exercising while sore?

[Deleted]

sorry, I dont buy it, 1 study counteracts many others and many years of experience. No, I'll wait for a larger body of evidence before I turn accepted wisdom on its head.

[Torgent]

do you train while sore or do you wait for them to go back to normal?

You should never train while sore. The soreness (Called DOMS: Delayed onset muscle soreness), is caused by tiny tears in your muscle. People think it's lactic acid and they can work it out, but that's not true. If you workout while sore, you can severely hurt yourself. We have nerves to tell us when things are hurt, if you ignore them, you are asking to be injured. As you work the muscle more, the DOMS will begin to go away due to being in better shape.

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I can only assume he is talking about DOMS since he isn't talking about pain and the soreness is most likely from exercising. In any case of how severe this soreness might be, there is no physiological reason that he can't work out.

The DOMS themselves are the physiological reason. They are tears in the muscle which when can become full sized tears with more stress.

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DOMS are rarely connected with training too hard, but more likely from a new stimulus, ie switching from low reps to high reps, or doing a new exercise.



Soreness caused from DOMS is neither an indicator of muscle breakdown nor of muscle recovery. Your muscles can be fully recovered while still experiencing soreness. The idea that muscles need to be fully recovered before they can be trained again is false by the way, there are several exercise rutines that include 5-6 days of fullbody workouts which are highly effective in both building strength and muscle.

Here's a guy that doesn't know what causes DOMS. I bet you think it's lactic acid, don't ya big guy? Would you like to know that it's actually from tiny tears? Those tears can become full tears if continually stressed. But go ahead and get "swole" all the way to rehab.

[Deleted]

sorry, I dont buy it, 1 study counteracts many others and many years of experience. No, I'll wait for a larger body of evidence before I turn accepted wisdom on its head.

There are several studies to prove the point, studies of the human body hasn't revealed anything about high frequency being counterproductive, on the contrary there are several benefits of it. However i wouldn't recommend it as a go-to plan anyway as it requires certain level of experience.

Besides, as mentioned, if you doubt science then look at the anecdotal evidence. The biggest and strongest athletes, natural that is, is powerlifters and weight lifters.

You should never train while sore. The soreness (Called DOMS: Delayed onset muscle soreness), is caused by tiny tears in your muscle. People think it's lactic acid and they can work it out, but that's not true. If you workout while sore, you can severely hurt yourself. We have nerves to tell us when things are hurt, if you ignore them, you are asking to be injured. As you work the muscle more, the DOMS will begin to go away due to being in better shape.
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The DOMS themselves are the physiological reason. They are tears in the muscle which when can become full sized tears with more stress.

DOMS and muscle recovery are in no way linked. You can be fully recovered, and still experience DOMS in a high degree.

Assume the following, you are used to resistance training doing a 4x8 squats each second day, you do not experience doms. Now you switch squats out with leg extension and do 3x15, as you are inexperienced with leg extensions you will most likely experience DOMS the following day, even though microtrauma is less pronounced than your usual squat rutine. You still experience DOMS on your next leg day, do you really think that it would hurt you to do your leg rutine now that you experience DOMS?

Hint: It wont.

Besides, here is a study that shows training a body part under the influence of DOMS do not affect recovery. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834116

[Torgent]

There are several studies to prove the point, studies of the human body hasn't revealed anything about high frequency being counterproductive, on the contrary there are several benefits of it. However i wouldn't recommend it as a go-to plan anyway as it requires certain level of experience.

Besides, as mentioned, if you doubt science then look at the anecdotal evidence. The biggest and strongest athletes, natural that is, is powerlifters and weight lifters.



DOMS and muscle recovery are in no way linked. You can be fully recovered, and still experience DOMS in a high degree.

Assume the following, you are used to resistance training doing a 4x8 squats each second day, you do not experience doms. Now you switch squats out with leg extension and do 3x15, as you are inexperienced with leg extensions you will most likely experience DOMS the following day, even though microtrauma is less pronounced than your usual squat rutine. You still experience DOMS on your next leg day, do you really think that it would hurt you to do your leg rutine now that you experience DOMS?

