Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Barkloud]

That's just stupid. Most people aren't going to unsub the minute they find out, any more than half a million people instantly unsubbed when they wiped in their first heroic back in Cata. It'll be gradual, as more and more people find themselves just not going out into the world if they can avoid it, and start to lose interest. Different people have different levels of tedium they're prepared to put up with, and plenty of people will be fine with having a continent-wide Timeless Isle (hurk) or will deal with it by just sticking to instances and garrison content.

It'll take months for a clear picture to emerge from all of it, and the average time from expansion release to first major patch is only four months. Which is well before the 1st quarter numbers are in. That's all I was really saying; by the time the impact, if any, is clear and unambiguous, it may well be too late. Once someone leaves, you're not getting that sub back easily.

I do not think his post was stupid, he had some good points. That said, I kind of agree with what you are saying about how it will play out. It may not be flying that gets them to quit. It may be the gated/slow pace of the game without flying. No denying the pace of game play is going to be hurt by not flying.

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Well, you need to explain this to the Pro-flight group.

I am pro flight and I do not think the masses will unsub right away. I think they will get bored and unsubscribe.

People inherently do not respond well to more work for the same rewards. We get enough of that in real life.

Gathering is going to be a nightmare.

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Hi there, i use groujnd mounts even though i can fly because i'm not a hypocrite like most in here, removing/delaying flying won't help with anything, on the beta there basically nothing to do once you've been through it on or 2 times, keep flying in and let people that enjoy being on ground be on the ground.


It's not hard choose your fucking ground mount, if you find it as enjoyable as i do you will use it, then again i'm not a fucking hypocrite, i play the way i enjoy a game, not what is 10 seconds faster.


Have a lovely day peeps.

Great great post

[-Superman-]

I do not think his post was stupid, he had some good points. That said, I kind of agree with what you are saying about how it will play out. It may not be flying that gets them to quit. It may be the gated/slow pace of the game without flying. No denying the pace of game play is going to be hurt by not flying.

You just said you didn't think it would be no flight, and then turn right around and claim it will be flight. Regardless of the reason for flight, you still assume all of the unsubs will be no-flight related. Maybe some people will just hate the zones, or the quests, or the raid content. Some people might hate PvP, archaeology, or leveling other professions. Others might just hate the idea of having to deal with more Orc related bullshit.

Maybe... just maybe... people will quit for reasons NOT related to flying, because flight is not as important to them as it is to the same 6 people in this thread.

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Gathering is going to be a nightmare.

Between garrisons, followers, and ground game, gathering is not quite the issue people are making it out to be. It's not like Vanilla-MoP where you had to do it all with no help. As someone who is in the beta, and has unlocked garrisons to their current level, gathering mats is hardly an inconvenience in WoD.

[Barkloud]

You just said you didn't think it would be no flight, and then turn right around and claim it will be flight. Regardless of the reason for flight, you still assume all of the unsubs will be no-flight related. Maybe some people will just hate the zones, or the quests, or the raid content. Some people might hate PvP, archaeology, or leveling other professions. Others might just hate the idea of having to deal with more Orc related bullshit.

Maybe... just maybe... people will quit for reasons NOT related to flying, because flight is not as important to them as it is to the same 6 people in this thread.

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Between garrisons, followers, and ground game, gathering is not quite the issue people are making it out to be. It's not like Vanilla-MoP where you had to do it all with no help. As someone who is in the beta, and has unlocked garrisons to their current level, gathering mats is hardly an inconvenience in WoD.

People will quit for all kinds of reasons. I personally believe no flying contributes to all sorts of issues. such as:

• Decreased flexibility as a player
  
• Pace of game slowed
  
• Frustration that hard earned or purchased mounts look crappy on the ground
  
• lack of cool ground running features such as GW2 non stop climbing challenges every five feet or Wildstar's constant super jumping to get to the top of things. For those that have not played imagine jumping to the top of thunderbluff from the ground really fast.

