No Valor or Justice Points in WoD according to article

[SL1200]

Of course coins protect you from bad luck.

Not to mention the fact we actually have LUCK PROTECTION in the background these days. Every week you don't get loot your loot chance goes up. Blizzard would be a lot smarter if they actually displayed your loot chance...

What about JP/VP protects you from bad luck in SoO? You can't buy anything for them other than old content gear.

I remember when the forums were wall to wall people bitching that you shouldn't be able to get raid gear outside of raids...

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Of course coins protect you from bad luck.

Not to mention the fact we actually have LUCK PROTECTION in the background these days. Every week you don't get loot your loot chance goes up. Blizzard would be a lot smarter if they actually displayed your loot chance...

What about JP/VP protects you from bad luck in SoO? You can't buy anything for them other than old content gear.

I remember when the forums were wall to wall people bitching that you shouldn't be able to get raid gear outside of raids...

No coins didn't stop me from not having a 4 piece until after we downed Garrosh. I just like the currencies. They've existed in some form as long as i've been playing.

The forums may have been full of people bitching that you shouldn't be able to get raid gear outside of raids, but i was never one of them. I liked it better when you were able to buy decent gear with badges and points.

[Zandrae]

This is a pretty awful change for people with chronic bad luck.

[Mormolyce]

No coins didn't stop me from not having a 4 piece until after we downed Garrosh. I just like the currencies. They've existed in some form as long as i've been playing.

The forums may have been full of people bitching that you shouldn't be able to get raid gear outside of raids, but i was never one of them. I liked it better when you were able to buy decent gear with badges and points.

You haven't been able to buy 4set with VP since Wrath.

Do they guarantee you loot? No. Do they counter bad luck? Yes.

WoW loot has RNG, always has and apparently always will.

[Zka]

First I thought this is the first change I don't like, but then I read the article.

"The bonus roll system, introduced in patch 5.0, allows players another chance at a boss’ loot table upon completing a raid. With each roll, the chances of getting an item appropriate to the player’s loot specialisation increases."

That means coins are the new valor and the only flipside is that you can't properly gear your offspec without actually playing it.

[cFortyfive]

No coins didn't stop me from not having a 4 piece until after we downed Garrosh. I just like the currencies. They've existed in some form as long as i've been playing.

The forums may have been full of people bitching that you shouldn't be able to get raid gear outside of raids, but i was never one of them. I liked it better when you were able to buy decent gear with badges and points.

I actually agree. I don't mind a couple usable pieces being available via valor especially knowing that I yesterday used my eighth bonusroll without getting a piece of loot while I know others pulling out warforged after warforged item every roll. Doesn't have to be a full set just a bit usable stuff.

[wariofan1]

Good, I haven't liked it since its introduction in TBC, and I really hate how overly accessible it made things in Wrath. Reroll coins are enough of a loot savior as is.

[Ronduwil]

That means coins are the new valor and the only flipside is that you can't properly gear your offspec without actually playing it.

You obviously are unaware of the loot specialization feature they added a few patches ago. You can now opt to get LFR/Flex/Coin loot for any spec regardless of the one you're currently playing in. This is one of the best features they ever added because it now lets me get DPS gear while healing in raid groups. So the group gets another healer and I get the DPS gear I want. It's a win-win.

[Zka]

You obviously are unaware of the loot specialization feature they added a few patches ago. You can now opt to get LFR/Flex/Coin loot for any spec regardless of the one you're currently playing in.

Ah cool, haven't been playing for 1 year If that will work for all bonus rolls in WoD, all is fine.

[Deleted]

The reason badges were introduced is to compensate those who had bad luck with drops.
The reason Justice/Valor points were introduced was to streamline badges and simply make lower tiers dungeon/raids reward less points and higher tier gear cost more points
Cata/MoP happened and points showered harder than people could spend them resulting in introduction of trade goods purchase and gear upgrade

Now they supposedly remove them which means:
No compensation for bad luck with drops
No gear upgrading
No trade good purchase

All of this makes gearing up loner and as such makes people play more.

It's a profit deal!

[Icaras]

The concern I have is that I still have value in earning points and running heroics on my various characters when they have gear. In WoD, will I be faced with a situation where its not raid night, yet I need no normal/heroic dungeon gear, and as theres no points system...no real need to run dungeons other than for shits and giggles?


Seems like a BAAADDD idea to me.

[Pua]

http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/blizzard...rlords-draenor

Seems both currencies are to be removed and loot will be purely handed out through drops.

Seems alright to me, Valor points are pretty irrelevant these days and just used to upgrade, Justice points have barely any use.

I’m extremely concerned about this.

