Why is it that women can opt out of taking care of a child but men can't?

[Deleted]

Your argument would be valid if abortion wasn't shamed, criticized, and women weren't conditioned to feel like murderers for undergoing the process.

What should they feel like instead? Independent?

They just killed a human fetus.

How about women don't get pregnant? Perish the thought, eh?

[Vexxilus]

Your argument would be valid if abortion wasn't shamed, criticized, and women weren't conditioned to feel like murderers for undergoing the process.
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As is happens, the above does happen, and a lot of women don't see the choice. If you want to blame something, blame society, and when the topic presents itself in such a way, don't make abortion out to be something someone should be afraid to do.
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Addendum, a lot of parents don't teach their kids about birth control, and even birth control is shamed.

So women aren't strong independent thinkers capable of making adult decisions but irresponsible sheep succumbing to peer pressure?

[Speaknoevil]

What should they feel like instead? Independent?

Yes.

They just killed a human fetus.

Hyperbole. A fetus isn't alive the way we are, much in the same way a jellyfish isn't. SO saying it's killed, with all the colloquial associations with the word is disingenuous.

How about women don't get pregnant? Perish the thought, eh?

See:

a lot of parents don't teach their kids about birth control, and even birth control is shamed.

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So women aren't strong independent thinkers capable of making adult decisions but irresponsible sheep succumbing to peer pressure?

Most people are sheep, this is merely a form it takes on women in certain demographics. Much in the same way military is glorified at the expense of young men in the same demographic.

[Rukentuts]

They just killed a human fetus.

How do you kill that which has no life?

Personhood*

[Deleted]

How do you kill that which has no life?

Personhood*

To be fair, it is killing the fetus but that does not mean it's wrong. Murder is wrong, killing a fetus is not murder.

[Tamberav]

ha! I think the dad should be aborted. The child literally has absolute zero say and you want to financially abandon it? What a dead beat dad.

[Laraven]

Look at all 3 things separately.

Conception - Both men and women have the choice to not allow this to happen. Not having sex 100%, birth control, vasectomy, and tubal ligation all controlling pregnancy but not 100% safe. Still taking a chance. Who is at fault is contraception fails? BOTH the man and the women! (it takes 2 to conceive.)

Pregnancy - Only the women has say over what risks she wants to take with HER body. Both childbirth and abortion have medical/emotional risks. The women will also have to deal with a very strong, natural instinct to not harm her unborn offspring. Choosing to interrupt pregnancy with abortion, will no doubt cause extreme emotion pain, physical pain, and financial strain. (Medical costs for abortion and post abortion check ups $1000-$1500) IF a women was to choose abortion, who pays for this?

Also, the women has the right to not even concider abortion as an option due to religious reasons, or moral reasons that the man has no say over. And no man should "bully" her into abortion against her wishes. Her body. Her choice. End of story. In this case there is only the option of carrying the child to full term.

Birth - Choosing to carry the pregnancy also has medical, emotional and financial risks. Rather the women didn't "opt out" of the pregnancy because of religious issues, or whatever, A child is now born by the way of 2 biological parents. Now after birth, the women will deal with the release of HIGH amounts of hormones that instinctively tell her to nurture her offspring. She will be in emotional stress and physical pain. Financial burden of the birth in the eyes of the hospital falls on the mother. Medical costs of full term pregnancy and natural birth $10,000. (pre-natal care, and vaginal delivery, and after care.) Add another $5000 on top of that for a c-section. Add in thousands more if the infant requires NICU or has complications.

She chooses to give the child up for adoption. She would need the bio father to sign the birth certificate and sign off parental rights as well. Both parties are no longer liable for the child. BUT who is responsible for the birth costs? The women of course. Who has to deal with more emotional stress? The women. Who has to deal with Physical pain? The women. What investment does the man have in his mistake? Not much. His body will not be forever changed. His life can go on as if it never happened.

She chooses to keep the child. Bonding instantly with her new born. The way it was meant to be.
Should this child suffer financially because the bio parents were not responsible in taking risks having sex?
________

IMO, as soon as the women makes the choice to carry the child to term BOTH parents must be responsible to make sure that child is provided for. By adoption, or some other means. If adoption is not a choice for the mother, then the father owes this women and child financial support. It is the women who has to burden everything in this mistake. This is why she gets majority vote. Helping financially is the least the man could do for his own offspring.

[Speaknoevil]

To be fair, it is killing the fetus but that's not wrong. Murder is wrong, killing a fetus is not murder.

