[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

For what the intention with Seraphim is I think it's pretty nice looking, by no means "done" but it has potential. The seal switching talent needs a longer buff duration or seals needs to trigger a shorter GCD for it to be entertaining enough to maintain them, Final Verdict has no gameplay value whatsoever but I think that's the point.
I really hope the take a look at Holy Prism - Light's Hammer - Execution Sentence talent tier as well, in MoP the only real choice for us was ES but now because of snapshotting being removed it's just as "bad" as Inquisition was and they removed that... (Yes I'm still butthurt about Inq being removed T_T)

[anaxie]

I'm a paladin yes it's true
Don't nerf me and I'll buff you
Cooldowns up time for burst
Beta time is the worst
Should we go live with a little balance
It will only happen if they redo the talents
Nerf our utility to lend us a hand
Decade of songs with beta band

YUP

[Rathimis]

Putting it simply - 20s is enough time to get all four Seals up and running. How many Seals being up do you balance around being up? Players don't like using Inq every 30s...and Blizzard wants to use the same system except every 6s?

Pretty much this, the whole thing makes absolutely no sense. I just don't get it. Where's that inside info, Anaxie?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The complaint about Inq was that it was a single button you hit once a minute without much thinking/interaction about it, changing seals to get a buff at the very least has some "skill" to it. Maintenance buffs/debuffs isn't bad... just have to make them somewhat interesting, I do find it interesting that 1min Inq is a problem but 1min ES isn't. They're identical in terms of how you use them in WoD.

[Vash The Stampede]

The complaint about Inq was that it was a single button you hit once a minute without much thinking/interaction about it, changing seals to get a buff at the very least has some "skill" to it. Maintenance buffs/debuffs isn't bad... just have to make them somewhat interesting, I do find it interesting that 1min Inq is a problem but 1min ES isn't. They're identical in terms of how you use them in WoD.

A lot of people here overlook the fact that Inquisition relied on the UI to display how long the buff is. And Blizzards default UI sucks for monitoring buffs and debuffs. What player here doesn't use something like weak auras to track Inquisition? The default for buffs is either underneath your character icon, or top right corner of your screen. Both are totally far away from your character, in the center of the screen. This is why a lot of dps ends up either standing in fire and killing themselves, or doing terrible dps cause they aren't keeping good track of the buffs and debuffs.

Execution Sentence is an icon that you can put anywhere on your tool bars, and can easily see when the cool down is ready. Much less of a problem then Inquisition. Blizzards UI designers are probably the same people who made Windows 8's modern UI.

I'm just dumbfounded by some things I read. Veins literally pop from my forehead reading certain things.

If a game is doing this to you, then it's probably a good idea to reflect and what matters in your life. Just remember, it's a game. A very expensive and time demanding game. One with a community that is has a infamous reputation, that would make Scientology look sane.

It's very easy to get upset about a game like WoW, where you've invested so much time and effort.

[Fredzilla]

A lot of people here overlook the fact that Inquisition relied on the UI to display how long the buff is. And Blizzards default UI sucks for monitoring buffs and debuffs. What player here doesn't use something like weak auras to track Inquisition? The default for buffs is either underneath your character icon, or top right corner of your screen. Both are totally far away from your character, in the center of the screen. This is why a lot of dps ends up either standing in fire and killing themselves, or doing terrible dps cause they aren't keeping good track of the buffs and debuffs.

Execution Sentence is an icon that you can put anywhere on your tool bars, and can easily see when the cool down is ready. Much less of a problem then Inquisition. Blizzards UI designers are probably the same people who made Windows 8's modern UI.

I don't use any addons except for dbm and recount and I have 0 problems keeping track of inquisition while dps'ing and not standing in things. It's hardly a huge feat to glance up at a different part of your screen for a split second. And for using ES, i'd have to glance up to that part of my screen anyway for my trinket procs and whatnot for when to use it. Neither is really any amount of a problem. And I'm pretty sure bear's point was that once you use either of them, you don't give them a second thought at all til they come off CD/duration runs out.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

WoWs standard UI is shit for many things, tracking buffs, holy power, certain cds and such.
We don't get any indication that our 4set (SoO) has triggered (or 2 set for that matter, or any previous tier bonuses) yet people say our current 4set is good. Then you have Art of War procs that are shown but nobody cares about, if blizzard added a aura to show the duration/remaining duration of Inq it still would've been just as "boring" to use. Inquisition has the problem that it's a hit once a minute and forget, same as ES will be in WoD. Reason why I'm saying that is (I'm still obv butthurt about inq) that if 1 changed/removed the other should be as well, bad standard UI or not the way we use them is the same: hit once a minute and forget.

