Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[quras]

Which will remain a personal preference that people can debate for years on end without reaching something that could remotely be considered a final and definitive answer

Very true.

To this day, for me cause it's personal and I'm not spending my cash for someone else, wow (WoD) is not a better game because I cannot fly at max level.

Which is why I debate having flying and no flying areas with similar quests that cannot be done twice. Flying in game at max level would have been a better option than removing it completely in content gamers were asked to pay more for after waiting 14 months with nothing.

Flying or no flying isn't what brought gamers back to wow. Simply having new content after nothing for so long did that. No flying will not entice gamers to stay once thats consumed but you can bet blizzard is hoping the return of flying will bring gamers back or at least sell them a box.

As long as flying is out, so am I. IF they wait to long, I'll happily be attached to something else and just skip WoD. I got the see the beta and its decent content but it's got a hindrance I wont support because it directly affects my activities at max level. It's just not as an enjoyable an experience. I played vanilla and when we got flying, the game got better. It's lacking without it in both getting me to where I want to go quickly and the freedom flying mounts give allowing me to hit every point I want to getting from A to B VS flight paths that AFK you and get only vaguely near where you want to go.

I'll not support flying being taken out at max level for blizzard lame reason or having it put on pause or some dickish, wishy-washy "you don't have it, now you do, now you don't again in just released content" crap.

[MasterHamster]

On what page would this thread have stopped at, if everyone right away grasped that people use whatever means they can to progress even if it's devaluing gameplay in favor of faster progression.

I can only imagine how dull it'd be if I did all this post-100-ding world stuff flying. Because yes I would fly. No question about it. If I'm not limited in a progression-based ground game, and I am allowed to just fly directly to my objective, I will do that.
And you can repeat the discipline argument if you want. You know deep down anyway that the argument may be strong in theory but weak in reality. Most players are not willing to make such a sacrifice in order to experience this amazing continent on the ground in a ground based game.

I don't know how many times, or how many different scenarios, I've tackled this bullshit argument about willingly choosing an inferior alternative.

Not using heirlooms because people get bored oneshotting mobs.
Not deactivating the 30% buff in Dragon Soul even though it made progression feel nullified by an incremental buff.
PvPers gearing up in 5mans because converting Justice->Honor was faster than doing Battlegrounds.

Or the bullcrap about the "option" to turn off CRZ. Who wouldn't turn it off? Less risk of being killed by enemy players, less likely to have people killing "your" quest mobs, or tagging your Time-Lost Proto-Drake. No heed taken to the zones that once again become empty. People aren't supposed to have these "choices" because they (an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY) can and WILL take the superior choice from a safety/effectivity standpoint. And then wonder why they feel bored running alone.

It all boils down to that. Choices players shouldn't have. No, you shouldn't have the option to 100% safely blaze over the environment, regardless how many times you've seen it, ignoring everything and then whining about the continent feeling lackluster and you have "nothing to do". Am I going to claim I'm having a blast looking for timber to cut down? No, but without a flying mount, at least I can't just deactivate my brain entirely solely looking at the minimap looking for yellow dots. The environment MATTERS when I do this "boring" task. I've been attacked by players, I've been dazed, I've found things hidden here and there, I've had to take slight detours figuring out how to reach that tree on a cliffside. Shocker: this makes the world more relevant to my gameplay. And that's a hell of a lot more "fun" than just aiming at it.

inb4 "This was all debunked, whatever you say, you could choose to stay on the ground."
No, I am not going to play feeling as if I had a splinter in the back of my mind telling me I'm handicapping myself whenever I step away from instanced content. And that is true for most players. Kudos to those of you who have no issues taking a ground mount instead of flying even if flying is available. If this was a few hundred times more common, maybe Blizzard wouldn't have felt the need to finally put flying down.

[quras]

[QUOTE=MasterHamster;30776135]SNIP....

SNIP...

inb4 "This was all debunked, you could choose to stay on the ground."

Truth is you could have.

You are not competitive 100% of your game time.

