Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Sweetpeaz]

But they aren't breaking anything either. So your little turn of phrase doesn't apply. They are doing something different...that is all. They are trying to bring back the exploration that vanished since Cata. The problem with flying was that people just skipped EVERYTHING. And, whether your admit it or not, it was a problem. They would spend all this time designing a zone and only a small percentage would actually stop and LOOK at stuff. See people get obsessed with simply doing things the quickest way...and completely ignore the beauty of the world that was made for the game. It felt more like a rush to level rather than an experience. They are trying to bring back that vanilla feeling (you know, that time of the game that a lot of people hold up on a pedestal...)

You need to put yourself in their shoes for a moment: they work hard and want you do actually see what they made, just like any other artist would.

I think they are breaking it. I think what they have now works.

But yes, I do agree, that they want people to see what they made. But compelling content should make it so you'd like to do it right? I mean....when I am level 100, what difference does it make if I can't fly in the beginning zone with level 90-91 creatures? Does that really matter? I've already been through that area while leveling. Does that make sense?

[Keile]

I think they are breaking it. I think what they have now works.

But yes, I do agree, that they want people to see what they made. But compelling content should make it so you'd like to do it right? I mean....when I am level 100, what difference does it make if I can't fly in the beginning zone with level 90-91 creatures? Does that really matter? I've already been through that area while leveling. Does that make sense?

Your opinion is duly noted and is 100% valid, but they believe otherwise. And that is all that matters.

Give them a chance to try it out, I recall MANY changes in the past that had a similar outcry yet they turned out to work just fine (mostly class changes).

[quras]

While having recently re-subbed, keep in mind I did not see cata or MoP, I am actually having fun leveling on the ground mount in MoP.

Other than cataclysm, we have never leveled with flying and let me just say, there was a shitload of things wrong with cataclysm other than flying and leveling thats for sure.

I had fun in Vanilla as well, all the PvP on ground mounts, etc... sure, getting ganked sucked in tarren mill/south shore, but it was fun PvP...

I had fun in vanilla too otherwise I would not have stuck around. I had more fun when flying was created for max level. Given the 2 options we have had max level flying the longest. Thats the option Im supporting.

I think the flying mounts took a bit of the fun away, and just made the game easier or more convenient.

max level convenience I can see. Made the game easier? I don't see. Every quest you still had to kill the same quest mobs, the same boss the same content. Easier, is very subjective at that point when you are max level.

Did it take away fun? Also subjective but I don't see how given since TBC you could RP your ass off and ride into a quest area and clear it every how you wanted. You could fly if you also wanted to the same affect. From a RP perspective alone, my God slayer does not need to ride on the ground any longer with the peasants and that is a fun perspective.

If anything, at max level it brought more fun.

TI-style content crammed down the throat of every wow gamer at max level and for months after max level. Thats not fun. Not fun at all.

But don't get me wrong, I also like the convenience, so after I have seen all the content, I would like to fly as well, and I am sure we will be able to do so at some point (like the guy above says, probably at 6.1)

6.1 could have been a decent compromise but that is no longer the case. Flying is out as of right now in all wod content and even blizzard says they have no clue because it's based on gamers reaction. That is something I cannot support

Spend you money and just wait and see if it works out. No thank you.

[khalltusk]

Alex's answer on that:

i'm skeptical on it to say the least. Will you be as efficient with out flying? I very very much doubt it the mounts or just flat out faster.

[Keile]

i'm skeptical on it to say the least. Will you be as efficient with out flying? I very very much doubt it the mounts or just flat out faster.

Well Alpha is getting started, and we should start to see videos trickle out....those should start to give us a good perspective.

[Deleted]

this thread needs to be closed. the same old arguments get spun around and that's it.

[quras]

i'm skeptical on it to say the least. Will you be as efficient with out flying? I very very much doubt it the mounts or just flat out faster.

Agreed. We have been told before similar thigns like this. Flight paths will be better and they never are.