Hint: It wont.

Besides, here is a study that shows training a body part under the influence of DOMS do not affect recovery. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11834116

Way to not say anything about what I said. I said working out with DOMS can lead to more severe tears. I said nothing about it's recovery. Any trainer will tell you to rest a sore muscle when changing workout or beginning something new. Those tears can and do get bigger if you don't rest long enough for them to go away. But I guess your muscle magazines know more than trained professionals and physiologists. Also your link isn't referring to DOMS, it's referring to the normal damage that working out causes. Good try though.

[Deleted]

Way to not say anything about what I said. I said working out with DOMS can lead to more severe tears. I said nothing about it's recovery. Any trainer will tell you to rest a sore muscle when changing workout or beginning something new. Those tears can and do get bigger if you don't rest long enough for them to go away. But I guess your muscle magazines know more than trained professionals and physiologists. Also your link isn't referring to DOMS, it's referring to the normal damage that working out causes. Good try though.

Here's a guy that doesn't know what causes DOMS. I bet you think it's lactic acid, don't ya big guy? Would you like to know that it's actually from tiny tears? Those tears can become full tears if continually stressed. But go ahead and get "swole" all the way to rehab.

That is just uncalled for.

Okay so you agree that DOMS and recovery aren't linked, right? Then tell me how DOMS can further damage your muscles even though you might be recovered but still experience DOMS.

DOMS are initially caused by microtrauma, the exact reason for DOMS and why they disappear are unknown. What is for sure though, is that DOMS and microtrauma doesn't correlate in anyway beyond the initial damage meaning that DOMS persist way longer than the actual muscle damage. You are seriously misinformed if you think that microtrauma can lead to any sort of lasting muscle tear.

Make my day, prove me that my 6 years of studying Nutrition and Exercise Physiology are wasted.

[Torgent]

That is just uncalled for.

Okay so you agree that DOMS and recovery aren't linked, right? Then tell me how DOMS can further damage your muscles even though you might be recovered but still experience DOMS.

DOMS are initially caused by microtrauma, the exact reason for DOMS and why they disappear are unknown. What is for sure though, is that DOMS and microtrauma doesn't correlate in anyway beyond the initial damage meaning that DOMS persist way longer than the actual muscle damage. You are seriously misinformed if you think that microtrauma can lead to any sort of lasting muscle tear.

Make my day, prove me that my 6 years of studying Nutrition and Exercise Physiology are wasted.

If you're recovered, your DOMS won't be there. Recovery means all tears and strains are healed, DOMS is caused by tears. You can't have absence of and presence of tears at the same time.

You already proved that those 6 years are wasted, because you don't understand that muscle tears can be worsened by stress. DOMS is present as long as the microscopic tears are present. That is known.

[Marthenil]

I rarely get sore nowadays (4 months after 180-life turn into fitness) but when I did I found out that cardio helped a lot and almost eliminated the pain. So it was like chest/biceps-cardio-back/legs-cardio and so on.

I did however get a massive pain last wednesday. I've been sore before but this was something else. I felt like I got shot. Couldn't breathe and massive chest and back pain.
As the symptoms were extremely similar to angina, I went to the ER. Turned out it was just muscle pain. Even though it's gone, I'll still give it a few days of rest before doing any weight workout. My point, if you are a bit sore then cardio on the next day really helps. If you are extremely sore, give it some time.

[Deleted]

If you're recovered, your DOMS won't be there. Recovery means all tears and strains are healed, DOMS is caused by tears. You can't have absence of and presence of tears at the same time.

You already proved that those 6 years are wasted, because you don't understand that muscle tears can be worsened by stress. DOMS is present as long as the microscopic tears are present. That is known.

Thanks, you proved my point that you are unaware of the underlying mechanics of DOMS.