Taking my own preference for currency-gearing aside (honestly, I think it’s the best way), I’m worried about some of the commentary. “Bonus rolls help to mitigate runs of bad luck (paraphrased)”. Yeah, sure, assuming you’re raiding. Hazzikostas also mentions that they’re going to try and make the bonus roll system more intelligent to avoid duplicate drops. Again, great… If you’re raiding. What’s going to be done to stop the redundancy of content below raiding in this system? Considering dungeons and scenarios are completely redundant at the moment with the valor/justice system, I dread to think what’ll happen to them without it. Let’s also consider the other activities that could potentially reward valor; pet battles, the proving grounds (seeing as they’re now going to be a necessity), garrisons, questing or profession-related content? It all becomes less connected with what this idiot clearly believes is what the entire experience should be about.

To me, it just looks like another step toward raiding. If you don’t want to raid, you’re going to have to accept that your character is never going to develop.

In short, a niche activity is going to dictate your entire rise in strength – even more than it does today.

It’s got Hazzikostas written all over it.

Now obviously, this is just a preliminary interview. There could be a lot of changes, and we could potentially argue that armour changing depending on spec could also solve a lot of these issues. But that armour is still only going to come from raiding. More information is needed on this before a full judgement can be made. But honestly, this is potentially one step too far away from the game’s golden age.

[miffy23]

I’m extremely concerned about this.

Taking my own preference for currency-gearing aside (honestly, I think it’s the best way), I’m worried about some of the commentary. “Bonus rolls help to mitigate runs of bad luck (paraphrased)”. Yeah, sure, assuming you’re raiding. Hazzikostas also mentions that they’re going to try and make the bonus roll system more intelligent to avoid duplicate drops. Again, great… If you’re raiding. What’s going to be done to stop the redundancy of content below raiding in this system? Considering dungeons and scenarios are completely redundant at the moment with the valor/justice system, I dread to think what’ll happen to them without it. Let’s also consider the other activities that could potentially reward valor; pet battles, the proving grounds (seeing as they’re now going to be a necessity), garrisons, questing or profession-related content? It all becomes less connected with what this idiot clearly believes is what the entire experience should be about.

To me, it just looks like another step toward raiding. If you don’t want to raid, you’re going to have to accept that your character is never going to develop.

In short, a niche activity is going to dictate your entire rise in strength – even more than it does today.

It’s got Hazzikostas written all over it.

Now obviously, this is just a preliminary interview. There could be a lot of changes, and we could potentially argue that armour changing depending on spec could also solve a lot of these issues. But that armour is still only going to come from raiding. More information is needed on this before a full judgement can be made. But honestly, this is potentially one step too far away from the game’s golden age.

You're not really making sense here.

On the one hand, you argue that someone who doesn't raid has no incentive to run dungeon content without Valor points. But then, why get Valor point gear if that person never intends to raid? That person is already locked into redundant and finite content by personal choice alone, and nothing else. Adding or removing Valor points changes nothing in his/her situation, they are purely intended for people to gear up for content x, mostly raiding, even if it's just LFR.

I don't know if you actively play right now, but Valor is pretty much an irrelevant thing right now. All you use it for is to upgrade your gear, which btw isn't necessary at all. Justice is just as useless save to get heirlooms, which can be easily done with something else, like gold.

I think you missed the point of the new system in WoD, where basically every activity grants actual drops in some fashion, instead of currency. Garrisons will net you gear through follower quests and crafting. Challenge modes will grant daily rewards at or above LFR ilvl. Heroic dungeons will award gear at or above LFR ilvl. Furthermore, the plan this time is to keep adding group content (meaning 5 mans, not just scenarios).

The goal is clear: run stuff to get loot, not to cap because you feel you have to. You're also forgetting the new itemization. Tertiary stats, sockets and warforged will at least in part (tertiary at least, sockets likely) be randomly rolled even on dungeon gear, making it always worthwhile to still run content you already have all your drops from - you might still get an upgrade from a boss drop.

All-in-all, I don't think removing currencies is an argument against 5 man content, not with the loot changes in place. Along with the intended speeding up of content to be released (let's see if it happens), it should all be much more incentivizing.

PS: I also happen to believe that Hazzikostas is the shining beacon at Blizzard right now, this guy just GETS it. Most of the changes in WoD smell of his philosophy, and they are GREAT.

PSS: I'd also like to add that your entire concept of "rising in strength" is simply flawed and hasn't been reflected in the game, ever. Valor point gear is intended to help people catch up and to fill up slots that they are not getting raid grops from. It was intended to help gear up for raids, nothing else. You don't require Valor point gear to run heroic 5 mans, heck you don't need it for Challenge Modes. But by your argument the point of running group content is for Valor gear - which you use for...?