And like I said, the phrasing he used is meant to illicit certain emotions, these connotations make it a false statement.

[Stir]

Your argument would be valid if abortion wasn't shamed, criticized, and women weren't conditioned to feel like murderers for undergoing the process.

And this is horrible, and needs to change.
That doesn't change the validity of any arguments that account for abortion; it just means that society as a whole is still retarded.

[Vexxilus]

Most people are sheep, this is merely a form it takes on women in certain demographics.

If someone can't stand up for themselves or make a decision in their best interest without succumbing to peer pressure then they have no business being classified as an adult. I would like to think any intelligent person would want laws that are made with strong independent people in mind If the weak willed refuse to seize the opportunities made available to them then so be it, but don't make the rest of us suffer for their stupidity.

[Deleted]

Yes.

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too?

Hyperbole. A fetus isn't alive the way we are, much in the same way a jellyfish isn't. SO saying it's killed, with all the colloquial associations with the word is disingenuous.

It's still a human fetus. The key word being human. Have you ever seen a human fetus just before it's allowed to be terminated? It looks human. When I say terminated, I mean sometimes they suck that little person with their tiny beating heart to pieces.

And you're proud of yourself?


Why don't you just not get pregnant? What if there was no such thing as abortion? What would you do then? It would force you to be responsible.

[Laize]

It was not a unilateral decision to engage in intercourse (except for the case of rape, which I mentioned earlier should be considered a special circumstance), so no one parent should have to shoulder 100% of the burden for decisions that two people made.

As mentioned, consent to sex is not consent to parenthood.

Therefore, whether or not the pregnancy culminates in a child is entirely the unilateral decision of the mother.

Therefore, the man should not be held responsible for her decision.

[Rukentuts]

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too?

Personhood dude.

It's still a human fetus. The key word being human. Have you ever seen a human fetus just before it's allowed to be terminated? It looks human. When I say terminated, I mean sometimes they suck that little person with their tiny heartbeat to pieces.

It's about as much a human being as one of my hands.

And you're proud of yourself?

Not helping yourself.

Why don't you just not get pregnant? What if there was no such thing as abortion? What would you do then? It would force you to be responsible.

Yeah, abortion rates aren't falling rapidly, or anything.

[Speaknoevil]

And this is horrible, and needs to change.
That doesn't change the validity of any arguments that account for abortion; it just means that society as a whole is still retarded.

It changes the validity relative to the other facts at hand, it's making the best of a bad situation, choosing the better of two bad options.

If someone can't stand up for themselves or make a decision in their best interest without succumbing to peer pressure then they have no business being classified as an adult. I would like to think any intelligent person would want laws that are made with strong independent people in mind If the weak willed refuse to seize the opportunities made available to them then so be it, but don't make the rest of us suffer for their stupidity.

Don't be naive. It isn't peer pressure, it's societal brain washing. Most people are not above it in one way or the other.

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too? It's still a human fetus. The key word being human. Have you ever seen a human fetus just before it's allowed to be terminated? It looks human. When I say terminated, I mean sometimes they suck that little person with their tiny beating heart to pieces.

And you're proud of yourself?


Why don't you just not get pregnant? What if there was no such thing as abortion? What would you do then? It would force you to be responsible.

Yes I am proud of myself. I want you to know how amusing I find your rhetoric.

[Deleted]

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too?

They can feel how they want to about it. They're not murdering a child, a fetus is not a child. They're killing a fetus, killing a fetus is not murder.

It's still a human fetus. The key word being human. Have you ever seen a human fetus just before it's allowed to be terminated? It looks human. When I say terminated, I mean sometimes they suck that little person with their tiny beating heart to pieces.

Whether it's a human fetus or not matters little. What it looks like matters little. It's not a person at the time abortion is allowed.

Why don't you just not get pregnant? What if there was no such thing as abortion? What would you do then? It would force you to be responsible.

Women can not simply just not get pregnant, they have no control over it once sperm is inside the uterus if there is an egg that they fertilize. Did you ever receive sexual education when you were going to school?

[AeneasBK]

Therefore, the man should not be held responsible for her decision.

He won't be if he can avoid getting her pregnant.

[Stir]

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too?

There is no child. The 'child' in this debate is a possible outcome of a pregnancy that might never really happen to begin with. There is no child.

It's still a human fetus. The key word being human. Have you ever seen a human fetus just before it's allowed to be terminated? It looks human. When I say terminated, I mean sometimes they suck that little person with their tiny heartbeat to pieces.