Collecting mats will be just the same as flying? Not going to happen. GArrisons will not be that good otherwise gamers would never be out in the world blizzard claims they want gamers to go see.

It's basically PR BS.

Your opinion is duly noted and is 100% valid, but they believe otherwise. And that is all that matters.

Incorrect. blizzard opinion on the this only matters as far as what they are doing. Gamers option matters more given if things work out like I hope, blizzard will be forced to change their opinion and revert back to better times where flying was a max level ability.

When it comes to any company, customer opinion start to matter when it affects their pocketbook, until then a company wont really care. Hit them in the pocketbook and good changes start to happen.

Give them a chance to try it out,

I did. it was called vanilla. travel sucked.
I also did all the TI-syle content mop had. That pretty much sucked as well

I'm not spending $50 on an entire expansion full of max level TI-style content. It wasn't that good when they dished it into mop for free.

I recall MANY changes in the past that had a similar outcry yet they turned out to work just fine (mostly class changes).

and just as many players didn't like some of those changes. Enough for 4.5 to 5.5 million players to leave wow and never return and you can bet that is not a good thing.

[khalltusk]

Well Alpha is getting started, and we should start to see videos trickle out....those should start to give us a good perspective.

Its purely maths though 100% speed versus 300% (I think its 300%?). One will always be quicker than the other, also one is a lot easier to dodge mobs with. It will never be as efficient. They can how ever make it less of a pain in the arse with closer routes or less cluttered spawn locations (so fewer mobs to tickle me with). But as efficient nah!

Its the major downer for me wont be enough to make me rage or anything as no doubt while I am questing I will magpie mode any mining nodes I see.

[Bepples]

But they aren't breaking anything either. So your little turn of phrase doesn't apply. They are doing something different...that is all. They are trying to bring back the exploration that vanished since Cata.

My memory must be failing me or something because I distinctly remember flying on my own flying mount in Outland. I also distinctly remember flying on automatic flight paths since Vanilla. Weird.

The problem with flying was that people just skipped EVERYTHING. And, whether your admit it or not, it was a problem.

My memory must be failing me again because I DON'T remember flying in Pandaria while leveling. For some reason I thought I had payed 2.5k gold at max level to be able to fly in the continent. I must be demented!

They are trying to bring back that vanilla feeling (you know, that time of the game that a lot of people hold up on a pedestal...)

Do you actually think people ran from Ironforge to Blackrock Mountain every time or something? Flight paths have always existed and you better believe we used them frequently. When we weren't using an automatic flight path to go where we needed to go, we were sitting in a major city (then again, I guess posters of your type on this website like to pretend that people didn't do just that in Vanilla and "Lagforge" was never a thing).

Leveling had degraded into simply fly to target...kill target....fly to next target. All the immersion, all the exploration of the game they WORKED HARD TO CREATE was gone. It got to a point where the zones may as well have been a linear straight hallway of quests.

Have you not played WoW since 2011 or something? Cataclysm was the only expansion in which flying was available for the entire leveling experience (at 80-85; I mention this because it's worth noting that you couldn't fly during 1-60 leveling. It's worth noting that because you apparently have trouble remembering which leveling periods had flying available and which didn't)

Now let's look at tBC and WoTLK (pre-heirloom flight book). Leveling was a lot more immersive, and you felt like a more solid part of the world. You had to travel by foot and got to see the world, and all the little details they worked so hard to put in.

Oh, so you ARE aware that at certain periods of leveling, flying is restricted. I certainly did not get that impression from the earlier parts.

It's funny how you seem to imply that WotLK ruined this immersion by adding an heirloom book so you could start flying on your alts at level 68 rather than 77, as if we hadn't just "traveled on foot and got to see the world" on our main character. Funnily enough, the same content really isn't as fun and immersive after the umpteenth time so being able to fly at that point wouldn't exactly spoil anything.

Now I am not advocating 100% never flying, I am advocating no flying until X period of time (likely 6.1) so that people at least don't feel obligated to rush through leveling as efficiently as possible and actually take their time to make leveling less of a means to an end, and more of an experience.