[Pua]

You're not really making sense here.

On the one hand, you argue that someone who doesn't raid has no incentive to run dungeon content without Valor points. But then, why get Valor point gear if that person never intends to raid? That person is already locked into redundant and finite content by personal choice alone, and nothing else. Adding or removing Valor points changes nothing in his/her situation, they are purely intended for people to gear up for content x, mostly raiding, even if it's just LFR.

Ah, the old “I don’t agree so you don’t make sense” approach; I love it when discussions start like this.

You’re firing off with the assumption (and that’s all it is) that players don’t need valor gear if they don’t intend to raid. That’s incorrect. Many non-raiders do, in fact, want their characters to develop and like the idea that it can happen without grinding the ghetto of LFR or committing to a schedule that someone else dictates to them. This is so that they can quest more easily, complete the solo-scenarios that we’re going to see and enjoy things like rare-hunting or achievement chasing. Presumably we’ll see more scenarios and dungeons throughout the expansion, as well as other content such as the Timeless Isle, and people would like to take part in that, too.

In short, arguing that only raiders need valor gear is incorrect. It may be what you believe, but it’s not reflected in the activity of all players.

Secondly, you’re letting yourself slip by then saying that players who don’t raid are “locked into redundant and finite content”. What makes it redundant? Your opinion? That’s not how it works. In one expansion, a so-called “lol feature” called pet battles has already made itself more popular than organised raiding; substantially so. If there was meaningful dungeon and scenario content throughout the expansion, plus other sources of valor such as the pet battles I’ve mentioned and depending on how garrisons shake out, there’s nothing objectively “redundant” about it.

You don’t like it, and that’s fine. That’s your choice.

But arguing that it’s redundant because of that? Well, that’s you not making any sense.

I don't know if you actively play right now, but Valor is pretty much an irrelevant thing right now. All you use it for is to upgrade your gear, which btw isn't necessary at all. Justice is just as useless save to get heirlooms, which can be easily done with something else, like gold.

I think it’s sad that valor has become irrelevant right now, but that doesn’t mean it should be ditched wholesale. Again, however, you’re arguing from your own view and trying to use it as universal; valor gear “isn’t necessary at all”? It’s a way for players of less experience or skill to perhaps get over a gearing hump that will allow them to progress, or just maximise the gear they’ve already got. An average of eight item levels is significant for an individual player, and massive across a raid group.

From my own point of view (and just to be clear, that’s all it is), WotLK was so successful because of the currency gearing that emblems allowed. Players could gear up in dungeons or raids if they chose via this currency, as well as extra dungeons with 3.3, because of this system. The result was dungeon queues being full well beyond their sell-by-date, something that’s completely vanished since then, while also starting off the opportunity for players to buy craft items or heirlooms from their currencies. In short, rather than buying gear, they could pick up other things that weren’t necessarily related to performance, but were an encouragement to keep playing the game the way you want to.

If it were me, I’d spread the currency across much more of the content so that people really could play how they like and then develop how they like. Maybe they want more pets, perhaps it could be craft materials, or how about mounts that can be purchased along with heirlooms? And, yes, more gear so that your access to stuff outside of raids isn’t needlessly hampered as a result.

I think you missed the point of the new system in WoD, where basically every activity grants actual drops in some fashion, instead of currency. Garrisons will net you gear through follower quests and crafting. Challenge modes will grant daily rewards at or above LFR ilvl. Heroic dungeons will award gear at or above LFR ilvl. Furthermore, the plan this time is to keep adding group content (meaning 5 mans, not just scenarios).

No, I didn’t miss the point. The problem is just what these activities will drop. Quests, garrisons and challenge modes may well drop LFR gear but what happens after that? How will that be levied against future tiers of raiding content? We don’t know. You’ve also stated that heroic dungeons will award gear at or above LFR item level, and we don’t know that yet; my suspicion is that it will be lower. You also mention that the plan is to keep adding group content, but it’s nothing more than that; a plan. Nothing has been guaranteed.

I’ve not missed anything.

The goal is clear: run stuff to get loot, not to cap because you feel you have to. You're also forgetting the new itemization. Tertiary stats, sockets and warforged will at least in part (tertiary at least, sockets likely) be randomly rolled even on dungeon gear, making it always worthwhile to still run content you already have all your drops from - you might still get an upgrade from a boss drop.

Nope, I’m not forgetting the new itemization. If you think about it, this could easily be fashioned into an argument for currency gearing because you might want to buy the same piece more than once to see if you get different tertiaries attached, or gem slots. Sure, you could run dungeons more, but that doesn’t have to be the exclusive way of making this work. I’m not sure why you’re implying it needs to be.

