Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Elim Garak]

If people are bored it's their own fault, not Blizzard's.

Say what? We are paying to entertain ourselves?

[Baconeggcheese]

Just had a hilarious thought:
Blizzard removed flight to prove to the players that "overconvenience" is a bad thing in any given game.

Judging by the amount of bored people I'd say the Garrisons and the absurdly streamlined crafting system prove that point 1000x better.

?

Very different things, not sure how those equate to you.

I'm not crazy about the new crafting system, and I don't really like what garrisons do to the game either. It's the same reason why we were never likely to see player housing in wow and they went and did it anyway... likely as a kneejerk reaction to the idle game movement + what was going on with wildstar hype at the time.

[CheeseSandwich]

Blizzard won't be using development hours on a flying zone this expansion as indicated by their apathy on the issue as well as hinting at what we sane people have been saying. No-Fly isn't a big deal to the majority of the subscribers.

Why not? Their design decisions for no flying was based on TI, why not have 1 flying zone per expac, at least then they could justify flying mounts on the shop and as expac extras. 1 zone with flying elements, where players had to work to get free flight in that 1 zone, wouldn't destroy the rest of Draenor.

It's just a hope of mine, mate, no need to dump all over it because you think blizz is apathetic towards it. Avianna's Feather shows they arent totally hating on flight, they just want it more controlled. Well, my scenario is a place where flight is controlled. Why not? The tech is there.

[Iamanerd]

Wrong thread. (somehow moved to a different tab while typing and wasn't paying attention)

[Deleted]

If people are bored it's their own fault, not Blizzard's.

What a simply ridiculous thing to say.

[Mafic]

Blizzard won't be using development hours on a flying zone this expansion as indicated by their apathy on the issue as well as hinting at what we sane people have been saying. No-Fly isn't a big deal to the majority of the subscribers.

- - - Updated - - -




If people are bored it's their own fault, not Blizzard's.

Implying those that are pro flying are not sane doesn't make for a compelling argument. I do not go around saying pro flyers are sane because they support a feature that has been in the game for 8 years.

Now back onto to the topic at hand...most of the flying threads are being deleted on the official forums. No officially sticky on the official forums and it was announced on reddit where no one pretty much frequents except a supremely small minority.

It seems to me Blizzard doesn't want to discuss the issue with the community.

By the way this issue isn't going away. And no Blizz can't hide on twitter either.

[zeropeorth]

So when I have to fly to NY I should fly to LA instead? Because flying directly to NY is lazy?

No, it is more like this ...

you are a pilot and have a personal aircraft. Your country decides to ban flight for you, but gives you the option to drive your plane on the highways instead. Of course you have the option to go to the airport, but nearly all flights are non-direct, chances are most you take will make unnecessary connections and you need to pay a toll at each airport on the way. So, flying from miami to NY? Well, Orlando gets some money, atlanta gets some money, chicago gets some money, detroit gets some money, albany gets some money, new jersey gets some money, then you finally land in nyc; instead of a direct flight from miami to nyc, and you don't actually stop and pick anyone else up from the other airports, you just fly by them for no reason.

But you do get the choice of a long scenic route or driving your plane on the highway at a much slower speed and having to follow the curves and loops of the roads instead of going 'as the crow flies'.

I can just repeat myself I suppose. You deem mobs (I also wrote the environment) irrelevant. The developers most likely does not. Avianna's feather is very overpowered, when in a case such as yourself, rarely go out. I can see that. But if you had flying, Avianna's would be useless instantly.

I just argued why I thought it was lazy to fly. And that is why I have no problem with the pace ground travel gives, and given the content we have, I'm in no need to rush anything.

avianna not useless, have you not paid attention or played for years? People have been using items that give flight and floating the entire time. There was one my wife used in mists that would allow her to shoot across zones faster than flight.



It is a false argument that flight means nobody does anything. It is purely grasping at straws to try and validate their opinion. In fact, if you've been paying attention, there is this tendency for Blizz to release something and wait for the parrots, like the item squish, now no flight. They say something with twisted logic or no intention to go through with the reasoning they've given. Look at caster movement, 'hey guys, raids will have less movement to compensate' ... ROFL.

You know how you keep flying and design content that needs to be engaged? Fortresses, caves, and anti-air support. Dismounting cannon blasts, and interiors designed to make you travel through it to get to the mobs you need. Really simple.


