What was the appeal of Vanilla dungeons?

[RyanEX]

As the topic says, what was it about vanilla dungeons that kept them in so fond memories?

And before you say nostalgia, I don't have the same feelings for TBC or WotLK and those were a really long time ago aswell, I won't even mention Cata.
Is it that they each kinda had a soul of their own? They were long, majestic, filled with characters.

Take Blackrock Depths as an example, that place was huge. Or Maraudon, my person favourite for the most beautiful dungeon of all time. Or maybe Sunken Temple. To this day I'm not 100% sure I ever completely explored it. I won't even mention the horrors of Stratholme or Scholomance.

Why can't we have nice things like these anymore. Everything lacks that mystery factor that kept me going for so long, and no, it's not the websites, etc.
I never check the dungeons on new expansions i visit for the first time on website, I always allow myself to be surprised. But it's just not working, and hasn't since a long time.

Dungeons back then were huge and FELT like dungeons. Hell, they were bigger than some raids. Instead of a straight point A to point B, all had multiple paths and numerous bosses and trash that could be skipped by simply taking an alternate pathway.

Of course there was bad as well. This mean't that you had to have the time to do them if you intended to clear. And wipes mean't VERY long runs since, unlike now, the game didn't save spots so you would rez inside the instance close to where you wiped. You had to make the entire run, which in instances like BrD, was a torment.

[Durandro]

Honestly? Its mostly nostalgia. There was nothing else before it, hense its remembered moreso then later dungeons.

Doesn't mean they are bad necessarily (though some of them are). Some might even be able to be released now and be deemed good (with improved textures and boss mechanics). But some really don't work so well in modern WoW - Blackrock Depths really does need a little redesign right now, for example (mostly in restructuring its wings so it works for LFG).

[Yig]

Living the adventures you'd only read about in the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings, sharing the wonder with others of the Legend of Zelda, the places you imagined finding and exploring while playing Dungons and Dragons or Heroquest or Warhammer Quest, the iconic experience of a group of adventurers, crusaders on a quest, treasure hunters and tomb robbers, finding a nondescript hole in the ground or an epic ancient gateway carved into the earth. This was all in video games before, but not with the style and cinematic grandeur of Blizzard's art style and it's music and epic scale.

And then below a vast world of tunnels, underground cities, ancient tombs filled with the spirits of the restless dead, the slumbering armies of the horrors of the world, the putrid holes and nests of monsters and demons.

Adventure, exploration, sometimes needing a map in your hands to remember where you were and where you had to go. It was a shame WOW didn't make use of Zelda's map mechanics more.

They were more than a packaged glorified hallway simulating the experience of actually discovering beneath a mountain laid miles of ancient city. Black rock Depths, wow. What can i say. There was nothing else like that. Even frustrating and being lost, you felt like you were in another world, but depending on the people you were with it could be a nightmare of selfish bickering and ego that could easily devour 8 hours of your Saturday, or a wonderfully fun time making new friends you kept for years.

[Darkhallows]

As someone who played Vanilla all the way through, and has gone back recently and played it, honestly it had to do with the challenge, and how epic some of them felt.

It's one of the benefits I do give Vanilla, because in general it was a massive grindfest at points, where some classes had absolutely fucking stupid built in mechanics (Looking at you, Hunters and Paladins.)

It's true that they were sometimes WAY too time consuming, and I never killed Dagran Thaurissan back in the day, only getting far enough in BRD to get MC attuned. But holy shit, BRD took an entire day. The dungeons, with exceptions like Wailing Caverns and fucking Mauradon were generally fun, but they had setbacks, especially if someone left.

It's certainly much more user friendly these days, but I can see why people prefer Classic/BC dungeons.

[Chireru93]

Every dungeon was an adventure of its own, and unlike modern LFD dungeons everyone in the group wanted to be there; they had specifically chosen to run this dungeon and were commtted to it.

Modern dungeons really have more in common with scenarios than true vanilla dungeons. The LFD system and quick run mentality makes them feel pretty hollow, the only goal for most people being quick xp and points.

I think you just hit the nail on the head. I started in wotlk, but it was a few months before dungeon finder, so I still had to find groups for those old dungeons (I cannot for the life of me figure out why I thought it was a good idea to dungeon grind to level at that point...), and I met a lot of buddies through that. I like LFD because of the ease of it, but if I could gear up through raids through a different method, not LFR either, but maybe a mix of timeless isle-like stuff and some dungeons and crafted gear, then I wouldn't care to have LFD. LFD is a requirement only because dungeons are an essential part of gearing up, it was very bad when you needed to find groups for that daily token grind, however if they were a choice thing (like how challenge modes are) it would be awesome to see a huge sprawling metropolis rich with lore and mystery. As much as I hate blackrock depths while levelling, on my 90 toons (mostly my druid, due to having spent so much dang time in there levelling way back when) I'll run around the dungeon and just explore. After all, it is a giant dwarven city!