[Ordinator]

People will quit for all kinds of reasons. I personally believe no flying contributes to all sorts of issues. such as:

• Decreased flexibility as a player
  
• Pace of game slowed
  
• Frustration that hard earned or purchased mounts look crappy on the ground
  
• lack of cool ground running features such as GW2 non stop climbing challenges every five feet or Wildstar's constant super jumping to get to the top of things. For those that have not played imagine jumping to the top of thunderbluff from the ground really fast.

That entire list boils down to "People will quit because no flying"

Can't wait till barely anybody quits for that reason and you are never seen on this board again because your incessant dooms day theories don't pan out.

[-Superman-]

People will quit for all kinds of reasons. I personally believe no flying contributes to all sorts of issues. such as:

• Decreased flexibility as a player Has to do with scheduling, not flying.
  
• Pace of game slowed Game pace is still the same. Mode of travel has changed, not the play pace.
  
• Frustration that hard earned or purchased mounts look crappy on the ground Personal and subjective, has nothing to do with the merits of the game.
  
• lack of cool ground running features such as GW2 non stop climbing challenges every five feet or Wildstar's constant super jumping to get to the top of things. For those that have not played imagine jumping to the top of thunderbluff from the ground really fast. WoW never had this in Vanilla, TBC, or Wrath, yet continued to build a playerbase to 12M.

People left in Cataclysm for a myriad of reasons, even though we could fly everywhere. Arthas was a badass, Deathwing was just bad. People left in MoP mostly due to the World of DailyCraft in 5.05 and 5.1 and even 5.2.

The idea that people are going to mass exodus because of no flight in WoD is one of the DUMBEST theories ever made about this game. It's like saying Players will quit PvP because of the PvE toggle.

[Chipperbane]

As someone that constantly still uses both, this a very stupid remark to make. I can dodge anything in this game with both types of mounts. I also been doing it in beta as well just being on the ground, if you have played this game long enough you are familiar with being able to not aggro endless amounts of mobs. In most location and zone with in WoD content I could drive a truck through and not pull a damn thing. I can't and never could understand people that say they have played since whatever time had any worse of an issue getting past stuff whether or not they were on the ground or in the air. If you are not bright enough to watch where you are going, then flying is not the problem here.

The only advantage or disadvantage to flying or not flying is ones ability to either ganked or be ganked by another player, that is where this subject lies. This scenario that Bashiok laid out for no flying exist in maybe a couple locations within the content. On a grander scale, I have seen nothing at all that would take away from having flying at max level. I have been everywhere on the continent, I have also seen it from a perspective most will never see it from, the sea. I took a couple hours and used my anglers raft go around the whole continent. I can tell everywhere I could possibly go on a ground mount I did, even in places that required bit of effort to get too.

Only thing Blizzard is interested here with is slow boating the content, that is it. As for most of the players that don't want flying in, well that has more to do with pvp than anything else. I could care less about ones abilities to gank or not gank another player. Frankly, I find its nice they finally gave some kind of ability to totally evade all the dipsticks that love to be a royal pain to many. I think the gankers should look at this as a challenge of sort, your ability or lack there of to catch someone before their flying mount spawns and fly away should be another way to measure own abilities to properly play your class.

I didn't say it was dangerous. I said there was a risk of danger. Which there is.

Additionally, let's consider a daily quest from Cataclysm, for instance, in an area where flying was disallowed. Tol'barad. The quest to run into the big shipyard and kill the dockmaster. That area, ignoring anything like "I outgear this place and can pull fifteen mobs and survive", was filled with adds. Now with flight, you could just find a safe place away from adds, range pull the dockmaster, then mount up and fly out again.

Flight trivializes content.

Please tell me what, given the endless string of screwups followed by subsequent furious backpedaling, makes you so certain of that. Apart from the fact that in this instance they happen to agree with your opinion.

The same reason I'd still trust a doctor with ten malpractice suits more than I'd ever trust your medical opinion. He's a doctor. You're not. They're a video game developer. You're not.

Why do you think they developed so little content for MOP? Over 50% of the expansion the only new anything created was sold in the cash store. They developed nothing. Nothing.