I suggest Flying enabled for PvE realms, and disabled in current xpac zones for PvP realms. That would seem to solve quite a bit of the back and forth as most PvErs want flight, most PvPers want it gone.

Though removing it because you don't like it is akin to telling a place to quit selling something you don't like, instead of you not ordering it. The choice was always yours, but you want to remove that choice from others because you can't use willpower to do things the way you think things are fun. You just follow the crowd and can't make decisions and choices for yourself.


The 'I can gank someone gathering a node', later changed to 'I can stalk them and attack them at a later node' ... no different than on the ground, as you can see someone gathering, and stalk them, and try to gank them at the next node, or when they aggro some mobs.


Its ok, there is a system of conditioning going on in the nation to try and get people to want to be controlled and restricted. Younger people won't see it, but some older people have watched this sad state creep over many forms of life. Prime example, High Schools. about 20 years ago, students were allowed to leave campus for lunch, could walk around the campus and use snack machines, etc ... at my high school, now many years ago, freshman year that stopped allowing people to leave campus to get food. The following year they turned off snack machines and drink machines during lunch times so you had to purchase their crap instead. The following year they painted a yellow line around the outside of the cafeteria that you were supposed to stay contained in during your lunch break, instead of being able to go into a classroom with a teacher or generally not being crowded in a small space.

I see this trend across many facets of life the reason so many people enjoy the restrictions, instead of arguing for choice and freedom. They've become comfortable with less options, and they want to force everyone else's hand because people's freedom tends to make them insecure and uncomfortable.



This flight issue doesn't even have to do with content. What is so wrong with finishing your daily routine a bit faster, feeling accomplished, then having more time in real life? Just because you finish your shit a few minutes faster each day, doesn't mean you will unsub. You'll either work on something else in the game, or do something else with your extra time outside of the game, which is healthful for the game itself. You are less likely to burn out, because you are doing more with yourself.


What advantage is no flight really giving us? AFK on flight paths, more use of portals and hearths, and more afking in cities/garrisons. Seems counter productive. In fact, moving the capitals out of the cities they built and on to Trashcan (I almost wrote garrison, to me that says something about the design; it feels more like a tol barad hub on crack), was a huge mistake as far as keeping people in the world together and I'm taking an educated guess it was forcing garrisons into the same zone was part of it; the same as argent tournament was moved from its initial intention of crystalsong forest (hence the flight path hubs) to upper northrend because of Dal.


Now tell me, what engaging content am I supposed to do in the world without flying right now. I've gotten all treasures, I've killed all rares. Loremaster complete. I've trapped enough beasts for the xpac. I have enough apexis crystals to support a bad habit. What is so game breaking about flight at this point? It takes me longer to do the garrison daily(ies)? Not even, shit dies so fast anyway, back at my garrison in 5-10 minutes max.


Why can't they make tanaan no flight when it is released and the rest of the continent flying in when BF opens or in 6.1? Tanaan will be the only relevant max content area at the time of release, and therefore no flight becomes justified. Most people will be there, for all the actual content, so that is where the wPvP will be as well. Alts will still have no flight when leveling, and flight at max outside tanaan would be a great catch up mechanic, collecting chests for the Nth time, as well as everything else for the Nth time.


I'd love to see a valid argument against flight, but it comes down to that person's preference, not something of actual meat now. What would be important is to set up the restrictions of unlocking flight properly. If the entire purpose is for people to 'see content'; then make that the requirement to unlock the vendor (and possibly 'heirloom' tomes for alts as in the past), by requiring loremaster and gathering of all 'treasures' and killing of all vignettes ('rares'). Ashran, as a PvP zone, remains no flight. PvP realms could remain no flight if that is what the majority want.

A solution that wouldn't work (because it would last as long as vanilla/bc/wrath servers would, coming from someone who would want a bc/wrath server), is to make flight and no flight realms. The no flight realms would die out in a reasonable short amount of time ... to the point they might be able to support a single full realm at best.

Most people indifferent would lean towards convenience, so the argument of vocal minority goes for both sides, pro/against flight. The most vocal on both sides are the outliers. The difference with the loot change and flight is that the loot was for lower ilvl stuff that really didn't speed up your progress that much at all. What is a 636 piece with a socket run speed really going to do for you if you are raiding heroic or mythic? It will be easily replaced, even if it had perfect itemization. Main stats are so strong, you could have pure versatility and there is a high chance that 30+ ilvl piece is going to be better outside some outlier specs or a really trashy stat for specific specs.