[thedinosaur]

dungeons in vanilla took more effort to get a group for than a 10 man raid now days. If you didn't know your class it was pretty much always a wipe.

the epic size was one part, getting a group together and travelling to the dungeon really made it like a story. The loot was always great because epics were epic and for the majority unobtainable (plus once you were raiding you had 40 others also hoping for a drop!)
At the same time, i hated running uldaman and brd. especially brd - finding torches was the pits.

yes its nostalgic, but i miss seeing in trade LFM Mara princess runs, DM tributes and UBRS (need someone with key). people needed each other to progress together.

I see vanilla as kind of a third world country vs wow today. What we see now as meaningless or worthless was invaluable and highly regarded during the vanilla period.

[Normie]

unlike modern LFD dungeons everyone in the group wanted to be there

that's quite an assumption

[RyanEX]

that's quite an assumption

Not really, remember there was no LFR back then. You had to either have friends, a guild, or spam IF/Org for people looking for said instances. So if you were there, you were there because you chose to be, not because the random tossed you in.

[Blufossa]

The only thing I remember about BRD is how fucking awful it was

Walking around for 4 hours killing respawning trash and minibosses that nobody ever even needs is not fun

If you did this, then your group was not meant to be in BRD.

I did a full BRD run back near the end of Vanilla. Took us 9 hours to do it. It was SO worth it.

[Constraint]

As the topic says, what was it about vanilla dungeons that kept them in so fond memories?

And before you say nostalgia, I don't have the same feelings for TBC or WotLK and those were a really long time ago aswell, I won't even mention Cata.
Is it that they each kinda had a soul of their own? They were long, majestic, filled with characters.

Take Blackrock Depths as an example, that place was huge. Or Maraudon, my person favourite for the most beautiful dungeon of all time. Or maybe Sunken Temple. To this day I'm not 100% sure I ever completely explored it. I won't even mention the horrors of Stratholme or Scholomance.

Why can't we have nice things like these anymore. Everything lacks that mystery factor that kept me going for so long, and no, it's not the websites, etc.
I never check the dungeons on new expansions i visit for the first time on website, I always allow myself to be surprised. But it's just not working, and hasn't since a long time.

Maraudon and Sunken Temple were my favorites too. They were long, sprawling, VERY easy to get lost in, a long time investment for (at the time) a decent reward.

The thing is, times have changed. Remember back in Vanilla? Dungeon blues were an AMAZING help for levelling. They made a MASSIVE difference. It still wasn't necessarily worthwhile from a time spent perspective, but it did make levelling for the next few levels a lot easier if you put in the time to find a group/go with friends and get some dungeon quests done.

Nowadays, there's zero motivation. I often do RAF, and I've often reached 60+ on a tanking class with grey cloth bracers from level 2, without even realizing it. It just doesn't matter, especially with heirlooms. Even without heirlooms, there simply isn't a challenge in questing to even pretend to require superior quality gear from dungeons.

In regards to length - I understand why they went away from that path. I LOVED BRD, LBRS, and the rest of the longer dungeons. But let's be honest - if you're playing an hour a night, you couldn't do them. End of story. And that does suck for many people.

What I think they should do is this: Adventure Mode and Regular Mode. I think other games might have done this in the past, but I'm not sure. Regular mode is what we have now - say you enter BRD, you're put on rails, you clear the few bosses you need to, then you're done. Bite-sided content.

Adventure mode, however, is the entire dungeon area, free from constraints. This could even extend to multiple wings being combined. E.g remember Scarlet Monastery? Individually, they were quite regular-sized instances, with Graveyard obviously being a lot smaller. In Regular mode, those 4 instances would have stayed the way they were. In Adventure mode, they'd all be combined into one large, sprawling dungeon, with a unique reward or chance at such at the end, if you kill all the bosses, for example.

This would have minimal effects on development time - say they create 4 dungeons, in the Auchindoun style - that's 4 separate, unique dungeons for casuals, and 1 massive adventure for players looking for a more in-depth, long-lasting experience. Even Maraudon, which was, admittedly, horribly confusing for new/casual players, could be done this way. It's already been started - it's already divided into 3 clear dungeons in LFD - Waters, Orange and Purple, or whatever they're called now. In Adventure mode, they'd all be combined into one, and if you had the tenacity/dedication to explore the entire, huge sprawling dungeon, you'd receive a potentially interesting reward.

They could even increase the difficulty of Adventure mode as opposed to Regular mode. So Regular mode could be a tool to get into Normal (today's Flex raids), whereas the harder, longer Adventure modes could be used as a tool for people who either want challenging 5-man content to be their endgame (quite a few people, actually), or for people who don't want to gear up in easier raids, thus spoiling the content for themselves when they attempt it on harder difficulties. They could gear up in Adventure mode and then not require gear from Normal modes, and could skip straight to Heroic (today's Normal) raids.

Just my 5 cents, anyway.

[blackblade]

As the topic says, what was it about vanilla dungeons that kept them in so fond memories?

And before you say nostalgia, I don't have the same feelings for TBC or WotLK and those were a really long time ago aswell, I won't even mention Cata.
Is it that they each kinda had a soul of their own? They were long, majestic, filled with characters.