That would be a great idea, which is why Blizzard was doing that in the first place. You would have also had to do a quest to unlock it, so flying was something you would have to earn. However, in recent times Blizzard appears to be seriously considering not having flying at all in Draenor. I'll point out that this is the far lazier option than the former. The former also didn't flush thousands of gold spent on flight training down the toilet for the sake of some moronic idea that Blizzard and much of the forum community have convinced themselves will fix just about every flaw in the game they can think of, whether they actually exist or not.

I'm also curious as to how flying at max level relates to people rushing through leveling content. I leveled from 85-90 in about 20 hours on launch day because I wanted to get to the max level content sooner, primarily to be as prepared as possible for raids the next week. Also because I damn well felt like it. I certainly didn't play for 20 hours in one sitting so I could fly around all the places sooner.

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Well Alpha is getting started, and we should start to see videos trickle out....those should start to give us a good perspective.

Sure, ground mounts are only 36% as fast as epic flying mounts, you'll be attacked and likely dismounted by enemies along the way and you will have to swim across any body of water and climb any cliffs in the way, but don't worry, gathering will be just as efficient even without flying!!!

Forgive me for also being skeptical.

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I expect it to be similar to WoTLK with the Heirloom Flight book that was added in later on to allow level 68 alts to fly in Northrend. Originally you HAD to be level 80 to fly in Northrend and then they added in that heirloom book (which is now just simply flight training available to all characters) later on because of demand.

Level 77, actually. It might not seem like a big difference, but that means that Icecrown and Storm Peaks were questing zones to be done with flying. They both still managed to be 100+ quest epics. They were both certainly better than Netherstorm/Shadowmoon Valley and Dread Wastes, despite the lack of flying in those.

[Keile]

My memory must be failing me or something because I distinctly remember flying on my own flying mount in Outland. I also distinctly remember flying on automatic flight paths since Vanilla. Weird.

Where did I say they never had flight in tBC? Not once did I state that, I said you couldn't while LEVELING.

My memory must be failing me again because I DON'T remember flying in Pandaria while leveling. For some reason I thought I had payed 2.5k gold at max level to be able to fly in the continent. I must be demented!

And how many people still complained about this method?

Do you actually think people ran from Ironforge to Blackrock Mountain every time or something? Flight paths have always existed and you better believe we used them frequently. When we weren't using an automatic flight path to go where we needed to go, we were sitting in a major city (then again, I guess posters of your type on this website like to pretend that people didn't do just that in Vanilla and "Lagforge" was never a thing).

Flight paths have nothing to do with what I was describing. I actually like that they are making them useful again.

Have you not played WoW since 2011 or something? Cataclysm was the only expansion in which flying was available for the entire leveling experience (at 80-85; I mention this because it's worth noting that you couldn't fly during 1-60 leveling. It's worth noting that because you apparently have trouble remembering which leveling periods had flying available and which didn't)

I've played WoW steadily since it's launch. And every time an expansion came out people groaned about not being able to fly until max level. They complained in WotLK and MoP about this. For Cata they caved in and gave us flying right out of the gate and it made everything utterly trivial.

Oh, so you ARE aware that at certain periods of leveling, flying is restricted. I certainly did not get that impression from the earlier parts.

Because you lack reading comprehension

It's funny how you seem to imply that WotLK ruined this immersion by adding an heirloom book so you could start flying on your alts at level 68 rather than 77, as if we hadn't just "traveled on foot and got to see the world" on our main character. Funnily enough, the same content really isn't as fun and immersive after the umpteenth time so being able to fly at that point wouldn't exactly spoil anything.

I not once said WotLK ruined immersion with the heirloom book. I said that they added it in at a later date, just like I expect them to do with flight in WoD. Again, your reading comprehension fails.