It isn't about rushing or skipping content. It is about freedom and exploration. Seriously, buy something comparable to a 970 and get a cpu that does >4 GHz, use touchy settings to get all your graphics settings beyond ultra, and take a flight in Outland, Northrend, Pandaria and tell me it isn't fucking beautiful, breathtakingly scenic, and something you just can't appreciate on the ground. Sometimes it is the scale of the work that goes into WoW. They've gotten far better at stitching zones together than vanilla and BC. Having heavy ground clutter visible in your entire field of vision, even when hovering high above the ground is amazing. Not having the fog and seeing the vastness of the continents is great too.


I understand PvP is better without flight, but seriously, the PvP and PvE side of this game needs to be completely separated so shit is based on fun, not compromises against BOTH modes of gameplay. PvP and PvE both suffer.

[melodramocracy]

As a clothie, even a grey mob can land a lucky one, dismount me and force me to kill it. That doesn't mean said mob is relevant to what I am out there to do in any way.

And how is this a problem exactly? Mobs having no aggro range would somehow make this a better experience?

[Mafic]

And how is this a problem exactly? Mobs having no aggro range would somehow make this a better experience?

In other games, if you are higher level than the mob they no longer aggro. Or they aggro radius decreases as your level increases, etc.

[Blackcoffin]

No, it is more like this ...

you are a pilot and have a personal aircraft. Your country decides to ban flight for you, but gives you the option to drive your plane on the highways instead. Of course you have the option to go to the airport, but nearly all flights are non-direct, chances are most you take will make unnecessary connections and you need to pay a toll at each airport on the way. So, flying from miami to NY? Well, Orlando gets some money, atlanta gets some money, chicago gets some money, detroit gets some money, albany gets some money, new jersey gets some money, then you finally land in nyc; instead of a direct flight from miami to nyc, and you don't actually stop and pick anyone else up from the other airports, you just fly by them for no reason.

But you do get the choice of a long scenic route or driving your plane on the highway at a much slower speed and having to follow the curves and loops of the roads instead of going 'as the crow flies'.



avianna not useless, have you not paid attention or played for years? People have been using items that give flight and floating the entire time. There was one my wife used in mists that would allow her to shoot across zones faster than flight.



It is a false argument that flight means nobody does anything. It is purely grasping at straws to try and validate their opinion. In fact, if you've been paying attention, there is this tendency for Blizz to release something and wait for the parrots, like the item squish, now no flight. They say something with twisted logic or no intention to go through with the reasoning they've given. Look at caster movement, 'hey guys, raids will have less movement to compensate' ... ROFL.

You know how you keep flying and design content that needs to be engaged? Fortresses, caves, and anti-air support. Dismounting cannon blasts, and interiors designed to make you travel through it to get to the mobs you need. Really simple.


I suggest Flying enabled for PvE realms, and disabled in current xpac zones for PvP realms. That would seem to solve quite a bit of the back and forth as most PvErs want flight, most PvPers want it gone.

Though removing it because you don't like it is akin to telling a place to quit selling something you don't like, instead of you not ordering it. The choice was always yours, but you want to remove that choice from others because you can't use willpower to do things the way you think things are fun. You just follow the crowd and can't make decisions and choices for yourself.


The 'I can gank someone gathering a node', later changed to 'I can stalk them and attack them at a later node' ... no different than on the ground, as you can see someone gathering, and stalk them, and try to gank them at the next node, or when they aggro some mobs.


Its ok, there is a system of conditioning going on in the nation to try and get people to want to be controlled and restricted. Younger people won't see it, but some older people have watched this sad state creep over many forms of life. Prime example, High Schools. about 20 years ago, students were allowed to leave campus for lunch, could walk around the campus and use snack machines, etc ... at my high school, now many years ago, freshman year that stopped allowing people to leave campus to get food. The following year they turned off snack machines and drink machines during lunch times so you had to purchase their crap instead. The following year they painted a yellow line around the outside of the cafeteria that you were supposed to stay contained in during your lunch break, instead of being able to go into a classroom with a teacher or generally not being crowded in a small space.

I see this trend across many facets of life the reason so many people enjoy the restrictions, instead of arguing for choice and freedom. They've become comfortable with less options, and they want to force everyone else's hand because people's freedom tends to make them insecure and uncomfortable.



