Will Tinkers be a class in WoW?

[Teriz]

We weren't surprised probably because we already knew the Mists of Pandaria expansion would have a heavy oriental, China-like ambience and theme.

That would be because Pandaria was established as an Asian-themed continent in WC3. You know, because Panda people live there.

As for why the monk is martial arts based? Because to fit the Brewmaster drunken brawler from WC3 into the theme they would have to give it some oriental identiy, which is where the kungu-fu-like fighting style came from, therefore greatly changing the WC3 brewmaster hero to fit in WoW.

Um, you have that backwards. The Brewmaster already had an oriental martial arts theme in WC3, and that theme was carried over to WoW when the Monk was concieved.

Brewmaster was based simply on drunken brawling/fighting. The Martial arts and Mist-wearing were given to brewmasters to make them into Monks for Mists of Pandaria.


The 'kung-fu garb' you speak of is basically an every-day style of clothing from China's medieval time, so no base there. Just watch any movie which is based on Medieval China and you'll see. Also, WC3 hero never ever used martial arts. It just smashed people in the head with a stick and a keg. Nothing very martial-arts-y there.

So wait.... You can't figure out that a Drunken brawler from China's medieval times would have a martial arts theme?

The ability Drunken Brawler, Splitting into three Kung fu spirits, and kicking ass with a staff isn't martial artsy?

[Thimagryn]

Shaman, Druids, Mages, Hunters, and Warlocks were loose translation.

The DK, Paladin, and Monk were direct translations.

Actually Paladins and DKs weren't direct translations. Paladins never used Shields in Warcraft 3. Death Knights fought while mounted.

By that example, we don't have to adhere to the Warcraft 3 identity so closely. So we can have Tinkers without Robot Arms and Hammer Tanks, which is exactly what GC hinted at.

Which is why no one surprised when Chen performed martial arts in he opening cinematic of MoP? Which is why the concept art for Brewmasters is entirely martial arts based? Which is why Pandaria and Chen is based on China?

Why would anyone being surprised prove anything? Brewmasters in Warcraft 3 did not use Martial Arts, so you can't say Martial Arts were derived from Brewmasters. There is no direct influence, what you have is anecdotal at best. You can extrapolate Martial Arts themes from the Brewmaster, but only because it's all loosely based on an Oriental theme. We could have a new Steampunk class loosely based on Technology, without Pocket Factories and Robo Goblin tanks.

Anyway, the large Keg that Brewmasters carry became Keg smash in the Monk class.

Right, to keep familiarity to the Brewmaster. Otherwise you have absolutely no tie ins to the Warcraft 3 hero. Now what if you replaced Keg Smash with Dizzying Smash...

As for the Mistweaver, it's related to the Brewmaster via the Pandaren link, Martial Arts, and the use of drinks to empower yourself.

An intended link to keep familiarity to Brewmasters. Remove the 'Brew' name and you still have all the mechanics to support a Monk that has no ties to Brewmasters.

It's pretty clear that all elements of the Brewmaster within the Monk class are simply there to retain a sense of familiarity. The Monk itself has enough theme and gameplay to support itself without any Alcoholic influence. The same applies to a Tech-based class that has little-to-nothing to do with Tinkers, other than use Cluster Rockets, Turrets and Lasers.

Thank god we're not talking about Goblin Alchemists, or you'd be suggesting players riding blue Ogres into battle.

[Futhark]

Um, you have that backwards. The Brewmaster already had an oriental martial arts theme in WC3, and that theme was carried over to WoW when the Monk was concieved.

No it didn't. Not even close. It was oriental in dress and pandaness only.

In fact, the monks we ended up with aren't WC3 Brewmaster enough. They had to water it down (pun) to fit the monk concept. Why is my Brewmaster getting a Shuffle buff instead of Drunken Haze? Why is my Brewmaster doing stupid things like Blackout Kick, or Tiger Palm, or Spinning Crane Kick ffs? Why can't my Brewmaster do SE&F like WC3 Brewmasters can? What does a Celestial Ox have to do with being a Brewmaster? Nothing. All worthless monk-filler.

[Teriz]

Actually Paladins and DKs weren't direct translations. Paladins never used Shields in Warcraft 3. Death Knights fought while mounted.