That would be a great idea, which is why Blizzard was doing that in the first place. You would have also had to do a quest to unlock it, so flying was something you would have to earn. However, in recent times Blizzard appears to be seriously considering not having flying at all in Draenor. I'll point out that this is the far lazier option than the former. The former also didn't flush thousands of gold spent on flight training down the toilet for the sake of some moronic idea that Blizzard and much of the forum community have convinced themselves will fix just about every flaw in the game they can think of, whether they actually exist or not.

They are considering. Remember: not a single thing about this expansion is set in stone yet. And the odds are still in the favor of max level flight down the road.

I'm also curious as to how flying at max level relates to people rushing through leveling content. I leveled from 85-90 in about 20 hours on launch day because I wanted to get to the max level content sooner, primarily to be as prepared as possible for raids the next week. Also because I damn well felt like it. I certainly didn't play for 20 hours in one sitting so I could fly around all the places sooner.

Because, even at max level, there are a lot of quests that can be done around the world. And people just....blow through them. You do realize there are more quests in the game than those that just level you to max, right? They do that for a reason: to keep you in the world.

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Sure, ground mounts are only 36% as fast as epic flying mounts, you'll be attacked and likely dismounted by enemies along the way and you will have to swim across any body of water and climb any cliffs in the way, but don't worry, gathering will be just as efficient even without flying!!!

Forgive me for also being skeptical.

Maybe you will, but I play tanks...cant daze me, bro! Seriously, though, they will find ways. The easiest way is to simply add more nodes to the zones to where in a single area you may have several, for example, metal nodes whereas in flight-enabled areas you may only have one or two.

[Nurvus]

i'm skeptical on it to say the least. Will you be as efficient with out flying? I very very much doubt it the mounts or just flat out faster.

You missed his point.
Your perception of efficiency is based on getting X value in Y minutes.
Today, you see 10 enemies and a chest. You fly over the enemies, grab the chest, and leave.
Blizzard knows that, so they tune the chest's value accordingly.

In WoD, you'll usually have to go through the 10 enemies.
Blizzard knows that, so they can buff the chest's value accordingly.

Furthermore, if EVERYONE is gathering or farming slower, your "efficiency" comparing to other players will remain the same.
Only the economy will change because there may end up being less supply.

So what I mean is, you must understand where you will stand both relatively to other players, and relatively to the content.
Blizzard can make the content MORE rewarding because you will NOT be "cheesing" content so effortlessly.

[khalltusk]

You missed his point.
Your perception of efficiency is based on getting X value in Y minutes.
Today, you see 10 enemies and a chest. You fly over the enemies, grab the chest, and leave.
Blizzard knows that, so they tune the chest's value accordingly.

In WoD, you'll usually have to go through the 10 enemies.
Blizzard knows that, so they can buff the chest's value accordingly.

Furthermore, if EVERYONE is gathering or farming slower, your "efficiency" comparing to other players will remain the same.
Only the economy will change because there may end up being less supply.

So what I mean is, you must understand where you will stand both relatively to other players, and relatively to the content.

I understand what you are saying in terms of mob loot but ORE values have stayed the same for a very long time. So unless they increase the amount of ORE you get per node to account for the time it would take to get it via flying. Then the efficiency will be less than it is with flying. I am talking purely about professions which really have not changed much in the amount of stuff that drops. I don't care where I am to other players, if the amount of materials I gather is less than before (due to being slower) its not as efficient.

It's not a big deal but its a slightly annoying one. FYI, I don't sell much stuff on the AH I make stuff for my character weapons armour etc bars that are used for belts etc you name it on my shaman its alchemy and herbal-ism so I make my own flasks and pots. If it takes longer to get the stuff I need then yeh its a bit of a PITA.

[Keile]

I understand what you are saying in terms of mob loot but ORE values have stayed the same for a very long time. So unless they increase the amount of ORE you get per node to account for the time it would take to get it via flying. Then the efficiency will be less than it is with flying. I am talking purely about professions which really have not changed much in the amount of stuff that drops. I don't care where I am to other players, if the amount of materials I gather is less than before (due to being slower) its not as efficient.