[Jackielope]

I'd probably argue that ES timing is more important than Inq's since ES isn't meant to be up all the time. The reason being is timing ES to hit along with boosted damage can be quite a large gain instead of using it when you don't have your best potential. And it's not just making sure the last hit happens when you have AW or such up, there's also fight mechanics to think about. Got a boss who has a 10 second window of +100% damage done to it? You'd better pop ES just before that window so the biggest hit happens during that time instead of maybe not when you want it.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Well yes sure, but if you delay too long/too many times you'll miss potential uses of ES, for it to be worth delaying you need to have quite a dramatic increase in potential damage which is rare to happen.

[anaxie]

If a game is doing this to you, then it's probably a good idea to reflect and what matters in your life. Just remember, it's a game. A very expensive and time demanding game. One with a community that is has a infamous reputation, that would make Scientology look sane.

It's very easy to get upset about a game like WoW, where you've invested so much time and effort.

I don't need a lecture about my hobbies nukem. Keep that and any comments to yourself.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Someone has their Avenging Wrath Macro on.

[anaxie]

I'd probably argue that ES timing is more important than Inq's since ES isn't meant to be up all the time. The reason being is timing ES to hit along with boosted damage can be quite a large gain instead of using it when you don't have your best potential. And it's not just making sure the last hit happens when you have AW or such up, there's also fight mechanics to think about. Got a boss who has a 10 second window of +100% damage done to it? You'd better pop ES just before that window so the biggest hit happens during that time instead of maybe not when you want it.

ES is NOT more important then inqu.

[trystero]

A lot of people here overlook the fact that Inquisition relied on the UI to display how long the buff is. And Blizzards default UI sucks for monitoring buffs and debuffs. What player here doesn't use something like weak auras to track Inquisition? The default for buffs is either underneath your character icon, or top right corner of your screen. Both are totally far away from your character, in the center of the screen. This is why a lot of dps ends up either standing in fire and killing themselves, or doing terrible dps cause they aren't keeping good track of the buffs and debuffs.

Everyone has overlooked that fact because it's not worth mentioning. We all know that the default UI is atrocious, and it's a player's responsibility to correct it. That is not Inquisition's defect; by that logic, almost every ability is problematic because it is cannot be easily managed through the default UI. Everything from resource management (Holy Power, even mana) to boss-applied debuffs would be an issue...

[Talen]

For what the intention with Seraphim is I think it's pretty nice looking, by no means "done" but it has potential

Seraphim currently requires you to generate 5 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 10s every 30s.
Inq previously required you to generate 3 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 30s every 30s.

If they keep it as is, it's essentially Inq. If they increase the CD, they've simply removed one CD and replaced it with another.

The seal switching talent needs a longer buff duration or seals needs to trigger a shorter GCD for it to be entertaining enough to maintain them

Maintaining the Seals was never entertaining for most. Its hard to see it suddenly becoming popular. It was a mark of skill and it was used because it did increase DPS. But I don't recall anyone ever accusing it of being fun.

As it is, each Seal gains a 20s effect. Which is enough time to have all four Seal up and active for Ret. Which requires extra free GCDs to use which tells me the rotation is going to stink. Lets assume they adjust the GCD - do they balance DPS and survivability around having all 4 Seals up and active? Or just three? Is a cast sequence macro going to be possible? Or a CLCRet solution? And how is it going to get around the problems where if the DPS gain is enough to make it worth using, its going to be seen as mandatory to many - but if the DPS gain is simply equal, its not going to be worth the aggravation?

In short....there is nothing as yet to even hint that Blizzard has addressed the problems Seal Twisting brought with it.

Final Verdict has no gameplay value whatsoever but I think that's the point.

It's boring and pedestrian, and adds nothing to the class except damage. I can't really get excited about any of them. Add to those the hugely boring and largely unnecessary perks and there isn 't much to be excited about.

Blizzard said it wants to add new stuff but needs to make room. The L100 talents should be where a lot of that new stuff should go. And if it wants to bring in simple gameplay options, to address style of play, then it could at least make them more exciting instead of pushing concepts which have never truly worked in the past.

EJL

[Fredzilla]

Seraphim currently requires you to generate 5 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 10s every 30s.
Inq previously required you to generate 3 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 30s every 30s.

If they keep it as is, it's essentially Inq. If they increase the CD, they've simply removed one CD and replaced it with another.

I don't know what inq you've been using if you think seraphim is the same thing as it.