I wish I could believe they were actually changing flying for the betterment of the game. That is hard to do coming off of 14 months of nothing after multiple promises we would never have a year of nothing again.

I believe their gate of valor+ Rep failed and they were forced to release content before they wanted to.

I have yet to have anyone show me how the content in WoD is any different than that of previous content *with* flying. No flying is just another attempt at a gate.

I have read many many posts that discuss running back and forth from your garrison after you ding 100. Their seems to be significant travel time in this expansion.

What was even sold in the cash store? A handful of mounts, pets, and three helmets? If that's your gauge for 50% content, then may I direct you to the substantially more mounts, pets, and other helmets they've released in raids, and on any of the three islands.

If i take a look on WoD, i really doubt that.



It's not evil to want to make money without expense. And blizzard did that by not delivering new content for a year. And that fact doesnt change, no matter if you try to ridicule it.

All I hear is "Blizzard is purposefully withholding content to make money!"

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People left in Cataclysm for a myriad of reasons, even though we could fly everywhere. Arthas was a badass, Deathwing was just bad. People left in MoP mostly due to the World of DailyCraft in 5.05 and 5.1 and even 5.2.

The idea that people are going to mass exodus because of no flight in WoD is one of the DUMBEST theories ever made about this game. It's like saying Players will quit PvP because of the PvE toggle.

Man, I'm not gonna lie. Arthas was a terribly cliched villain. All he ever did was show up, tell us he could kill us, and then not kill us.

Alternatively, he just killed his highly successful minions when we beat them.

That's pretty much why he lost right there - high turnover rate and terrible employer reviews.

[Mafic]

well, it is enough. And if you think it ain't, you can build the Inn and have the regular Hearthstone go to the garrison as well. This is not an issue, as 20min cd is more than enough. You certainly don't need to go back to your garrison after each quest, and you never have to go back to your garrison from another zone, unless it is in order to move to a new zone.

Nope. Talking with other beta testers we came to a consensus that isn't enough and in fact forcing choices (like a mage tower) is a big mistake.

Also by putting your hearthstone at the garrison you make going back to the off shore capitals tedious process.

[-Superman-]

Man, I'm not gonna lie. Arthas was a terribly cliched villain. All he ever did was show up, tell us he could kill us, and then not kill us.

Alternatively, he just killed his highly successful minions when we beat them.

That's pretty much why he lost right there - high turnover rate and terrible employer reviews.

That is the truth about every villain. Garrosh, Illidan, and more. Arthas was a top notch villain because of his role in WC3 and the expac Frozen Throne. No one was impressed by Deathwing, and sure as hell not impressed by Garrosh. Until Sargeras shows up, the villain pool is gonna be kinda sad.

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Nope. Talking with other beta testers we came to a consensus that isn't enough and in fact forcing choices (like a mage tower) is a big mistake.

Also by putting your hearthstone at the garrison you make going back to the off shore capitals tedious process.

Easier just to get the portals building to open up and keep one hearth in your capital city on Azeroth (SW or Org) and then use your Garrison Hearth to get back to Draenor, and then hop a portal to the other sides of Draenor without ever mounting up. It will be a Game of Portals, but it should be fun.

[Ninepenny]

In one way or another they all allow a player to either "bypass" or "avoid" terrain and/or mobs. They "remove danger from the world" which goes to the erroneous "safety" b.s.

Those are the things that developers have a control of and they allow you to "avoid" in a way that developers have intended.

Flying breaks it all and the playerbase has already made it clear that it absolutely hates mobs hindering flying, aerial combat and 3 axis combat (basically, everything that could be considered an obstacle and a challenge to flying). So flying has to go.

[-Superman-]

Those are the things that developers have a control of and they allow you to "avoid" in a way that developers have intended.

Flying breaks it all and the playerbase has already made it clear that it absolutely hates mobs hindering flying, aerial combat and 3 axis combat (basically, everything that could be considered an obstacle and a challenge to flying). So flying has to go.

