[WoD] Retribution Paladin Megathread

[MBDTF]

Ret utility is pretty strong in its current place, with the loss of Devo I'd say it's still pretty decent utility that we bring. Granted that Salv is useless, BoP and Sac even Purity have been game changers for a lot of fights since ToT.

Also by what these tweets are saying is that there is a lot more in store for Ret than what is currently put out.

[Reghame]

The only problem i see with this utility must use with ret is that their damage is either going to be pure trash, or will be equal with others despite the use of non-dps GCDs.

AKA a ret paladin using 0 utility will do WAY more damage than any other counter part which will be the mostly used one cause dps is actually what matters in the end. (less boss uptime = less damage intake = less need for said utility)

now if they KEPT SEAL OF FAITH, AN INTERESTING MODE FOR RET sort of like glad stance for prot wars, the spec could have 2 uses, a half dps half healer utility user, and a dps. but they decided to put in seraphim, or shit coolie which is clunky and has no place as to them wanting to lower cool down reliance and causes even more problems for us in both PVE and pvp if we opt into it.

TLDR: if you want ret to use utility, make it cut their damage, but make it MEANINGFUL AND GOOD! and if we dont want to or at least not all the time, let us do good dps.

As of now, with their current design, we have shitter raid utility, highly situation single utility, and by doing so, will MOST LIKELY make our damage shit if used, whilst being almost negligible. they either need to give back devo at this point or just make us OP for the entire expansion

[Aeluron Lightsong]

To clarify I'm going to prioritize Haste and Mastery first always. I just think Mulistrike IMO sounds interesting to me.

[Deleted]

This might be a totally stupid idea for a change and addition to ret in WoD. I also wrote this to celestalon on twitter. This is just an idea/suggestion so here goes.

Remove Exorcism and add consecration instead. Art of War will be changed to this: 25-30% chance to reset consecration and not trigger a global cooldown. In addition to this effect, consecration will now Exorcism on the current target and give a charge of holy power, you can have up to 2 consecrations active at a time. I think 2 ranged abilities should be enough for a melee dps class and I feel consecration is a more iconic ability for the paladin and would also help out with the lack of cleave dmg retribution has.

Consecration would not give holy power outside Art of War but increased the proc rate instead.
The second thing is the issue with crit. Nothing happens more than just more damage. This may not the be most interesting idea but why not add the vengeance proc again or even the righteous vengeance talent?

Vengeance: When you crit you gain 3% increased dmg, stacks up to 3 times.
Righteous Vengeance: Your crusader strike,templar's verdict?, and judgement crits causes the target to take an additional 30% damage as holy dmg over 6 sec. Can't remember the exact duration.

Could this be a good idea for the retribution class?

[MBDTF]

This might a totally stupid idea for a change and addition to ret in WoD. I also wrote this to celestalon on twitter. This is just an idea/suggestion so here goes.

Remove Exorcism and add consecration instead. Art of War will be changed to this: 25-30% chance to reset consecration and not trigger a global cooldown. In addition to this effect, consecration will now Exorcism on the current target and give a charge of holy power, you can have up to 2 consecrations active at a time. I think 2 ranged abilities should be enough for a melee dps class and I feel consecration is a more iconic ability for the paladin and would also help out with the lack of cleave dmg retribution has.

Consecration would not give holy power outside Art of War but increased the proc rate instead.
The second thing is the issue with crit. Nothing happens more than just more damage. This may not the be most interesting idea but why not add the vengeance proc again or even the righteous vengeance talent?

Vengeance: When you crit you gain 3% increased dmg, stacks up to 3 times.
Righteous Vengeance: Your crusader strike,templar's verdict?, and judgement crits causes the target to take an additional 30% damage as holy dmg over 6 sec. Can't remember the exact duration.

Could this be a good idea for the retribution class?

Personally I don't want to have any association with Consecration the idea that it wouldn't generate HP outside art of war which would proc exorcism(lol?) would make it a filler ability that we would have to keep up just for damage for no reason. Boosting up a proc chance would be kind of useless don't you think? AoW already has a high enough proc rate in itself, making it any higher would just beg to be pushed over to the point where it is a passive.

As far as melee come, Ret itself actually has a good enough ranged builds you can do, If you're willing to go all out you can have a Druid symb you (RIP Symbiosis), glyph into harsh words and word of glory and just go to town doing about 60-70% of normal DPS, which as a Melee class is more than fair.