My previous post might of lacked some information. First of all, the majority of the soreness felt from DOMS is caused by an inflammatory process caused by a new stimulus. This is mostly when starting to workout, but can be triggered too by switching rep ranges or exercises. Microtrauma (muscle tears, in your words) have little to do with the perceived pain, otherwise there would be no explanation as to why we stop experiencing DOMS after a short while, as our body adapts to exercising the inflammatory process get lessened. Actually microtears increase as the cross-sectional area of our muscles increase meaning that if DOMS were a direct cause of microtrauma then DOMS would be gradually increased as our muscles gew.

I hope you realise the following: Microtrauma is essential for muscle hypertrophy, as it is when the muscle is damaged and repaired that it grows larger. The length of DOMS are longest at the initial start of working out, lasting up to a week, as we get more experienced we stop experiencing DOMS. We don't stop getting microtrauma, otherwise we wouldn't be capable of hypertrophy. If DOMS and Microtrauma were linked, then we would be incapable of growing upon the initial few weeks of exercising.

You are welcome to counteract my points, or show me any material that proves me otherwise. I am for one eager to learn new stuff and improve upon what I know, I hope a part of you do as well and stop being so you could perhaps learn something new instead of being stubborn.

[Torgent]

Thanks, you proved my point that you are unaware of the underlying mechanics of DOMS.

My previous post might of lacked some information. First of all, the majority of the soreness felt from DOMS is caused by an inflammatory process caused by a new stimulus. This is mostly when starting to workout, but can be triggered too by switching rep ranges or exercises. Microtrauma (muscle tears, in your words) have little to do with the perceived pain, otherwise there would be no explanation as to why we stop experiencing DOMS after a short while, as our body adapts to exercising the inflammatory process get lessened. Actually microtears increase as the cross-sectional area of our muscles increase meaning that if DOMS were a direct cause of microtrauma then DOMS would be gradually increased as our muscles gew.

I hope you realise the following: Microtrauma is essential for muscle hypertrophy, as it is when the muscle is damaged and repaired that it grows larger. The length of DOMS are longest at the initial start of working out, lasting up to a week, as we get more experienced we stop experiencing DOMS. We don't stop getting microtrauma, otherwise we wouldn't be capable of hypertrophy. If DOMS and Microtrauma were linked, then we would be incapable of growing upon the initial few weeks of exercising.

You are welcome to counteract my points, or show me any material that proves me otherwise. I am for one eager to learn new stuff and improve upon what I know, I hope a part of you do as well and stop being so you could perhaps learn something new instead of being stubborn.

I see you googled nicely and misinterpreted what you found lol. DOMS are caused by microscopic muscle tears. The inflammation thereafter is due to the tears. The pain comes from the Nociceptors within muscles detecting injury or damage. The pain goes away when the muscle has recovered and the tears are gone. Unless your 6 years of study were from a long time ago, you should have paid better attention. Pain doesn't just happen. There is a reason for it. That reason is the tears in the muscle.

I understand perfectly fine that microtrauma is required, but microtrauma and microscopic tears are not the same thing. You're misunderstanding what microtrauma is referring to. The tears involved in DOMS are different. They are from a new stimulus or newly increased load. The tears will become less severe as the muscle gets into better shape to deal with the stress.

[Deleted]

I see you googled nicely and misinterpreted what you found lol. DOMS are caused by microscopic muscle tears. The inflammation thereafter is due to the tears. The pain comes from the Nociceptors within muscles detecting injury or damage. The pain goes away when the muscle has recovered and the tears are gone. Unless your 6 years of study were from a long time ago, you should have paid better attention. Pain doesn't just happen. There is a reason for it. That reason is the tears in the muscle.

I understand perfectly fine that microtrauma is required, but microtrauma and microscopic tears are not the same thing. You're misunderstanding what microtrauma is referring to. The tears involved in DOMS are different. They are from a new stimulus or newly increased load. The tears will become less severe as the muscle gets into better shape to deal with the stress.