If you are out farming some achievements or doing some exploration or just enjoying the evening farming some mats. There is no reason you cannot ride on the ground if you like it and it brings you that much enjoyment. Sure, it is inferior to flying but there are a number of things inferior when in comparisons I'm sure. Farming dungeons instead of raids for example.

There is nothing wrong with farming dungeons if you like it. It might not be the best way to go about it but if you enjoy it. Have at it.

When you need to be faster or take a little less time, take that other option. Its not as enjoyable to you but you sure as hell didn't leave cause it killing your game plus it gets stuff done at a better pace.

Best of both worlds instead of leaning to much to one side.

Sure, it takes a little more design and development but gamers are not paying blizzard is sit on their hands.

No, I am not going to play feeling as if I had a splinter in the back of my mind telling me I'm handicapping myself whenever I step away from instanced content.

No, I guess not. Best for the other half of the gamers to play with that splinter in the back of their minds telling them, "You're ass is handicapped because a hamster can't be bothered to make a choice given his particular evenings play and even though he's in an instance, you got to play handicapped anyway."

[Baconeggcheese]

Most players are not willing to make such a sacrifice in order to experience this amazing continent on the ground in a ground based game.

Even if they were it wouldn't change all the little convenience bits they'd end up changing because of flying.

People bitch about gathering and archeology for instance... but they significantly increased the node population, as well as number of dig sites in zones and amount of finds per dig site.

That kind of thing has to be undone if flying was added in order to keep the same pacing... because people can't comprehend that mount speed is not the only thing that controls pacing. Once you undo all of those things... it becomes extremely cumbersome to use a ground mount when those things were designed around flight and actually seeing other people in the world becomes significantly more frustrating due to the decreased amount of nodes etc.

If there isn't like... ace combat levels of flight simulator going on people want to pretend like flying has no significant ramifications to how the world was designed.

[MasterHamster]

Even if they were it wouldn't change all the little convenience bits they'd end up changing because of flying.

People bitch about gathering and archeology for instance... but they significantly increased the node population, as well as number of dig sites in zones and amount of finds per dig site.

That kind of thing has to be undone if flying was added in order to keep the same pacing... because people can't comprehend that mount speed is not the only thing that controls pacing. Once you undo all of those things... it becomes extremely cumbersome to use a ground mount when those things were designed around flight and actually seeing other people in the world becomes significantly more frustrating due to the decreased amount of nodes etc.

If there isn't like... ace combat levels of flight simulator going on people want to pretend like flying has no significant ramifications to how the world was designed.

Indeed. I've tried to point stuff like this out many times.
But sadly, it's all about the arbitrary numbers that people see. 100% is less than 410% thus we are that much less effective.
Which would be true if Draenor was designed with flight speed in mind. But it isn't. We're not nerfed in terms of gathering speed, because there never was anything to compare it with. Oh so if we had flight that say, made us cover 3 times the distance in the same time as someone on the ground, we reduce number of spawned nodes at any one time and remove some spawn-points. In the end your net "income" shouldn't change.

But again, not immediately obvious and thus people sees nothing but a nerf. Or this devious plot to cut down development by slowing us down.

[Tazr]

Couldnt care less about no flying, I see more people in the world and w-pvp actually occur now and then.

You're seeing people because (a) it's a brand new xpac and (b) people are leveling. Give it another month - you'll see less people than you did in a world with flying - because people will be queuing for content parked in Garrisons - assuming they're not playing a console game/other mmo....

[Maudib]

Flying kills the feel and immersion of the game/world for multiple reasons. If there is flying everyone will use it. It's that simple. There is no choice if flying is enabled. People want to play their characters to the fullest of their ability, from using a sprint or heroic leap to move just that little bit faster to using a glider from a 10 foot tall cliff. If flying is enabled, you'd have to not be playing to your fullest ability to use your ground mount. Thus removing the fun.

So you openly admit that no flying is a significant nerf to people "playing their characters to the fullest of our ability". Enough so that if it is available everyone would use it (everyone includes you I suppose?). And so because you want to feel more immersed based on your personal criteria).. you suggest those of use who do not share same criteria for what we enjoy in the game should also be "nerfed" and thereby reduce our immersion and entertainment.