I agree, the rush to cap is something of a nuisance – but I’d be more inclined to put in a spending cap rather than farming cap, allowing the player to choose when and where they want to ramp up. I’m all for player choice rather than Blizzard railroading people into what THEY think we should be doing.

All-in-all, I don't think removing currencies is an argument against 5 man content, not with the loot changes in place. Along with the intended speeding up of content to be released (let's see if it happens), it should all be much more incentivizing.

That’s not really the point I’m trying to make. What I’m saying is that raiding is currently the be-all and end-all of character development, which is not what the vast majority of players want. These changes imply that this will remain the paradigm into Warlords, which is (in my view) the wrong route to be taking.

PS: I also happen to believe that Hazzikostas is the shining beacon at Blizzard right now, this guy just GETS it. Most of the changes in WoD smell of his philosophy, and they are GREAT.

That’s your belief, and you’re entitled to it. Personally, I don’t think he gets it at all and is an arrogant, patronizing asswipe to boot. The data recently shared by Blizzard (some of which we knew already) simply doesn’t support the raid >>>>>>> everything mentality he has, yet we’re stuck with it. That said, I agree that this design stinks of his philosophy.

In my opinion, Cory Stockton is the guy Blizzard couldn’t stand to lose. He’s imaginative, approachable and seems to appreciate the playerbase and its desires far more than Hazzikostas or Street ever did.

[Cassidin]

I think this will have a knock on effect to queue times tbh. I suspect I am not alone but I have regularly queued for LFRs or Flex runs that I have already done that week just for some quick VP. Having overgeared people in lower LFRs certainly helps the run go more smoothly so is a benefit for all concerned I feel. Removing VP would mean I have no reason at all to do this. While I wont miss spending extra hours in LFRs/Flex where I have no gear to get the knock on effect is that there will be less people queuing.

[miffy23]

Mhm, I think you thoroughly misunderstood me in most cases, Zell. Let's see.

Ah, the old “I don’t agree so you don’t make sense” approach; I love it when discussions start like this.

I don't think your stance on Valor gear makes sense no. That's not to imply your opinion is without merit or i'm not listening to it, because obviously, I did adress it.

You’re firing off with the assumption (and that’s all it is) that players don’t need valor gear if they don’t intend to raid. That’s incorrect. Many non-raiders do, in fact, want their characters to develop and like the idea that it can happen without grinding the ghetto of LFR or committing to a schedule that someone else dictates to them. This is so that they can quest more easily, complete the solo-scenarios that we’re going to see and enjoy things like rare-hunting or achievement chasing. Presumably we’ll see more scenarios and dungeons throughout the expansion, as well as other content such as the Timeless Isle, and people would like to take part in that, too.

In short, arguing that only raiders need valor gear is incorrect. It may be what you believe, but it’s not reflected in the activity of all players.

Secondly, you’re letting yourself slip by then saying that players who don’t raid are “locked into redundant and finite content”. What makes it redundant? Your opinion? That’s not how it works. In one expansion, a so-called “lol feature” called pet battles has already made itself more popular than organised raiding; substantially so. If there was meaningful dungeon and scenario content throughout the expansion, plus other sources of valor such as the pet battles I’ve mentioned and depending on how garrisons shake out, there’s nothing objectively “redundant” about it.

You don’t like it, and that’s fine. That’s your choice.

But arguing that it’s redundant because of that? Well, that’s you not making any sense.

You've misunderstood me here. I personally don't find 5 mans redundant without Valor points. You were making that claim. This is why I adressed this part of the subject with said wording. It is my belief that the new itemization system will dispel most if not all of your concerns.

You don't seem to realize that Valor points haven't really been a thing since early 5.2. Upgrading gear is the only thing we use it for, and that can easily be handled through other mechanics, such as drop tokens to upgrade armor pieces and the like.

I think it’s sad that valor has become irrelevant right now, but that doesn’t mean it should be ditched wholesale. Again, however, you’re arguing from your own view and trying to use it as universal; valor gear “isn’t necessary at all”? It’s a way for players of less experience or skill to perhaps get over a gearing hump that will allow them to progress, or just maximise the gear they’ve already got. An average of eight item levels is significant for an individual player, and massive across a raid group.