Paladins were human, heavily armored, carried large hammers, had Holy Light, Divine Shield, Devotion Aura, and a resurrection ability.

Let's break that down; in WoW, Paladins are primarily humans via the Silver Hand. In WoW they used auras, and Devotion Aura was the primary aura in that system, increasing armor. Holy light and Resurrection formed the basis of the healing spec. Devotion Aura and Divine Shield formed the basis of the Tanking spec. The big 2h hammer use formed the basis of the Retribution spec.

Death Knights in WC3 had Rune Blades, and Necromancer-like abilities. The theme of the DK was a fallen champion, ala Arthas who was a hero who fell to darkness. That lore was carried over to WoW. Rune Blades were carried over and formed the basis of Runeforging and the Runic resource system. Death Pact, Unholy Aura, Death Coil, and Animate dead formed the basis of the Unholy spec. The other two scourge heroes formed the basis of the other DK specs. The Ghoul that the DK summons is exactly like the Ghoul unit from WC3.

But yeah, let's focus on the shield and the inability to ride a horse in combat....

By that example, we don't have to adhere to the Warcraft 3 identity so closely. So we can have Tinkers without Robot Arms and Hammer Tanks, which is exactly what GC hinted at.

Again, GC never hinted at that. He simply said that the Tinker MIGHT be too Whimsical. Its amazing how you continuously misquote his tweet over and over again.

Why would anyone being surprised prove anything? Brewmasters in Warcraft 3 did not use Martial Arts, so you can't say Martial Arts were derived from Brewmasters. There is no direct influence, what you have is anecdotal at best. You can extrapolate Martial Arts themes from the Brewmaster, but it's not the only path you could take; just as we could create a new Steampunk class out of the Tinker without actually addressing Pocket Factories and Robo Goblin tanks.

Yeah, a panda from a Chinese inspired continent, with a Chinese-based name who uses an exotic fighting style, and wears cloths straight out of a Jackie Chan movie isn't martial arts based at all.....

Right, to keep familiarity to the Brewmaster. Otherwise you have absolutely no tie ins to the Warcraft 3 hero. Now what if you replaced Keg Smash with Dizzying Smash...

You'd still be smashing people over the head with a keg.

An intended link to keep familiarity to Brewmasters. Remove the 'Brew' name and you still have all the mechanics to support a Monk that has no ties to Brewmasters.

Yet they didn't. They even extended the "brewing" aspect to include the other two specs to further drive home the point that the Brewmaster is the core of the entire class.

It's pretty clear that all elements of the Brewmaster within the Monk class are simply there to retain a sense of familiarity. The Monk itself has enough theme and gameplay to support itself without any Alcoholic influence. The same applies to a Tech-based class that has little-to-nothing to do with Tinkers, other than use Cluster Rockets, Turrets and Lasers.

Of course it does. The point is that instead of utilizing a different Monk theme (and there were several) they went all in with the far more whimsical Brewmaster theme, and adhered closely to themes established in WC3.

I see no reason why the Tinker wouldn't follow suit.

- - - Updated - - -

No it didn't. Not even close. It was oriental in dress and pandaness only.

In fact, the monks we ended up with aren't WC3 Brewmaster enough. They had to water it down (pun) to fit the monk concept. Why is my Brewmaster getting a Shuffle buff instead of Drunken Haze?

You must mean Drunken Brawler? Monks got Drunken/Dizzying Haze;

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115180/dizzying-haze

Drunken Brawler was split up into multiple abilities within the Brewmaster spec. Elusive Brew and Swift Reflexes are the descendants of that ability. Drunken Brawler the namesake became Elusive Brawler, and increased the Brewmaster's chief mitigation ability.

Why is my Brewmaster doing stupid things like Blackout Kick, or Tiger Palm, or Spinning Crane Kick ffs? Why can't my Brewmaster do SE&F like WC3 Brewmasters can? What does a Celestial Ox have to do with being a Brewmaster? Nothing. All worthless monk-filler.

All of which are expansions from the Brewmaster foundation.

[Futhark]

You must mean Drunken Brawler?

Yes, I did mean Drunken Brawler.

All of which are expansions from the Brewmaster foundation.