Take Blackrock Depths as an example, that place was huge. Or Maraudon, my person favourite for the most beautiful dungeon of all time. Or maybe Sunken Temple. To this day I'm not 100% sure I ever completely explored it. I won't even mention the horrors of Stratholme or Scholomance.

Why can't we have nice things like these anymore. Everything lacks that mystery factor that kept me going for so long, and no, it's not the websites, etc.
I never check the dungeons on new expansions i visit for the first time on website, I always allow myself to be surprised. But it's just not working, and hasn't since a long time.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Dire_Maul_tribute_run

[Griffter]

The answer is indeed nostalgia, but not just because it happened a long time ago. I think everyone has especially fond memories of the first dungeons and raids that they really got into. For me, that's the last tier of Wrath. For people who've been playing since the beginning, it's the vanilla content. They just remember the excitement of going in there with their buddies and figuring everything out for the first time, and compare that to the cold, procedural feeling of Dungeon Finder groups today.

[LookingGlass]

The appeal is that they were essentially 5-man raids. It'd take you and 4 of your friends a couple hours or more to clear some of the biggest dungeons. You had to use CC, you got worthwhile loot out of it and some of them were an actual challenge.

The biggest thing about vanilla was how unknown everything was for most people. In the beginning there weren't all these DPS simulation sites and pro class guides. There was Thottbot.com and maybe a couple elite-guild forums.

It was simply you, playing a class that was interesting and picking whatever talents you liked, then trying to make that work. And for the most part it did unless you simply avoided obviously good talents.

Now you join a raid and people are like "lolwut. that talent is stupid cuz google. you suck noob". It was just chill, fun and mysterious, and so were the dungeons.

[lolzsec]

I've never heard anything good about vanilla dungeons other than nostalgic memories, it was new and fresh, a lot of stories and memories for people, but in terms of content/design/loot/bosses/mechanics, the actual gameplay, never seen people say anything specifically good.

Seriously, never.

well apparently you cant read because many people are stating the exact opposite in this thread. people like yourself that say "never have i heard", only relates to your ignorance. just because YOU never heard of something doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

[Deleted]

*edit: misread (didn't read) stuff mattered in vanilla, having a tank that knew the roped was of gold value, having dps that knew they had to wait for the agro were golden too, healers..., well i don't know about those but i would have died if they weren't around.

[Thread Winner]

To put it simply, it was a different kind of fun. Dungeons were basically smaller-scale raids in terms of logistics, but they were differentiated by the intimacy of the experience.

[wowaccounttom]

currently playing in a vanilla server...and yes,, some are not dungeon related

good things
- challenging, must use everything.. healers need to heal smartly and down rank spells
- cc cc cc cc ....
- you really find out here who is scrub, who has potential
- damage/healing numbers imo were sooooo balanced
- the "limited" amount of people with access to certain recipes/enchants... promots trading between raiding guilds
- not a lot of bs "avoidable one shot mechanics"... you take damage both as healer and dps and you enjoy it... and your healer deals with it.


bad things
- some think mana "management" is bad, they just want an almost infinite blue bar
- some might not enjoy running back
- having a bad person in the group could mean wipes left and right.. on live, even the healer can just /follow a geared dk tank and clear it... no such thing in vanilla
- rebuffing is annoying
- bad cc, like a fear near a strong pack WILL get you killed unless the group is very geared...
- drinking every other pull or so

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Dungeons now = You queue up, play for 20-30min with people you don't know, getting loot you'll replace in a week or two, while you hardly communicate and it all turns into a zerg.
Dungeons in Vanilla (and tbc) = You try to find friends or randoms to play with for a couple hours (if you wanted a full clear/do it properly), you'd get loot you wouldn't replace for a month or two while you also had a chance to find rare mats and recipes for strong craftables, you'd communicate a lot and making sure things went smoothly because things would wipe you fast as hell. Not to forget that dungeons now days have 3-5 bosses when some dungeon back then had like 8 bosses with several mini-bosses that would drop said recipes and rare mats, in general dungeons back then was something you had to invest time in which tbh is what it all was back then. Invest time = get rewards, in todays casual friendly wow that wouldn't work so they got rid of it. Imagine if you had BRD today, people would just quit as soon as they got the queue for it.

[Ragashii]

The appeal was that it was the majority of the playerbases endgame. Most people did not raid in vanilla or even have a chance to. The main appeal came from the fact that your gear sucked and the only hope you had at gearing was largely though dungeons.

[Lochton]

They are very entertaining..

Wailing Caverns, 1 DPS group member gets lost in the maze (the part that is now cut away). Such funny moments, people trying to remember it.
Sunken Temple, loved the size of it, wasn't too big (Like BRD) or too small (Like RFC). Plus, the hole in the floor at the Dragonkin.. Priceless.. "Watch me guys, I'll make this smo...-" *drops to his death below*
Blackrock Depth, horrible in it's length, you always had to change 1-3 group members, but the feeling of fighting through it all, felt good.