No. The key word is not 'human,' because if it was, then toenails would have rights. A human toenail?
A 'human' fetus prior to being terminated looks like this:


So drop the appeal to emotion.

And you're proud of yourself?

For making a tough decision that generates the least amount of harm?
Bloody hell yes.

Why don't you just not get pregnant? What if there was no such thing as abortion? What would you do then? It would force you to be responsible.

When engaged in sexual activity, the chance of becoming pregnant is small. And the reason for that is: Humans have sex for many, many different reasons. Like other apes, dolphins and many other species, sexual activity has become important for our mental health and personal growth. However, originally, the reason for it was to reproduce... But that was millions of years ago. Today, sexual activity has a social and psychological purpose as well as a reproductive one. Denying oneself sexual activity is bad for your mental and social health.
With sexual activity, however, comes the risk of unwanted pregnancy. That risk is countered by preventatives, but they are not 100% failsafe. Still; the safety of those methods is good enough to enjoy worry-free sex.
Every now and then, a pregnancy does occur even when using preventatives. This is an anomaly that cannot be calculated against. Every now and then, when a person crosses the street, they will be hit by a car.

If there was no abortion? My dear... Abortion has been around for thousands of years. Usually by ingestion of a mild toxin (not perfectly safe either). A... Morning-after herbal tea or something was the standard approach in much of Eurasia, at least. What if there wasn't any abortion? That's not a real question, though, because abortion exists because of what I said above.

[Hraklea]

Should they feel proud of killing their own child too?

Abortion is a pregnancy interruption, it doesn't kill the child. The children dies naturally because we don't have technology to make it survive the abortion. A c-section, for example, is a pregnancy interruption where the children lives.

Saying that a woman is killing the child by refusing to provide her uterus to the baby is like saying that people who refuse to donate organs are murderers. It is not the woman's fault that the fetus cannot survive outside her.

[Deleted]

Personhood dude.

Does knowing that you haven't killed a person even though it looks like a small person make you feel better?

If we train our conscience well it will kiss us as it bites.

Yeah, abortion rates aren't falling rapidly, or anything.

People are taking less risks in this terrible economy, which is what I would expect. Many women simply can't afford to have abortions. I feel sorry for them but it will force other people to be more responsible.

Sex has consequences.

Yes I am proud of myself. I want you to know how amusing I find your rhetoric.

I'm sure you do.

I know your type. You are encouraging people to be irresponsible by making abortion a first resort as opposed to a last resort. You have made death the solution to everyone's problems.

You remember what you said when you see a woman who has had four abortions before she's even 30. We're forgetting the fact that this isn't a minor medical procedure either; abortions can kill women or have other long lasting side effects.

But you think that women should be proud of having abortions?

They can feel how they want to about it. They're not murdering a child, a fetus is not a child. They're killing a fetus, killing a fetus is not murder.

Then why is there even a debate? And don't bring religion into this. I know even atheists who are pro-life.

Women can not simply just not get pregnant...

Yes they can. Don't have sex, or use contraception, or how about don't be promiscuous?

There is no child. The 'child' in this debate is a possible outcome of a pregnancy that might never really happen to begin with. There is no child.

Not yet.

No. The key word is not 'human,' because if it was, then toenails would have rights. A human toenail?
A 'human' fetus prior to being terminated looks like this:

Don't forget the tiny beating heart.

For making a tough decision that generates the least amount of harm?
Bloody hell yes.

Sorry but murdering a defenseless innocent life isn't something you should be proud of.

With sexual activity, however, comes the risk of unwanted pregnancy. That risk is countered by preventatives, but they are not 100% failsafe. Still; the safety of those methods is good enough to enjoy worry-free sex.
Every now and then, a pregnancy does occur even when using preventatives. This is an anomaly that cannot be calculated against. Every now and then, when a person crosses the street, they will be hit by a car.

You know, you know there's a risk. So everything that happens to you is your own fault.

So you pay for your own mistakes. Don't make me pay for your contraception. I don't want to subsidize people's sex orgies.

If people are forced to be responsible then it would minimize the risk of unwanted pregnancies dramatically. I don't see the problem. Be responsible, because one day, there might not be anyone there to bail you out.

[Speaknoevil]

Stir, the above is a perfect example of what I was talking about, and why the post I quoted before is currently invalid.
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It's people like Garian you can thank for child support being upheld, and morally correct.