My god, are you seriously claming that the muscular damage caused within the first week of working out is somehow different than that happening when you are experienced? Your seriously reaching for straws my friend. If we had to apply this to my previous example of squat vs leg extensions, then explain to how the body would adapt to heavy squatting but still be fragile to something as leg extensions or a higher rep squat rutine? In far the majority of scenarios heavy worksets increase muscular tears more than high volume

Also, Microtrauma and microscopic tears are the exact same thing in this regard. Besides there

Again I direct you to the previous study I mentioned. I don't know whatever or not you can get acces to the whole study, but the participants were exercising perceiving DOMS upon the first trial and none duing the second and no difference were meassured in training with or without DOMS.

[TJ]

I wouldn't train whilst sore, it means you do fewer reps and can sometimes be demotivating, for me anyway. Last time I trained whilst being sore I literally went to the gym and failed on my first exercise, I couldn't do a thing. So now I find that the best thing to do when starting in the gym is to make your schedule and do as much as you can, but don't train when you're sore. Soreness goes after a few weeks so it's not a big deal anyway.

This is my experience and opinion, it hasn't worked well in the past.

[Torgent]

My god, are you seriously claming that the muscular damage caused within the first week of working out is somehow different than that happening when you are experienced? Your seriously reaching for straws my friend. If we had to apply this to my previous example of squat vs leg extensions, then explain to how the body would adapt to heavy squatting but still be fragile to something as leg extensions or a higher rep squat rutine? In far the majority of scenarios heavy worksets increase muscular tears more than high volume

Also, Microtrauma and microscopic tears are the exact same thing in this regard. Besides there

Again I direct you to the previous study I mentioned. I don't know whatever or not you can get acces to the whole study, but the participants were exercising perceiving DOMS upon the first trial and none duing the second and no difference were meassured in training with or without DOMS.

We're speaking of DOMS. DOMS are caused by the microscopic tears that occur often when a new training plan comes in or when weight is increased too steeply. Whether you're new or experienced, if you increase the amount too much or start lifting something new, you can get them. You have a severe lack of understanding of what DOMS are, and that's okay. Just stop arguing with what every trained professional would tell you.

[Deleted]

We're speaking of DOMS. DOMS are caused by the microscopic tears that occur often when a new training plan comes in or when weight is increased too steeply. Whether you're new or experienced, if you increase the amount too much or start lifting something new, you can get them. You have a severe lack of understanding of what DOMS are, and that's okay. Just stop arguing with what every trained professional would tell you.

Your not brining anything new to the table. Let me direct you to the following and hopefully you will learn something.

http://suppversity.blogspot.dk/2013/...s-what-is.html
http://suppversity.blogspot.dk/2013/...reness-no.html

Here are some important parts to take home from the articles

"It is not a singular mechanism but rather a result of several mechanisms beginning with microtrauma followed by an inflammatory response (Lewis. 2012)."

"Although DOMS may make you rethink taking the stairs the next day, its effect on exercise is minimal. "

"Assuming you have a rest day or are on some form of a split-routine, DOMS is not a contributor to perceived exertion"

"DOMS can be thought of as a sign of muscle damage, but it is the damage itself and the subsequent inflammatory response that are responsible for hypertrophy. DOMS is actually a rather poor indicator of muscle damage and will not always reflect the magnitude of the damage (Nosaka, et al., 2002). Nor will it always be present."

If you read the articles, and understand what is being said you would also understand that there is no physiological reason that training with a muscle with induced DOMS put you at any risk. The only thing detrimental about training with DOMS is your ability to perform optimal, however as also mentioned in the articles, muscle activation decreases DOMS which means a proper warmup will decrease the perceived soreness. The biggest risk you can take when training with DOMS is that starting with too high of a weight and then not having proper form.

Just stop arguing with what every trained professional would tell you

Right i bet i need to eat 6 meals a day to stay anabolic, need to take a shake postworkout to hit the anabolic window and not train more than 45 minutes at a time or i will overtrain. Sound argument considering 95% of proffesional trainers are total bro's with nothing more than an 8 week certificate program.

How about listening to the scientists that actually provide data and knowlegde other than 'trainers' that echo what they read in magazines.