There is no reason to make crit worth more than what it currently is, just "more damage" and saying it as if its boring benefit, if you look at the rest of our secondaries, hell even our primaries, they are just more damage.

I like the idea of judgement leaving a dot on the target, not so much for CS because with it's relatively short CD (same argument could be made about judgement also), you'd be overlapping it all over the place, and as for procing off TV, I'm not sure why, but I don't like it.

[Fredzilla]

Your arguments that things that add more damage are boring are 100% pointless since we are a damage dealing spec. Every piece of our gear should increase our damage. Having consecration back would be lovely so we'd actually have some aoe that doesn't require a target or HP to use, and your saying it being a filler you "keep up just for damage for no reason" is completely illogical, since that's what every ability in our rotation does. You press them when they're off cd for more damage, just the same as every other class and spec in the game.

AoW is a crap proc right now since exo is crap and it proccing has 0 effect on our rotation. Crit has no interplay with us as a spec as it does for, say, balance druids or warriors (which I assume is the point zeranox was making). And of course haste and mastery and strength are "just more damage" in the end, there'd be no point to them otherwise. (Again I'm assuming) but his point was that haste, at least, actually affects how we play by reducing our CDs/GCDs. Also, last I checked, CS/Judge/Exo already leave a dot on your target if you aren't aoe'ing half a dozen mobs and/or aren't bad, so you must not like SoT/censure either.

Also harsh words blows giant donkey parts, no one uses it ever. Or no one should, at least.

[MBDTF]

Your arguments that things that add more damage are boring are 100% pointless since we are a damage dealing spec. Every piece of our gear should increase our damage. Having consecration back would be lovely so we'd actually have some aoe that doesn't require a target or HP to use, and your saying it being a filler you "keep up just for damage for no reason" is completely illogical, since that's what every ability in our rotation does. You press them when they're off cd for more damage, just the same as every other class and spec in the game.

AoW is a crap proc right now since exo is crap and it proccing has 0 effect on our rotation. Crit has no interplay with us as a spec as it does for, say, balance druids or warriors (which I assume is the point zeranox was making). And of course haste and mastery and strength are "just more damage" in the end, there'd be no point to them otherwise. (Again I'm assuming) but his point was that haste, at least, actually affects how we play by reducing our CDs/GCDs. Also, last I checked, CS/Judge/Exo already leave a dot on your target if you aren't aoe'ing half a dozen mobs and/or aren't bad, so you must not like SoT/censure either.

Also harsh words blows giant donkey parts, no one uses it ever. Or no one should, at least.

Valid points, I still feel meh the idea of consecration just flat out replacing exorcism from a single target perspective.

Also I never said I didn't like Censure or SoT, but I totally missed the part about "crits" that Zeranox mentioned

also also, I agree Harsh Words absolutely sucks shit, but in the point I was trying to make was, is that we could have a ranged build if we wanted to as a Melee class, it would just suck horribly.

[Tauren]

blizzard likes how ret is right now i disagree i played a trial and it was pretty lame

[Maegor]

Exo doesn't apply censure, so no dot

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Expect responses tomorrow not tonight.

[UnderworldSoup]

I'll expect an answer after they roll into the next meeting of "How much shit can we put in the game and get away with before players notice and start complaining"

Or make a nonsensical response that counters any previous statements about similar issues. I can't wait to see them defend most of the perks as being "interesting" when they had changed the talent system going into Mists due to a very similar issue with the passive bonuses going largely unnoticed by the player.

[Reghame]

Fishing twitter for perks and art of war/exo updates. Will post if I get something interesting.

Atleast Celestalon confirmed Flash of Light is a defensive perk <<<.<<<

if they want flash of light to be a big thing it better damn well heal me for like 50% of my health. Considering im opening myself up to interupts, not doing damage, and can only cast it 3 times before being OOM forever in PVP, not to mention the large dps loss for PVE.

lets not forget the shit feast that was mop ret healing as well, when they said the same thing and im pretty damn sure even if we could use LoH in PVP we still had the LOWEST healing/absorbs out of every class, even while being a hybrid.

And if they want our selfless healer talent and flashes to be raid "utility" as they put it, then it absolutly better top someone off for my time spent not doing what im suppose to do as a dps, else itl be one of those things still not worth the mass dps loss to use it more than once or twice a fight.