Also, the default UI is no harder to use than any other UI, you just have to look at different parts of your screen. Maybe I don't have problems with it because I only have a silly laptop with a silly 15.some inch screen, but if you spend seconds at a time looking for your inq buff or 4pc proc, you have other problems. I literally have 0 problems with the default UI. It's no harder to get used to using than any other UI. I know exactly where everything that I need to look for appears, and ascertain the relevant info in a very brief glance, during which the only way I'd die is if the tank died and the boss smacked me in the face.

The only time I've ever had any trouble keeping track of anything was, for the most recent example, when I had to coordinate the tanks switching bosses on stone guards back in MSV, and only because I had to pay more attention to calling out overloads and swaps and when you could break chains blahblahblah than my own personal playing, since the raid living is a little more important in that situation than me making sure I don't go a few seconds without inq up. Which is a whole other beast entirely that has nothing to do with the default UI itself.

[Elovan]

As it is, each Seal gains a 20s effect. Which is enough time to have all four Seal up and active for Ret. Which requires extra free GCDs to use which tells me the rotation is going to stink. Lets assume they adjust the GCD - do they balance DPS and survivability around having all 4 Seals up and active? Or just three? Is a cast sequence macro going to be possible? Or a CLCRet solution? And how is it going to get around the problems where if the DPS gain is enough to make it worth using, its going to be seen as mandatory to many - but if the DPS gain is simply equal, its not going to be worth the aggravation?

I'm pretty sure we're not going to be expected to keep all four buffs up. The only two useful to Ret in a dps sense are JoT and JoR. I only see JoJ being useful in a pvp situation (it's too annoying and small of a benefit to regularly keep up in pve) and JoI in emergencies. Since we'll want to be in Seal of Truth most of the time anyways, that's 2 gcd's every 20 seconds to keep JoR up, hardly breaking the entire rotation. Also, Blizzard has to balance our survivability toolkit outside of talents unless the entire row is dedicated to survivability. Since this tier isn't survivability based, it won't detract from our defensive abilities.

As long as Emp Seals and Seraphim are balanced such that if used correctly (not necessarily perfectly) you can pull about 3% more dps, it's fine, that's a small enough margin that you can take the talent you like and do more dps than trying to play with a talent you hate.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Seraphim currently requires you to generate 5 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 10s every 30s.
Inq previously required you to generate 3 HP in order to gain a damage increase buff for 30s every 30s.

If they keep it as is, it's essentially Inq. If they increase the CD, they've simply removed one CD and replaced it with another.
EJL

No that's not it at all...
The intent of Seraphim is to "buff" your CDs (or any other abilities you might want) so that they come back off cd faster, the initial stat buffs and such are nice, yes. That however isn't why you'd pick Seraphim as a talent.
Let me give you a simple example.
AW 2min cd. 5m fight, that means 3 uses of AW for the fight.
With Seraphim same fight.
AW 1min 15sec CD, that means (15sec to build 5 holy power at pull) you get 4 AW uses.

Imagine getting to 5 holy power (current cost) pop Seraphim -> Instantly pop Zealotry and AW for the initial burst AND the shorter cd on Zealotry + AW. Think outside the box :P

That's the intention, ofc it depends on how much readiness rating you have and so on. It also reduces cd on other abilities but we don't know exactly what yet so potentially you could use it for shorter CD bubbles if there's a fight where immunities are strong and loads of things, Seraphim is a really good/fun/entertaining talent with lots of potential for all 3 paladin specs. They just need to make it balanced, the 5 holy power will be reduced/removed I think but we'll see.

[Vash The Stampede]

Everyone has overlooked that fact because it's not worth mentioning. We all know that the default UI is atrocious, and it's a player's responsibility to correct it.

I'm used to it with WoW, but I would hate to see the reaction of a new player that they need addons. Bad enough most people can barely use their computer, but now you gotta teach them about addons?

Is it a wonder why clcret was so popular for many players?

That is not Inquisition's defect; by that logic, almost every ability is problematic because it is cannot be easily managed through the default UI. Everything from resource management (Holy Power, even mana) to boss-applied debuffs would be an issue...

It wasn't Inquisitions only problem, but it's probably why so many people wanted to see it gone. Even Mages have a problem with Nether Tempest, as it requires your attention of a debuff. But in general, the WoW UI is terrible.

[Fredzilla]

Any UI being great or terrible is a subjective opinion. Don't go around touting it as fact. Just because it doesn't work out for you, doesn't mean it can't for others, and vice versa.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I don't alter the UI. It's basic and while iconic of sorts left for rooms for addons.