This flight issue doesn't even have to do with content. What is so wrong with finishing your daily routine a bit faster, feeling accomplished, then having more time in real life? Just because you finish your shit a few minutes faster each day, doesn't mean you will unsub. You'll either work on something else in the game, or do something else with your extra time outside of the game, which is healthful for the game itself. You are less likely to burn out, because you are doing more with yourself.


What advantage is no flight really giving us? AFK on flight paths, more use of portals and hearths, and more afking in cities/garrisons. Seems counter productive. In fact, moving the capitals out of the cities they built and on to Trashcan (I almost wrote garrison, to me that says something about the design; it feels more like a tol barad hub on crack), was a huge mistake as far as keeping people in the world together and I'm taking an educated guess it was forcing garrisons into the same zone was part of it; the same as argent tournament was moved from its initial intention of crystalsong forest (hence the flight path hubs) to upper northrend because of Dal.


Now tell me, what engaging content am I supposed to do in the world without flying right now. I've gotten all treasures, I've killed all rares. Loremaster complete. I've trapped enough beasts for the xpac. I have enough apexis crystals to support a bad habit. What is so game breaking about flight at this point? It takes me longer to do the garrison daily(ies)? Not even, shit dies so fast anyway, back at my garrison in 5-10 minutes max.


Why can't they make tanaan no flight when it is released and the rest of the continent flying in when BF opens or in 6.1? Tanaan will be the only relevant max content area at the time of release, and therefore no flight becomes justified. Most people will be there, for all the actual content, so that is where the wPvP will be as well. Alts will still have no flight when leveling, and flight at max outside tanaan would be a great catch up mechanic, collecting chests for the Nth time, as well as everything else for the Nth time.


I'd love to see a valid argument against flight, but it comes down to that person's preference, not something of actual meat now. What would be important is to set up the restrictions of unlocking flight properly. If the entire purpose is for people to 'see content'; then make that the requirement to unlock the vendor (and possibly 'heirloom' tomes for alts as in the past), by requiring loremaster and gathering of all 'treasures' and killing of all vignettes ('rares'). Ashran, as a PvP zone, remains no flight. PvP realms could remain no flight if that is what the majority want.

A solution that wouldn't work (because it would last as long as vanilla/bc/wrath servers would, coming from someone who would want a bc/wrath server), is to make flight and no flight realms. The no flight realms would die out in a reasonable short amount of time ... to the point they might be able to support a single full realm at best.

Most people indifferent would lean towards convenience, so the argument of vocal minority goes for both sides, pro/against flight. The most vocal on both sides are the outliers. The difference with the loot change and flight is that the loot was for lower ilvl stuff that really didn't speed up your progress that much at all. What is a 636 piece with a socket run speed really going to do for you if you are raiding heroic or mythic? It will be easily replaced, even if it had perfect itemization. Main stats are so strong, you could have pure versatility and there is a high chance that 30+ ilvl piece is going to be better outside some outlier specs or a really trashy stat for specific specs.


It isn't about rushing or skipping content. It is about freedom and exploration. Seriously, buy something comparable to a 970 and get a cpu that does >4 GHz, use touchy settings to get all your graphics settings beyond ultra, and take a flight in Outland, Northrend, Pandaria and tell me it isn't fucking beautiful, breathtakingly scenic, and something you just can't appreciate on the ground. Sometimes it is the scale of the work that goes into WoW. They've gotten far better at stitching zones together than vanilla and BC. Having heavy ground clutter visible in your entire field of vision, even when hovering high above the ground is amazing. Not having the fog and seeing the vastness of the continents is great too.


I understand PvP is better without flight, but seriously, the PvP and PvE side of this game needs to be completely separated so shit is based on fun, not compromises against BOTH modes of gameplay. PvP and PvE both suffer.

You missunderstood what i wrote. If flying was available, Aviannas would be useless, you can read it again in the text you quoted me on.

And you assume I dislike flying. I dont. I dont really care for it either way. I play the game Blizzard caters because I enjoy my time in the content they've given me.

I gave my arguments as to why Blizzard disabled flying. If its true, I obviously don't know.

All in all, your post is just some mish-mash of personal bias, disregarding all other opinions than your own.

[Granyala]

I'm not crazy about the new crafting system, and I don't really like what garrisons do to the game either. It's the same reason why we were never likely to see player housing in wow and they went and did it anyway... likely as a kneejerk reaction to the idle game movement + what was going on with wildstar hype at the time.