You're consistently not realizing that there are many more avenues to get gear of Valor level in WoD than now in MoP. Yes, Heroic dungeons will drop "equal or higher ilvl than LFR" (Hazzikostas) same goes for Challenge Mode daily rewards. Garrison follower quests will reward "epic items" (Blizzcon). In short, in 5.0 and 5.2 Valor gear was the ONLY avenue for non-raiders to gain upgrades, through rep gating and running the same content over and over. In 6.0, there will be many more avenues open for non-raiders to gain items without having to grind points, but instead by choosing the activity they prefer. Isn't this exactly what you want?

From my own point of view (and just to be clear, that’s all it is), WotLK was so successful because of the currency gearing that emblems allowed. Players could gear up in dungeons or raids if they chose via this currency, as well as extra dungeons with 3.3, because of this system. The result was dungeon queues being full well beyond their sell-by-date, something that’s completely vanished since then, while also starting off the opportunity for players to buy craft items or heirlooms from their currencies. In short, rather than buying gear, they could pick up other things that weren’t necessarily related to performance, but were an encouragement to keep playing the game the way you want to.

Did you miss the point where you get LFR-level gear from Heroics, Challenge Modes AND Garrisons? You're going to be rewarded for actively playing the game more than ever in WoD.

If it were me, I’d spread the currency across much more of the content so that people really could play how they like and then develop how they like. Maybe they want more pets, perhaps it could be craft materials, or how about mounts that can be purchased along with heirlooms? And, yes, more gear so that your access to stuff outside of raids isn’t needlessly hampered as a result.

Again, you're getting way more access to decent gear in WoD without being forced into looking for the most efficient way for you personally to grind an arbitrary currency. Craft materials and likely pets will definitely be a large part of Garrison boni, next to gear and cosmetics.
Removing Valor points isn't equivalent to removing access to decent gear for non-raiders, in fact it's quite the opposite. Both sides are getting more for their active gameplay in WoD.

No, I didn’t miss the point. The problem is just what these activities will drop. Quests, garrisons and challenge modes may well drop LFR gear but what happens after that? How will that be levied against future tiers of raiding content? We don’t know. You’ve also stated that heroic dungeons will award gear at or above LFR item level, and we don’t know that yet; my suspicion is that it will be lower. You also mention that the plan is to keep adding group content, but it’s nothing more than that; a plan. Nothing has been guaranteed.

I’ve not missed anything.

@hc dungeons, we do, Hazzikostas stated it himself. "at or above LFR level". Normal will gear you for LFR, Heroic will award equivalent gear and along with Challenge Modes will be the alternate route to gear up for raids (the intended one for raiders).

Naturally, with this system new content must be added as well as old content upgraded as tiers are released. They've already stated around Blizzcon that they intend to keep the 6.0 dungeon content relevant throughout the expansion as well as releasing more 5 man content. You can choose to disbelieve that, but based on the itemization system 6.0 is shipping with, there's really no other choice. I don't think you need worry about them simply forgetting everyone but raiders as soon as 6.1, this hasn't been the case...ever. Catch-up mechanics like in MoP will be abundant, as well as new group content. Also yet again, you state that "how will group content be levied against future raid content"? The only reason it would HAVE to be levied is if the gear is required/helps to gain access to the new raids. Otherwise, what do you need the higher gear for? To kill world quest mobs in 1.1 secs instead of 1.5 secs? I understand of course everyone wants some form of character advancement, but ilvl is simply chained to raid content progression, and nothing else. It's never been any other way. That isn't to say that there won't be a crap ton of alternate activities. As you rightly stated, pet battles are wildly popular, as Garrisons will be.

Nope, I’m not forgetting the new itemization. If you think about it, this could easily be fashioned into an argument for currency gearing because you might want to buy the same piece more than once to see if you get different tertiaries attached, or gem slots. Sure, you could run dungeons more, but that doesn’t have to be the exclusive way of making this work. I’m not sure why you’re implying it needs to be.

Buying an item simply feels that much more underwhelming than having it drop. It's simply less exciting, and this has been stated to be part of their philosophy for a long time now. They've never liked the currency shop system, but they couldn't find another satisfying way of keeping the majority happy with their character progression. In WoD the new avenues for gearing as well as the new itemization will change things radically.

In a way, it's comparable to the Loot 2.0 philosophy of D3 which is now being implemented - get more for you personally through playing the actual game, and less through "hoarding and spending", ie AH and Valor points. Ofc these are radically different systems and games, but the philosophy shift is similar.

I agree, the rush to cap is something of a nuisance – but I’d be more inclined to put in a spending cap rather than farming cap, allowing the player to choose when and where they want to ramp up. I’m all for player choice rather than Blizzard railroading people into what THEY think we should be doing.