How is that not selfish?

[MasterHamster]

So you openly admit that no flying is a significant nerf to people "playing their characters to the fullest of our ability". Enough so that if it is available everyone would use it (everyone includes you I suppose?). And so because you want to feel more immersed based on your personal criteria).. you suggest those of use who do not share same criteria for what we enjoy in the game should also be "nerfed" and thereby reduce our immersion and entertainment.

How is that not selfish?

... That's not what he said.

Just the obvious. Players choose the path of least resistance. Almost always. And in a game where flight is nearly guaranteed safety and total disconnection from the physical world, it's detrimental. Efficiency at the cost of sensible design.

[-Superman-]

Flying kills the feel and immersion of the game/world for multiple reasons.

Feel and immersion are subjective. Changes should only be made based on mechanics.

- - - Updated - - -

This entire thread can literally be summed up for either side as "Having flying (in/not in) the game makes it more fun for me. Since this option is more fun for me, I don't care if it ruins your fun."

Since FUN is subjective, and personal, neither side will want the other side's version to be true since an 8 year old mechanic seems to either help, or hinder someone's perception of FUN. Neither side will ever be completely happy. Only difference is, anti-flyers can choose to use ground mounts. It is their own lack of willpower that forces Blizz to disable it for a patch or two.

[Granyala]

Flying kills the feel and immersion of the game/world for multiple reasons.

For the 218572689136135th time:
Maybe for YOU. Not for ME.

Seeing countless NPCs mount up and fly nilly willy because they can, while I (the super hero) am restricted to the ground <because reasons> kills MY immersion completely.

[frangeek]

More than 1300 pages of

- "Hey I like THIS"
- "So? I like THAT"

[quras]

More than 1300 pages of

- "Hey I like THIS"
- "So? I like THAT"

So true.

Makes you wonder why blizzard never designed the game with both options in it as to hit both groups.

Damn them.

[MoanaLisa]

Wondering when this outcry of shit hitting the fan is going to happen.

It may not. Then again it may. Or a third possibility: it may but you'll never much hear about it because what really goes on with the game isn't really accurately reflected by forum talk. It think the last most likely but it's early yet and many players aren't fully to end game yet.

I know it's hard to imagine but one of my alts is in a fairly large social guild and nearly everyone there is still in the mid-90's. We've got a few 100's but even some of those are parked while the players raise other alts.

Moderation note: There's been a mild derailment in the last few pages about whether or not there's enough to do in the expansion. That's off-topic for the thread.

[SL1200]

Well this expansion is fantastic. I like it a lot, but every time I mount up and try to fly away and drop to the ground like a rock my heart sinks a little. I want my flying mount back. The travel time back and forth to the garrison constantly is very anoying and its eating up a lot of my play time. The garrison hearthstone helps, but it doesn't return you to where you were doing whatever before you were needed back at your garrison.

[frangeek]

So true.

Makes you wonder why blizzard never designed the game with both options in it as to hit both groups.

Damn them.

I believe that's a fallacy (if I got your sarcasm correctly) as it was a false choice. Whoever chose to use flying mount would've get a ridiculously advantage compared to whoever chose ground mounts, making ground mounts worthless... as they actually where. This would've only be true if flying mount would've had several limitations to speed, which they hadn't.

But ugh, I don't want to be part of the argument :P I'm indifferent for both choices. If they implement flying I would be happy, same as I am happy now with just ground mounts.

I'm just pointing out how silly this whole thread is because it all falls down to personal preferences.

[Destruktion]

So true.

Makes you wonder why blizzard never designed the game with both options in it as to hit both groups.

Damn them.

You mean like realms with flying enabled and realms without flying enabled?

[gamingmuscle]

I'm just pointing out how silly this whole thread is because it all falls down to personal preferences.

Most of it yes. Only when someone has posted something really dumb or I found something amusing have I bothered =P

[quras]

I believe that's a fallacy (if I got your sarcasm correctly) as it was a false choice. Whoever chose to use flying mount would've get a ridiculously advantage compared to whoever chose ground mounts, making ground mounts worthless... as they actually where. This would've only be true if flying mount would've had several limitations to speed, which they hadn't.