PLEASE don't tell me that I have to explain to you how a garrison that provides everything with a few mouse clicks is over-convenience that easily leads people to be bored.

[Baconeggcheese]

PLEASE don't tell me that I have to explain to you how a garrison that provides everything with a few mouse clicks is over-convenience that easily leads people to be bored.

PLEASE don't tell me we have to have a discussion about how its a completely different thing from what flying does.

Honestly, I'll pass on that conversation all together.

Can we talk about the thread topic?

[Granyala]

This IS relevant to the topic, because overconvenience is the basically what Blizzards arguments (skipping mobs & terrain) boil down to.

[Lane]

I'm curious, how many posting against convenience or efficiency have only ever played WoW or older MMOs? I've noticed many of the posters arguing in favor of it are citing other, more modern MMOs that offer improved QoL. I'm just wondering how much of this debate is 'old school' vs. 'new school'.

I mean, I really don't know what to say to anyone who thinks EQ or even classic WoW were the golden age of MMOs. I feel like the genre as a whole has come a long way from that and for the better. Many of the counter arguments such as time gating, considering mob density to be content, etc. sound like relics of an age past to me. I've played plenty of other MMOs that didn't rely on those things to keep players engaged. Ironically, I think if anyone's being "lazy" here it's the developers if this is the best they can do after 10 years.

[rebecca191]

If you're going to pick on unfun and lame development decisions why dont you start with the centerpiece of this expansion? Garrisons. Transit is integral to how immersed you are in a game world. Can people who are arguing for flight just admit that they just dont want to deal with a slightly slower paced game? Because thats really it right, it has nothing to do with mobs or the quality of fun. Theres nothing more exciting about floating around on a netherdrake as opposed to running around on a war wolf on the ground. From this side of the argument I really have a hard time imagining what is so game breaking about non flight, it forces player interaction and player interaction should be a top priority of a game thats essentially rooted in social activities in WoW. You can not pvp by playing on a pve server.

For me, the dragon is way more exciting. Maybe to you there is no difference but to me there is.

[Granyala]

I'm curious, how many posting against convenience or efficiency have only ever played WoW or older MMOs? I've noticed many of the posters arguing in favor of it are citing other, more modern MMOs that offer improved QoL. I'm just wondering how much of this debate is 'old school' vs. 'new school'.

I mean, I really don't know what to say to anyone who thinks EQ or even classic WoW were the golden age of MMOs. I feel like the genre as a whole has come a long way from that and for the better. Many of the counter arguments such as time gating, considering mob density to be content, etc. sound like relics of an age past to me. I've played plenty of other MMOs that didn't rely on those things to keep players engaged. Ironically, I think if anyone's being "lazy" here it's the developers if this is the best they can do after 10 years.

Well, WoW was my first MMO.
I really enjoyed AIONs gliding mechanics, even if collecting Aether was quite ... ugh...

But I guess quite a lot comes down to old vs newschool. Oldschool likes the slow pace and the traveling, new school prefers quick action and less downtime.

[Blackcoffin]

Well, WoW was my first MMO.
I really enjoyed AIONs gliding mechanics, even if collecting Aether was quite ... ugh...

But I guess quite a lot comes down to old vs newschool. Oldschool likes the slow pace and the traveling, new school prefers quick action and less downtime.

Or personal preferences aside. It comes down to what Blizzard wants this game to evolve into.

[Lane]

Or personal preferences aside. It comes down to what Blizzard wants this game to evolve into.

Well, a lot of Blizzard's leads have UO & EQ backgrounds. I get the impression many times that they're still sort of 'stuck' in the mindset of that era. Were WoW not WoW I'm not sure how well a lot of their systems would be accepted. Wildstar, in particular, tried to bring back 2004 and failed miserably.

[Granyala]

Or personal preferences aside. It comes down to what Blizzard wants this game to evolve into.

Judging by their constant 180°s every expansion I seriously doubt that they have a clear direction.

[melodramocracy]

I mean, I really don't know what to say to anyone who thinks EQ or even classic WoW were the golden age of MMOs. I feel like the genre as a whole has come a long way from that and for the better.

Something has definitely been lost along the way with the genre, ironically because of the success of this particular title. But that actually has little to do with flying.

I've played plenty of other MMOs that didn't rely on those things to keep players engaged.

Lets hear what they were, and how long did you play them.