Gonna have to call bullshit on this one. If you can find some overwhelming authoritative proof backing this statement up, I will gladly reverse my statement. Until then, please stop unloading the hyperbole truck as we are running out of free floor space.

[pankind]

Gonna have to call bullshit on this one. If you can find some overwhelming authoritative proof backing this statement up, I will gladly reverse my statement. Until then, please stop unloading the hyperbole truck as we are running out of free floor space.

You don't need a source to know players hate things that knock them out of the air mid-flight.

[-Superman-]

You don't need a source to know players hate things that knock them out of the air mid-flight.

Really? Cause I, and a handful of others mentioned on Twitter, and this very thread ideas to help balance flying and bring it on par with ground mounts. Some of those ideas included:

- Surface to air rockets, like in Krasarang Wilds and Stormpeaks
- Aerial mobs, like the giant plainshawks in Valley of the Four Winds, or the Drakes in Deepholm
- Ground NPCs with Deathgrip like abilities, or launching spears (Trolls, Murlocs, etc)
- Lowering the skybox
- Allowing aerial combat
- putting fatigue on flying mounts
- Slowing mounts down 150% slowed to 60%, 280% slowed to 100%, and 310% removed entirely

So, yeah, before people go spouting bullshit... I'm gonna need some citations and sources. Like this one:

The vehicles in question are all MOUNTS in this game. The drakes in Grim Batol are the Bronze Drake from Culling of Strat. The Red drake in Occ, is the red drake from Dragonblight rep. The helicopter in the opening sequence of MoP and Howling Fjord quarry daily, is the Turbo Charged Flying Machine.

As for inflight inconveniences, I would LOVE that. As someone who loves to fly through the air and swoop down through the trees, I would be fine with interaction from the ground or sky. There are already Giant Plainshawks at HalfHill (nerfed), rocket turrets in Krasarang and Storm Peaks, a player object than can dismount you (if you are within range), and more. Plus, if you think about it, there is no good reason why our drakes don't breath fire, or have the ability to eat NPCs like the sourge mount you ride in the final sequences of the DK starting zone). Eating an NPC (hostile) could replenish energy, power, mana, etc. You could open up a world of possibilities rather than shutting them all down.

As seen on page 297 of this very thread.

[Deleted]

All I hear is "Blizzard is purposefully withholding content to make money!"

It's more about "Blizzard is not doing everything to bring new content in time".

[pankind]

Really? Cause I, and a handful of others mentioned on Twitter, and this very thread ideas to help balance flying and bring it on par with ground mounts. Some of those ideas included:

- Surface to air rockets, like in Krasarang Wilds and Stormpeaks
- Aerial mobs, like the giant plainshawks in Valley of the Four Winds, or the Drakes in Deepholm
- Ground NPCs with Deathgrip like abilities, or launching spears (Trolls, Murlocs, etc)
- Lowering the skybox
- Allowing aerial combat
- putting fatigue on flying mounts
- Slowing mounts down 150% slowed to 60%, 280% slowed to 100%, and 310% removed entirely

So, yeah, before people go spouting bullshit... I'm gonna need some citations and sources. Like this one:



As seen on page 297 of this very thread.

Player opinion on an issue like that isn't something we can measure, which you are surely aware of, or you wouldn't be asking for a source. You have an opinion (a rather strong one judging from that list of yours) that also can't be backed by data. I don't think it's out of the ordinary to say you won't find that many people who are bat-shit about anti-flight mechanics.

Of course, that is just more pissing in the wind because it has absolutely nothing to do with the game design philosophy of a continent wide tier island.

[-Superman-]

So your response to me is:

Player opinion on an issue like that isn't something we can measure, which you are surely aware of, or you wouldn't be asking for a source.

Yet you were so certain that

You don't need a source to know players hate things that knock them out of the air mid-flight.

So I have to wonder WHICH IS IT? Either there IS a way to know... or there is not. One of your statements is a lie.

You have an opinion (a rather strong one judging from that list of yours) that also can't be backed by data. I don't think it's out of the ordinary to say you won't find that many people who are bat-shit about anti-flight mechanics.

