totemic's point is that you can't pad the healing meter when there's no healing to be done. You either sit there doing nothing, or you dps.

The third option is what most healers end up doing, which is spamming useless healing spells that all overheal just so they can feel like they're still healing when in reality it's all getting covered by other heals. Lei Shen and Garrosh are both great examples of fights that have extended periods of time where there is a boss to hit and no damage to heal and were hard enough during progression that 2% raid damage could really matter.

Our Resto Druids would spam Wrath almost the entirety of phase 2 on Lei Shen because the extra 1% allowed us to not have to leave the second conduit and avoid a Ball Lightning spawn by 3 seconds. If they could spam Wrath that entire time and not have to be healing, it follows then that the raid was not hurt at all by them not healing. If a Resto Shaman in a 4 heal comp can use 97 globals between Lightning Bolt, Lava Burst, and Flame Shock to do 12 million damage (about 0.6% of Garrosh's health, or 0.3% if you want to say only half of it was in phase 2) and healing is still fine, I'm sure a Mistweaver that could do double that damage and do half of it as healing would also leave healing just fine.

No one needs 4 healers to heal regular tank damage for 30 seconds straight unless the tanks or healers are very bad, at some point it's time to realize that your globals are being completely wasted and that there's something more useful you could be doing than spam overhealing.

[Cyriaa]

You continue to prove my point.
You could be doing it....but it's not required, especially on farm bosses where the added dps doesn't matter which is what the OP was asking about.
Why are you arguing with me?

[Hyve]

You're just being pedantic because you have a personal problem with me. You know very well that a MW that goes an entire raid without pressing a single damage ability is doing it wrong, saying otherwise just to try to annoy me just wastes everyone else's time.

As a Mistweaver in a guild that is 13 / 14 Heroic, I've not once felt the need to be Fistweaving. It made my life a little easier on Thok Heroic for obvious reasons, but it was still doable without Fistweaving.

You don't need to do it, and if at this point in the Tier your guild is reliant on that Fistweaving DPS, then your DPS aren't doing their job properly. I agree on principle, that if you're doing nothing, you might as well throw out some DPS, even if it is just a Crackling Jade Lightning, but to claim going an entire raid without doing any DPS is wrong, is just silly.

[Totaltotemic]

Just because you can 24 or 9 man bosses doesn't mean that raids don't require 25 or 10 people. Carrying someone that's bad and not doing what they're supposed to is definitely possible. The very point of this thread is to analyze what a MW might be doing wrong and could be doing better, obviously he can kill bosses but that doesn't mean he's doing everything he's supposed to. The logic that you can kill a boss while playing poorly so therefore you don't need to play well is silly because it completely falls apart when you hit something difficult that requires you to do everything you can to kill a boss. Trying to tell other players "no it's okay just play how you want, you don't need to do what works best" is LFR logic and best left to people that don't have a group of people relying on their performance.

For the record, I would say the exact same thing about a Paladin that literally never used Denounce, a Shaman that never used Lightning Bolt, and a Druid that never used Wrath. I'm not saying you have to do it all the time, but if it's literally never, you've probably got some screwy priorities and are wasting a lot of time standing around doing nothing because the damage patterns in most fights dip pretty low in certain areas.

[moveth]

I fully agree with Totemic on this one. Fistweaving may not be necessary, but not doing it because "I dont wanna DPS" in a 10man is selfish and honestly makes you a worse player. There is a MW friend of mine who does 450-500k Burst DpS on Normal Garrosh and steadies out at 200k DPS while still managing to stay at 120k HPS. Even on the 13 they kill on heroic he fistweaves and contributes 120-150k DpS while still keeping everyone alive. In a 10man it is crucial to get 100% out of every class you take, otherwise you're dead weight.

[Cyriaa]

I fully agree with Totemic on this one. Fistweaving may not be necessary, but not doing it because "I dont wanna DPS" in a 10man is selfish and honestly makes you a worse player. There is a MW friend of mine who does 450-500k Burst DpS on Normal Garrosh and steadies out at 200k DPS while still managing to stay at 120k HPS. Even on the 13 they kill on heroic he fistweaves and contributes 120-150k DpS while still keeping everyone alive. In a 10man it is crucial to get 100% out of every class you take, otherwise you're dead weight.

See this is fine, because you're in a 10 man guild. But he's not talking about just 10 mans, he's talking about 25 mans which is an entirely different ball game.
My point is, if you're going to bring a MW to a 25 man and expect him to dps full time and not heal you're dumb, and might as well just bring a REAL dps because the healing contribution that MW will provide is near zero. On the other hand if you're not doing anything like in the scenario he gave sure you can help dps a bit, but that dps isn't going to make a significant impact on the fight. That 400-500k burst on Garrosh is AE burst which is basically pointless considering you just knock those adds back into the ironstar. Just let the locks rain of fire so they get their embers and increase their single target damage.

You CAN dps, but it's not required and in many cases, the damage you provide is insignificant IN A 25 MAN RAID SETTING (not 10). That is MY point, as I've provided examples which have been conveniently ignored and brushed off by totaltotemic.

[Deleted]

That 400-500k burst on Garrosh is AE burst

Not necessarily, that could definitely just be CJL channeling on garrosh with trinkets up. Nobody here is talking about going fulltime dps, everyone knows you have to heal during the whirlings and you always have your REMs up for it but inbetween you might as well squeeze in that decent dps. You seem to really overestimate how much healing you lose when dpsing. Channeling CJL with REM up and spending your chi on uplift is not THAT far off what your "regular" healing provides, it might even provide "better" healing since it will snipe earlier than what you can do manually.

I fail to see how half a dps is bad, it might be seem insignificant but why would you not do it since you barrely are losing healing where it matters, you're only losing healing when increased healing would be insignificant.