You don't seem to realize that Valor points give you very little choice, while pretty much all forms of gameplay actually awarding possible upgrades for non-raiders will feel much more rewarding and motivating.
What would you rather have? Getting rid of your valor farm over a month or two to buy those 5 or 6 items for your spec until you can fold your hands and wait? Or possibly get upgrades from pretty much every aspect of the game open to you, from Garrisons to Heroics to Challenge Modes and probably Reputation rewards as well as Heroic Scenarios, all the while continually still having a chance of getting an upgrade (warforged, better tertiary, socket).

That’s not really the point I’m trying to make. What I’m saying is that raiding is currently the be-all and end-all of character development, which is not what the vast majority of players want. These changes imply that this will remain the paradigm into Warlords, which is (in my view) the wrong route to be taking.

I think you're utterly mistaken, it's actually the opposite. Casuals and non-raiders will have more options than ever to gain more and more diverse gear than previously with few Valor Point options, while raiders will be able to gear up for raids without being forced into 1 or 2 activies as well.

They're trying to please both extremes of the spectrum, and it sounds like it could really succeed.

That’s your belief, and you’re entitled to it. Personally, I don’t think he gets it at all and is an arrogant, patronizing asswipe to boot. The data recently shared by Blizzard (some of which we knew already) simply doesn’t support the raid >>>>>>> everything mentality he has, yet we’re stuck with it. That said, I agree that this design stinks of his philosophy.

In my opinion, Cory Stockton is the guy Blizzard couldn’t stand to lose. He’s imaginative, approachable and seems to appreciate the playerbase and its desires far more than Hazzikostas or Street ever did.

I fail to see how he's "arrogant and patronizing" tbh, he comes across as very down-to-earth and direct. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the changes coming, ironically you're the one accusing me of seeing things only from my own perspective, when in reality I think you'Re the one who can'T see past the seemingly universal benefits of Valor Points (to you).

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I think this will have a knock on effect to queue times tbh. I suspect I am not alone but I have regularly queued for LFRs or Flex runs that I have already done that week just for some quick VP. Having overgeared people in lower LFRs certainly helps the run go more smoothly so is a benefit for all concerned I feel. Removing VP would mean I have no reason at all to do this. While I wont miss spending extra hours in LFRs/Flex where I have no gear to get the knock on effect is that there will be less people queuing.

You're disregarding two factors here though:

1) the fact that in this system, the probability that only people that actually NEED the content you're running with them have queued up is much higher - which should help reduce toxicity a bit, as opposed to people becoming hostile with each other over being annoyed and bored with having to grind content they don't want to do anymore just to cap

2) Itemization changes - with the RNG factor increased by a lot on gear, you will be able to get upgrades from the highest difficulty you are running possibly until the next tier releases. Unless you are insanely, almost impossibly, lucky.
There are 3 RNG factors we already know of:
- Tertiary roll
- Warforged roll
- Socket roll
Loot will be much more diverse, and one piece of raid loot won't always be the same as the next.

Now, we don't know how many of these factors will affect dungeon and LFR loot yet, but it is not unreasonable to assume that at least TWO (tertiary and socket rolls) will be on this type of gear, making your incentive to rerun content that much greater. You're not just trying to get every slot, you'll almost always possibly still get an upgrade for already higher slots you own.

[DeadmanWalking]

Valor was the carrot and stick, with no carrot why should I run content past my weekly lock out? The fact that I wanted to cap valor would get me to do extra dungeons that week, I'm working towards a goal. If I am running a dungeon or scenario to get vaor then YOU have a tank or a healer for your dungeon run. As it is I don't do LFR or Flex anymore because I am in half flex gear and half normal raid gear. I don't need anything in flex anymore. I don't need valor either because I don't have any new loot that needs upgrading anymore.

So what do I log in for? Friday night raid and thats it. I currently have everything I can get outside of raid night and I have no goal to work for. The stick has no carrot on it so the horse won't move. I'm playing other console games now because I am bored.

Not everyone hates grind, not everyone hates having a goal to work for. Its one of the reasons I play wow, there was always something I could work towards achieveing, now I just show up once a week.

[Pua]

Man, enough with the “you’re not realizing” or “you seem to have missed” nonsense.

It’s impressing nobody.

I realise exactly what you’re talking about, I know what the design intent is for the matters we’re discussing, and flatly disagree with some of your conclusions based on my earlier commentary. This isn’t because I don’t understand you, it’s because I have a different opinion. If you continue refusing to read what I’m actually typing and mindlessly assuming I’m only disputing these points because I don’t get it, I’ll simply stop responding. Your approach is arrogant, patronizing and tiresome. Funnily enough, it might be why you like Hazzikostas so much.

Let’s have another go, shall we?