Of course, that is just more pissing in the wind because it has absolutely nothing to do with the game design philosophy of a continent wide tier island.

As for finding a majority of players who are ok with those mechanics, it is irrelevant. I simply implied if I am ok with them, and a few others just in this thread are ok with them, it would be safe to assume of our small sample here on the forum a relate-able sample would prove valid given the 6M players in the game. Do I think they would all go along with it willingly? No. But, if players were backed into a corner and given a choice between all flying and the associated mounts being removed from the game, or a single patch building in some axis obstacles for the sky, my money would land on option 2, and would make me a pretty penny.

So, you're right. There is no way to measure these things, except with common sense knowing the bulk of the player base is casual, and casuals like to come and go with their limited play time. Time removed from them in WoD. Am I pro-flight? No. Do I want to see flight permanently left out of WoD and future expansions? No. I want players to have options, and enjoy the game they've been playing for 10 seconds or 10 years.

[Ninepenny]

Gonna have to call bullshit on this one. If you can find some overwhelming authoritative proof backing this statement up, I will gladly reverse my statement. Until then, please stop unloading the hyperbole truck as we are running out of free floor space.

"/leave Oculus", wrath mounted combat, Monstrous Kaliries and Vashj'ir.

Do I really need to proof something to you? Or you're just playing your "impartial" even steven game?

[Chipperbane]

That is the truth about every villain. Garrosh, Illidan, and more. Arthas was a top notch villain because of his role in WC3 and the expac Frozen Throne. No one was impressed by Deathwing, and sure as hell not impressed by Garrosh. Until Sargeras shows up, the villain pool is gonna be kinda sad.

Illidan showed up once in the Netherwing Dailies. Honestly, Pathaleon the Calculator was built up as a major threat and then killed off without preamble in the Mechanar.

Deathwing, at least, was everywhere. That's what I liked about Cataclysm. Everything was bound together by Deathwing and the Twiligh'ts Hammer. He'd even take time out of his busy day to fly by and murder you. All Arthas ever did was sit on his throne and menace.

[-Superman-]

"/leave Oculus", wrath mounted combat, Monstrous Kaliries and Vashj'ir.

Do I really need to proof something to you? Or you're just playing your "impartial" even steven game?

Just making a point that all statements are OPINION and should never be treated as facts Once people try to use the broadstroke generalization "could be a fact" attitude when posting makes me ask for proof. If, IN YOUR OPINION, players hate obstacles, that is one thing, but to blanketly assume pro-flight would rather have no flight or flight w/ obstacles, I can already tell which they would pick. I know. I used to be pro-flight.

Being impartial allows me to find the truth and bring it to the surface. Trust me, I don't cut the pro-fliers any slack. Pretty sure Urasim has me on permanent ignore, and Barkloud is pissed cause every other post of his I point out his lies. I don't mind pointing out the liars in the Anti-flight group either.

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Illidan showed up once in the Netherwing Dailies. Honestly, Pathaleon the Calculator was built up as a major threat and then killed off without preamble in the Mechanar.

Deathwing, at least, was everywhere. That's what I liked about Cataclysm. Everything was bound together by Deathwing and the Twiligh'ts Hammer. He'd even take time out of his busy day to fly by and murder you. All Arthas ever did was sit on his throne and menace.

Anyone who did the Forge of Souls when it was still current got a chance to feel what it was like to be trapped with Arthas and only Jaina to help.

[Baconeggcheese]

Really? Cause I, and a handful of others mentioned on Twitter, and this very thread ideas to help balance flying and bring it on par with ground mounts. Some of those ideas included: <snip>

Hey blizzard, I know you guys are having one fucking hell of a time getting content out on time etc, how about you add a whole bunch of clunky mechanics that have proven not to fit well in this game to your list of crap you need to dev in order to achieve worse results than just removing flight all together by literally making flying tedious and frustrating.

Sounds like a GREAT allocation of resources.

[Tokken17]

I am glad that you can't fly at first but would be sad if I can't fly ever in Draenor. I enjoy just flying around some times.