No dude. You are completely backwards. Come on.

[Teriz]

No dude. You are completely backwards. Come on.

So you're a arguing that Blizzard isn't expanding a martial arts concept by giving a martial arts-based class punching and kicking abilities?

The Brewmaster spec is probably the most faithful WC3 translations in the game.

[Thimagryn]

Paladins in WoW can by one of 5 different races, not just Humans. Paladins of WoW can be of different religions that don't abide the Holy Light, including Sun revery and drawing from the teachings of the Naaru.

WoW Paladins have outgrown the 'Knights of the Silver Hand' of Warcraft 3. Sunwalkers and Vindicators would have had no place in your narrow view of what Paladins are.

[Futhark]

So you're a arguing that Blizzard isn't expanding a martial arts concept by giving a martial arts-based class punching and kicking abilities?

I'm saying Blizzard didn't expand a brewmaster concept by giving it more brewmaster abilities.

You're claiming Blizzard expanded a brewmaster concept by giving it martial arts-based class punching and kicking abilities? It's pretty clear they started with a Pandaren themed, Celestial themed, martial arts themed, monk class and tacked in the brewmaster abilities the best they could. I know you don't believe they started from a brewmaster base, because you thought runemasters were going to be the next class: the former Azeroth monk class. But because classes need to fill an expansion theme foremost (I'll come back to that), the Pandaran martial arts superceded the little runemaster lore, or scarlet monestary monk lore there was, and they made an asian theme monk class. And they tied some brewmaster abilities to it because of Chen. Chen was not a martial-artist in WC3. He was a Brewmaster, which is kind of monkish by nature. But sure as hell no martial artist.

Now I have argued before that because a new class has to fit an expansion theme before it is ever considered, Tinkers had little chance of being a class. Turns out I was wrong in my shortsightedness. Going back in time and industrializing a primitive race would have been the perfect time to introduce an industrial themed tech race. Just perfect. But I don't really see this theme being repeated, so to get back on topic, the chances of an Engineering class ever being implemented were seriously struck a blow by not being in this expansion. I don't think it could ever fit in another as well.

[Ielenia]

So you're a arguing that Blizzard isn't expanding a martial arts concept by giving a martial arts-based class punching and kicking abilities?
The Brewmaster spec is probably the most faithful WC3 translations in the game.

the Brewmaster from WC3 wasn't a monk and wasn't a martial artist. He was just literally a drunk panda who bashed people on their heads with his keg and put them on fire. That was basically all it did. He didn't fight with martial arts at all. The only connection the brewmaster had with oriental martial arts was the fact that the Brewmaster apparently had oriental origins, given his style of dressing. That was all. To say someone is a martial artist just because he's oriental is stereotypical at best.

[Teriz]

Paladins in WoW can by one of 5 different races, not just Humans. Paladins of WoW can be of different religions that don't abide the Holy Light, including Sun revery and drawing from the teachings of the Naaru.

WoW Paladins have outgrown the 'Knights of the Silver Hand' of Warcraft 3. Sunwalkers and Vindicators would have had no place in your narrow view of what Paladins are.

That was via expansions. In vanilla, only Humans and Dwarves could be Paladins, and according to WoW lore, the Dwarves learned it from the Humans.

[Thimagryn]

Right, and in Vanilla Paladins were not playable by the Horde either. The face of WoW and what each class represents has changed much over time, and that all influences how new classes are designed today.

That is why we have playable Death Knights, despite all DK's being champions of the Scourge. It's why we have Monks, despite having no actual martial artist trainers on known Azeroth until MoP. It's also why we'll probably be getting Steampunk Tinkers, despite having relatively little Steampunk influence in WoW.

[Teriz]

the Brewmaster from WC3 wasn't a monk and wasn't a martial artist. He was just literally a drunk panda who bashed people on their heads with his keg and put them on fire. That was basically all it did. He didn't fight with martial arts at all. The only connection the brewmaster had with oriental martial arts was the fact that the Brewmaster apparently had oriental origins, given his style of dressing. That was all. To say someone is a martial artist just because he's oriental is stereotypical at best.