You've misunderstood me here. I personally don't find 5 mans redundant without Valor points. You were making that claim. This is why I adressed this part of the subject with said wording. It is my belief that the new itemization system will dispel most if not all of your concerns.

Go back and read my original post again. I insinuated, very clearly, that five-man content has been almost entirely moved away from in this expansion because of the extreme devaluation of valor. Worrying that further devaluation of that currency might exasperate this problem is perfectly logical, and I’ve no idea why you can’t see this. You’re arguing that the new gearing/itemization paradigm will solve this, but we don’t know enough about it yet to make that assessment. Historically speaking, there have been such dramatic jumps in item level by tier, everything before it has been made redundant from a gearing perspective.

The part you are not getting is that it doesn’t have to be this way. It wasn’t in WotLK because you could still gear up via running old dungeons, with other incentives such as the weekly raid quest.

You don't seem to realize that Valor points haven't really been a thing since early 5.2. Upgrading gear is the only thing we use it for, and that can easily be handled through other mechanics, such as drop tokens to upgrade armor pieces and the like.

No, I realise just fine. What you don’t seem to realise is that I’m taking a more wholistic view of valor, something that should have been evident to you seeing as my last post discussed currency gearing in Wrath of the Lich King.

You're consistently not realizing that there are many more avenues to get gear of Valor level in WoD than now in MoP. Yes, Heroic dungeons will drop "equal or higher ilvl than LFR" (Hazzikostas) same goes for Challenge Mode daily rewards. Garrison follower quests will reward "epic items" (Blizzcon). In short, in 5.0 and 5.2 Valor gear was the ONLY avenue for non-raiders to gain upgrades, through rep gating and running the same content over and over. In 6.0, there will be many more avenues open for non-raiders to gain items without having to grind points, but instead by choosing the activity they prefer. Isn't this exactly what you want?

I’m consistently realizing everything you’re saying, thanks.

“Many more avenues to get gear of valor level” are going to exist? Do we know this? Well, no. No, we don’t. Would you mind citing the sources where Hazzikostas has implicitly stated the following:

Heroic dungeons will drop equal or higher item level than LFR.

All we know is that challenge modes will drop these items, and that comes under the daily quest. We don’t know how good the garrison items are going to be, we don’t know where scenarios are going to fit in, and we’ve absolutely no idea what’s going to happen after the first tier. Also, don’t forget, that valor wasn’t the only way to get upgrades in 5.0 and 5.2; not only were the usual BoE’s dropping in raids, professions were a steady source of said upgrades to the point where the unlocking of the Isle of Thunder allowed blacksmiths to develop old plans that became (IIRC) 502’s. You’re right, reputation gating and spamming LFR was the only way to get at the valor items from the Shado-pan Assault but for some inexplicable reason you’re assuming that I was perfectly okay with that.

I wasn’t.

Just as I wasn’t okay with the gating (and double-gating) of the launch content that was stacked behind reputation grinds as well.

Did you miss the point where you get LFR-level gear from Heroics, Challenge Modes AND Garrisons? You're going to be rewarded for actively playing the game more than ever in WoD.

No, I didn’t miss any of those points.

Can you cite me the sources where anyone states that heroics and garrisons give LFR level items? Because:

@hc dungeons, we do, Hazzikostas stated it himself. "at or above LFR level". Normal will gear you for LFR, Heroic will award equivalent gear and along with Challenge Modes will be the alternate route to gear up for raids (the intended one for raiders).

That’s not my recollection of what was said. Again, I’d appreciate the sources for this.

Naturally, with this system new content must be added as well as old content upgraded as tiers are released. They've already stated around Blizzcon that they intend to keep the 6.0 dungeon content relevant throughout the expansion as well as releasing more 5 man content.

We know nothing about how they intend to keep 6.0 dungeon content relevant, and we don’t know that they’re going to be releasing more dungeon content as the expansion goes on.

I’m sorry, but we know neither of those things.

You can choose to disbelieve that, but based on the itemization system 6.0 is shipping with, there's really no other choice. I don't think you need worry about them simply forgetting everyone but raiders as soon as 6.1, this hasn't been the case...ever.

You grinded LFR to gear up for raiding in 5.2, or you did tier 14 content. In short, you raided – there were no other catch up mechanics that were plentiful enough to get you geared. I think heroic scenarios came in as part of 5.3 and then the Timeless Isle came in as part of 5.4, but they arrived because Blizzard knew what a colossal mess they’d made by forcing people who didn’t want to raid to grind the ghetto in order to move their character on. You’re making a bold assumption (fair play to you) that they’ve learned from this.

I’m electing to wait and see.