Are you saying gamers can't be hit with a disadvantage? That gamers cannot be allowed to face a choice if one puts them at a disadvantage but also brings them fun and entertainment?

I know gamers that never step into a raid and only run dungeons. Sure, they will always be at a disadvantage to my gear and to the speed at which I can complete content and they cannot but we should not be removing options just because they bring a slight disadvantage in travel times.

As I have said, I highly doubt anyone is hitting the competitive edge every single time they log in. If running on the ground brings them that much joy, fun and entertainment there are plenty of times for that. The cool thing is, if they also want to have the option to pick up the pace, it could be there too.

The only fallacy is thinking it's not an option when it is. Is it the lesser of the 2 in terms of speed? Yes but damn if you love it that much, don't punish everyone else because you don't want to fly when you already had the best of both worlds.

Hell, argue for some re-balance not outright removal.

Fly when you need the speed. Ride on the ground when you got time to kill in a more relaxed gaming night. God forbid a no flyer choosing something they enjoy to do over something they dislike just because it puts them in a slight disadvantage over materials that mean even less with this expansion because of garrisons.

But ugh, I don't want to be part of the argument :P I'm indifferent for both choices. If they implement flying I would be happy, same as I am happy now with just ground mounts.

I'm just pointing out how silly this whole thread is because it all falls down to personal preferences.

I understand but if you join the discussion, you're part of the discussion. It does fall to personal preference though. Kinda sad blizzard choose one side over the other VS ACTUALLY trying to work it out for both sides enjoyment.

but then to keep selling flying mounts in the cash shop with one based on the very this expansion and the Wod collectors editions coming with a flying mount and neither you can use in WoD that you just paid more for is a dick move I hope most can see. That alone was enough to make sure I didn't get this expansion even with a decent leveling experience that WoD brings.

You mean like realms with flying enabled and realms without flying enabled?

Who wouldn't want the option? I know I would. It's a bit more division but no worse than what we have now with one sided factions.

There were a number of good ideas on how to adjust flying VS outright removal in this very thread I would have taken instead of what happened and for no better reason than blizzard gave.

[-Superman-]

I believe that's a fallacy (if I got your sarcasm correctly) as it was a false choice. Whoever chose to use flying mount would've get a ridiculously advantage compared to whoever chose ground mounts, making ground mounts worthless... as they actually where. This would've only be true if flying mount would've had several limitations to speed, which they hadn't.

But ugh, I don't want to be part of the argument :P I'm indifferent for both choices. If they implement flying I would be happy, same as I am happy now with just ground mounts.

I'm just pointing out how silly this whole thread is because it all falls down to personal preferences.

I'm curious. What advantage?

In WoD, resources from all professions are handed away daily, and garrison resources (with a Trading Post) allows you to purchase any resource available. So, technically, there would be no "disadvantage" in gathering. But let's get back to flight and gathering in the flight related content.

If you raid 40 hours per week, you still have 128 hours a week left to gather materials. Most materials weren't even needed given the level of food made available just before SoO, which meant gathering was hardly a competition. Plus, resources are available in multiple zones through a variety of options including trading Spirits for materials.

Anyone who wanted to use a ground mount, like the fine folks on my RP realm, have done so, in spite of flight. Why? Because they will not abandon their personal and subjective view of fun, regardless of the speed that flight offers. They still raid, and progress at the same rate as any other guild (save for the extreme hardcore groups) and do just fine in clearing content. One group in particular only raids two nights per week and does very well.

So, I have to wonder... if gathering speed has ZERO affect on Raid speed, why do so many people lack the willpower to avoid their flying mounts and just use ground mounts like the RP crowd?

[MasterHamster]

So, I have to wonder... if gathering speed has ZERO affect on Raid speed, why do so many people lack the willpower to avoid their flying mounts and just use ground mounts like the RP crowd?

"A few people are willing to do something, why aren't everyone willing to?"

Christ this thread should be documented for Game Design courses.