You do know that there is a famous Kung Fu style called Drunken Boxing (Zi-Quan) right? Drunken Kung Fu is the subject matter of countless martial arts movies. In fact, one of Jackie Chan's most famous MA films is Drunken Master.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_Master

So let's recap; We have a Chinese animal, with a Chinese name, hailing from a Chinese-inspired continent, wearing traditional Chinese garb, performing an exotic fighting style that resembles a famous form of Chinese martial arts, and you want to argue that the Brewmaster didn't have an Asian Martial Arts theme?

- - - Updated - - -

Right, and in Vanilla Paladins were not playable by the Horde either. The face of WoW and what each class represents has changed much over time, and that all influences how new classes are designed today.

I do believe the point was that the Paladin class was a direct translation of the WC3 unit. The fact that in Vanilla they were Alliance only, and were Human centric reinforce the fact that the class came directly from the very Human Paladin WC3 unit.

That is why we have playable Death Knights, despite all DK's being champions of the Scourge. It's why we have Monks, despite having no actual martial artist trainers on known Azeroth until MoP. It's also why we'll probably be getting Steampunk Tinkers, despite having relatively little Steampunk influence in WoW.

The Death Knight theme works just fine with multiple races, since they are re-risen champions. The point is that the theme of the fallen champion comes directly from WC3 and Arthas.

As for Monks, the Pandaren were rare until we found. Pandaria after cataclysm, and an Alliance airship crashed into the Wandering Isle. Pandaren were also rare in WC3 as well.

Given all that, it would be a severe break in tradition if the class wasn't a direct translation of the. WC3 unit like previous classes have been.

[Thimagryn]

You do know that there is a famous Kung Fu style called Drunken Boxing (Zi-Quan) right? Drunken Kung Fu is the subject matter of countless martial arts movies. In fact, one of Jackie Chan's most famous MA films is Drunken Master.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_Master

So let's recap; We have a Chinese animal, with a Chinese name, hailing from a Chinese-inspired continent, wearing traditional Chinese garb, performing an exotic fighting style that resembles a famous form of Chinese martial arts, and you want to argue that the Brewmaster didn't have an Asian Martial Arts theme?

Yet Drunken Fist is fought weaponless. Swinging a keg is not Drunken Fist style, at all. I mean it's almost as if you're trying to link Drunken fighting to all Chinese Martial Arts. That's why these relationships are considered loose, at best.

Given all that, it would be a severe break in tradition if the class wasn't a direct translation of the. WC3 unit like previous classes have been.

You seem to think GC said 'We're totally basing a new Tech class on the Goblin Tinker aesthetics'. He said the Tinker concept was possibly too whimsical, and he presented an entirely different Tech-based class concept, themed around Steampunk. That's a pretty big given that any Tech-based class wouldn't adhere strictly to the Tinker as it exists in Warcraft 3.

[Hatecore]

AS GC said too whimsical

[Ielenia]

You do know that there is a famous Kung Fu style called Drunken Boxing (Zi-Quan) right? Drunken Kung Fu is the subject matter of countless martial arts movies. In fact, one of Jackie Chan's most famous MA films is Drunken Master.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drunken_Master
So let's recap; We have a Chinese animal, with a Chinese name, hailing from a Chinese-inspired continent, wearing traditional Chinese garb, performing an exotic fighting style that resembles a famous form of Chinese martial arts, and you want to argue that the Brewmaster didn't have an Asian Martial Arts theme?

Actually, there is nothing 'Drunken Master' in the WC3 brewmaster hero at all. All he did was to grab his keg, and hit monsters on the top of their heads with it. That's all. And listen at the hero's quotes from WC3, nothing kung-fu-ish at all about them, all about beer and panda puns.

[Teriz]

Yet Drunken Fist is fought weaponless. Swinging a keg is not Drunken Fist style, at all. I mean it's almost as if you're trying to link Drunken fighting to all Chinese Martial Arts. That's why these relationships are considered loose, at best.

No staff or in Drunken Style?



No Keg?



In this vid from Drunken Master, Jackie Chan's character uses a staff and a keg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdd-J1pPl4

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, there is nothing 'Drunken Master' in the WC3 brewmaster hero at all. All he did was to grab his keg, and hit monsters on the top of their heads with it.