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I'll expect an answer after they roll into the next meeting of "How much shit can we put in the game and get away with before players notice and start complaining"

they could very well put in our old mastery from cata for all we know, they tend to do stuff like that instead of giving us things we want despite numerous posts, blogs, and tweets. First time i have seen them ACTUALLY listen to us in the 10 or so years ive been ret was that SoR CS/HotR change being reverted, and i almost shit my pants at the fact they removed it.

[GreatOak]

So I haven't played a Paladin in a couple of years. What's Ret looking like in WOD?

I am trying to find another class to play in WOD aside from my Druid and Rogue and I'm so bored that I'm open for suggestions. I have a 90 of each class (just havent played most of them when I hit 90).

[Maegor]

I'll be upset if I get FoL as my first perk, since that shit is random and all. Not like it matters in the long run, since we will eventually get all the perks, just annoying.

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So I haven't played a Paladin in a couple of years. What's Ret looking like in WOD?

Honest answer? We don't know. Som many changes it's hard to say how any class will compare to another. If you like ST utility then it'll be great for you. Other than that, we have to wait and see.

[GreatOak]

I'll be upset if I get FoL as my first perk, since that shit is random and all. Not like it matters in the long run, since we will eventually get all the perks, just annoying.

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Honest answer? We don't know. Som many changes it's hard to say how any class will compare to another. If you like ST utility then it'll be great for you. Other than that, we have to wait and see.

Well I know they're getting rid of inquisition so that's what got me interested. I have crap like that. It's also why I'm happy theyre making Slice and Dice passive on Assassination

[tonicsargeras]

Getting rid of inquisition is what makes me consider rerolling.

I'm sure many people like the Retribution rotation as-is and would like to see Inquisition become an optional playstyle through talents.

[Reghame]

they got rid of inquisition because it was just a buff that had 0 impact on how we play our spec. maybe if it had interesting uses outside of pure damage they woulda baked it into the spec, but the only thing to take note of really thus far is that our raid utility is gone and we have lost salv as a get outa jail free card. they point to how we will want to use our hand spells a LOT more than we currently do, same with offhealing and have told us we are low on damage and looking into it.

Outside of that, mechanic wise we are the same, only difference in it would be IF you opt into empowered judgments ( still wants the damn talent named changed to this cause thats what it is!!!!) which involves us changing seals then judging for 20 second buffs.

TLDR: we will receive a class redesign half way through beta and become shitter tier, or at least thats what im thinken

[Vanderhuge]

Has anyone brought up the idea of potentially adding a Hand spell that has an offensive benefit to Ret - or perhaps even a talent that replaces the defensive benefit of all Hand spells with offensive benefits?

Here are some quick ideas:

Hand of Protection > Hand of Zeal: The Paladin and his ally deal full Holy damage for the duration of the ability, and deal 5% additional Holy damage.
Hand of Freedom > Hand of Unwavering Resolve: So long as the Paladin and the allied target remain still, they will both deal 5% additional damage/healing for the duration of the hand. Cooldown increased.
Hand of Sacrifice > Hand of Retribution: Any damage absorbed during the duration is dealt as split damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the Paladin

It's one of those odd things that can get Ret out of the "get this useless spec out of my raid" category and into the "ZEAL PLZ PLZ PLZ 10K" category.

[Reghame]

Has anyone brought up the idea of potentially adding a Hand spell that has an offensive benefit to Ret - or perhaps even a talent that replaces the defensive benefit of all Hand spells with offensive benefits?

Here are some quick ideas:

Hand of Protection > Hand of Zeal: The Paladin and his ally deal full Holy damage for the duration of the ability, and deal 5% additional Holy damage.
Hand of Freedom > Hand of Unwavering Resolve: So long as the Paladin and the allied target remain still, they will both deal 5% additional damage/healing for the duration of the hand. Cooldown increased.
Hand of Sacrifice > Hand of Retribution: Any damage absorbed during the duration is dealt as split damage to all enemies within 8 yards of the Paladin

It's one of those odd things that can get Ret out of the "get this useless spec out of my raid" category and into the "ZEAL PLZ PLZ PLZ 10K" category.

i like the concept of the hand spells, but if it were a talent, it would be absolutly mandatory as all off those even individually are too strong.
The HoS one though seems like it should be baked into the spell itself though, retribution currently has ZERO mechanics for dealing damage back to an attacker and would allow users to gain dps based on their skill considering you would use it when you know damage is getting pumped out and not just on CD. or maybe have that as a separate spell on it's own or even bake it into our defensive cool down. who knows.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Your Hand Offensive ideas are cool but some of the defensive oness IMO I don't think are worth scrapping.