Catch-up mechanics like in MoP will be abundant, as well as new group content. Also yet again, you state that "how will group content be levied against future raid content"? The only reason it would HAVE to be levied is if the gear is required/helps to gain access to the new raids. Otherwise, what do you need the higher gear for? To kill world quest mobs in 1.1 secs instead of 1.5 secs? I understand of course everyone wants some form of character advancement, but ilvl is simply chained to raid content progression, and nothing else. It's never been any other way. That isn't to say that there won't be a crap ton of alternate activities. As you rightly stated, pet battles are wildly popular, as Garrisons will be.

You’re showing your bias here.

“Kill quest mobs in 1.1 seconds”. What? You may not like this, but Blizzard views gear as a reward. So do many players. You’re viewing it as a means to an end, and that just isn’t its sole purpose anymore which means your argument here is doing this entire debate a complete disservice.

Buying an item simply feels that much more underwhelming than having it drop. It's simply less exciting, and this has been stated to be part of their philosophy for a long time now. They've never liked the currency shop system, but they couldn't find another satisfying way of keeping the majority happy with their character progression. In WoD the new avenues for gearing as well as the new itemization will change things radically.

Well, to you. I get this argument, I do, I’m just not sure I agree. My experience is that it causes more frustration than it does happiness, and it’s not a complaint you ever hear the PvP community make. Your mileage may vary.

You don't seem to realize that Valor points give you very little choice, while pretty much all forms of gameplay actually awarding possible upgrades for non-raiders will feel much more rewarding and motivating.
What would you rather have? Getting rid of your valor farm over a month or two to buy those 5 or 6 items for your spec until you can fold your hands and wait? Or possibly get upgrades from pretty much every aspect of the game open to you, from Garrisons to Heroics to Challenge Modes and probably Reputation rewards as well as Heroic Scenarios, all the while continually still having a chance of getting an upgrade (warforged, better tertiary, socket).

I realise what you’re saying just fine. Again.

Valor can give players a buttload of choice if they were implemented more intelligently. They’ve consistently been on the cusp of making it work, but never quite getting there because of confused design decisions and the “EVERYONE MUST RAID” mantra. We can only hope that’s going to go away. Alas, I think you’re grossly over-selling what the new system is going to do and I think that because of history. Blizzard wants people to do LFR and it wants people to raid, purely so that justification can be made to keep developing raid content that, actually, most players aren’t bothered about. Hazzikostas himself has stated that he’s been a raider since day one, but doesn’t seem to realise that not everyone is. At BlizzCon, he said that he’d heard the desire for more dungeons and then announced the smallest number to ever ship with an expansion. Brilliant.

Like I say, we don’t know how they’re going to set up what you’re talking about against the rest of the expansion. We’ve no idea. We’re hoping it’ll work as you imply, but we simply don’t know.

I think you're utterly mistaken, it's actually the opposite. Casuals and non-raiders will have more options than ever to gain more and more diverse gear than previously with few Valor Point options, while raiders will be able to gear up for raids without being forced into 1 or 2 activies as well.

No, I’m not mistaken. I’m 100% objectively correct. Read what you’ve quoted again. I said “currently” and not “in WoD”. Hopefully WoD will see some changes, but the bottom line is that I just don’t believe what Blizzard tells me anymore without evidence of it.

I fail to see how he's "arrogant and patronizing" tbh, he comes across as very down-to-earth and direct. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the changes coming, ironically you're the one accusing me of seeing things only from my own perspective, when in reality I think you'Re the one who can'T see past the seemingly universal benefits of Valor Points (to you).

Listen to him. Not only does he talk to interviewers like they’re children, he’s spent the last two BlizzCons he’s been a part of telling players that they don’t really feel what they feel, and that he (and the team) know better.

He’s a cock.

[Kalcheus]

Official-ish non-clarification

• Glommerwort @Glommerwort
  
  @WatcherDev I'm really confused, are VP and JP going away in Warlords? http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/blizzard-plan-strip-currency-systems-world-warcraft-raiding-warlords-draenor …
  

Watcher @WatcherDev
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@Glommerwort We'll have more info soon. We do want to streamline our currency system overall, though.

[shoooter]

I can believe their new system will make VP obsolete, but I have a really hard time believing JP will be removed so long as Honor Points still exist. Having to rework not only heirloom purchasing but the old BC and Wrath JP gear, Wrath rep tokens, Cata trade goods, as well as the ability to convert JP to Honor so PvE players can somehow buy older PvP gear for transmog... that seems like more effort than they'd be willing to put in. Highly likely JP will stay as is if not also being handed out via the new random world events as well.

[lunchbox2042]

How will I buy my tier 9-12 sets now?