And dodged attacks while countering them at the same time. Using a staff to hit targets, and splitting into 3 Kung Fu inspired spirits;



Which by the way were inspired by the three storms from Big Trouble in Little China. Another Kung Fu movie.

If you check out this vid from Drunken Master 2, you'll see where all of this originated from; A martial artist who can dodge attacks, confuse foes, and counter them using deceptive movements and martial arts. ALL while utilizing alcohol to empower himself.

He even smashes two bottles of alcohol on his opponents before beating the crap out of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Df0SiV4PbI

[Thimagryn]

How many Monks do you see swinging Kegs and staves? All the Monks I've seen use unarmed punches and kicks.

There is no direct relation to how Monks fight to the style of Drunken Fist, whatsoever. What you have is a beer-themed attack style of drinking brews that make you a better tank, and throwing kegs on enemies making them dizzy. Remove the Beer-themes and the Monk is still a Monk.

[Teriz]

You seem to think GC said 'We're totally basing a new Tech class on the Goblin Tinker aesthetics'.

No, I'm basing that on the history of class implementation into the game. Direct translations from WC3 are a WoW tradition.

The Goblin Tinker is no more whimsical than Siegemaster Blackfuse.

- - - Updated - - -

How many Monks do you see swinging Kegs and staves? All the Monks I've seen use unarmed punches and kicks.

There is no direct relation to how Monks fight to the style of Drunken Fist, whatsoever.

So a style based on alcohol and fighting technique from an Asian-inspired character has no direct relation to an Asian fighting style that is based on alcohol and fighting techniques?

Okay.....

What you have is a beer-themed attack style of drinking brews that make you a better tank, and throwing kegs on enemies making them dizzy. Remove the Beer-themes and the Monk is still a Monk.

True, but Blizzard didn't remove it, because it was important for them to show that the basis for their Monk class was the Brewmaster hero unit which was in turn inspired by famous Hong Kong martial arts films that featured Drunken Martial Arts, like Drunken Master. Unlike other Monk classes in other RPG games, the WoW Monk stands above the rest, because it has personality and style. Deciding to base their Monk class on a hero that was inspired by an actual and popular Chinese martial art was a stroke of sheer genius.

[Tatzi]

I feel like they didn't take the Brewmaster from WCIII and turn it into the monk. I feel like they developed the monk and figured that they could put the Brewmaster into it. And it's probably not a good idea to use movies as an example for fighting styles. Generally, they're nothing like the real sport (Karate Kid is not a good translation of how Karate is used/practiced).

[Teriz]

I feel like they didn't take the Brewmaster from WCIII and turn it into the monk. I feel like they developed the monk and figured that they could put the Brewmaster into it.

If that were the case, the entire class wouldn't revolve around the Brewmaster concept. Again, you seem to forget that the ability to brew a drink and use it to empower yourself is a theme that exists within the entire class, not just in the tanking spec. As is the strong Pandaren influences, which come directly from the Pandaren Brewmaster.

Clearly what Blizzard did was take the Brewmaster concept and expand on its already existent martial arts theme.

Again;

1. The abilities: The Monk class received ALL of the Brewmaster hero abilities. Drunken/Dizzying Haze, Drunken/Elusive Brawler, and Breath of Fire became part of the Tanking spec. Storm, Earth, and Fire became part of the DPS spec.

2. The Brewmaster's main thematic was a fighter who utilized liquid refreshment in battle. This theme was carried over into all three specs, which is why all three specs can brew drinks to empower themselves.

3. Since the hero was called the Pandaren Brewmaster, the class was decidedly Pandaren in nature. So while almost any race could be a Monk, the themes and visuals were decidedly pandaren-based.

4. Let's not forget appearance. The Monk's armor and weaponry were heavily influenced by Chen Stormstout.

Examples:

Chen:



Monk Armor:

http://www.wowhead.com/item=85396/re...#same-model-as

http://www.wowhead.com/item=89555#same-model-as

Monk Weaponry;

http://www.wowhead.com/item=86218#same-model-as

And it's probably not a good idea to use movies as an example for fighting styles. Generally, they're nothing like the real sport (Karate Kid is not a good translation of how Karate is used/practiced).

Irrelevant. Just goes to show you're not reading what my posts before responding to them.