It's not a big deal but its a slightly annoying one.

As I said, odds are they will add more possible nodes. Which can be a great thing, as it would also mean less competition as there will be more nodes available (though, personally, I think nodes should all be personal like the chests on timeless isle....)

And as for the statement made above about them being on cliffs and water....odds are they will design around that to.

People fail to realize that they will be designing and planning the layout of zones around the concept of not having flight. Everyone is stuck thinking in terms of Vanilla -> MoP, when in reality they need to be thinking on terms of WoD (which pretty much none of us have access to and have NO CLUE how it will actually be).

[khalltusk]

Unless they increase how much you get from each node/node frequency. There are ways to compensate for lack of flight speed for gatherers.

Yeh thats what I was thinking, it would be the only real way to adjust for it.

[Sweetpeaz]

You missed his point.
Your perception of efficiency is based on getting X value in Y minutes.
Today, you see 10 enemies and a chest. You fly over the enemies, grab the chest, and leave.
Blizzard knows that, so they tune the chest's value accordingly.

In WoD, you'll usually have to go through the 10 enemies.
Blizzard knows that, so they can buff the chest's value accordingly.

Furthermore, if EVERYONE is gathering or farming slower, your "efficiency" comparing to other players will remain the same.
Only the economy will change because there may end up being less supply.

So what I mean is, you must understand where you will stand both relatively to other players, and relatively to the content.
Blizzard can make the content MORE rewarding because you will NOT be "cheesing" content so effortlessly.

I think that Alex misses the point that efficiency != choice

So he can take that an apply it to his frame of reference.

[Nurvus]

It make sense to me to complete quests and clear all zones on the ground so that you can't skip the mechanics of the quests. However, once we have consumed the content, complete all quests and cleared all zone are we are done with quest and exploration content. Once the immersion has been consumed, I want flying back.

The irony, is that immersion is consumed BECAUSE you start flying.

What makes a zone dead is when people have cleared the content and have much less reason to be in that cleared zone.

First, the real problem is you don't want to be in that zone anymore.
The real solution should be making you want to be there - not giving you tools to skip content.

Second, your argument is quite hypocritical.
When you fly into a zone for any amount of objectives - even Rare mobs - it obviously means you haven't cleared it.

The current Flying is NOT a problem because you can travel between zones or explore. On the contrary - it's exactly what it should be great at.
The current Flying IS a problem because you use it to trivialize content you have NOT cleared yet; and to prey on players who are at a clear disadvantage (lower level, lower gear, and/or busy fighting).

There is no challenge, risk and little reward slogging through lower level mobs at level cap in a cleared zone.

And yet we both know the lower level mobs are NOT what you skip, because they ignore you anyway.
What you really skip is the max level content - why fight those level 90 mobs on the way to a chest? You can just fly over them.

Fun is subjective. Flying might be 1% fun to you, but not everyone has fun in the same way as you.

Most people just put flying on a very luminous altar so they can't see the stains.

---
And again - I'm NOT against flying.
I want flying to be FIXED - not removed.
BUT until it's fixed, I don't mind it being removed.

[Mosotti]

P.S. Hunters are way better for ganking than Rogues.

No, they aren't. Any class gets destroyed if the "friends" arrive. The rogue can continue to kill the poor bastard and vanish before the "friends" can do shit about it

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and to prey on players who are at a clear disadvantage (lower level, lower gear, and/or busy fighting).

So let that fun to rogues only. Let's all roll a rogue

[Deleted]

No, they aren't. Any class gets destroyed if the "friends" arrive. The rogue can continue to kill the poor bastard and vanish before the "friends" can do shit about it

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So let that fun to rogues only. Let's all roll a rogue

except hunters can just camouflage and mount up and run, it's not like people will catch him on a 100% ground mount anyway..

[Mosotti]

Hunters can't camouflage and mount before they are stunned and fucked in the ass by the gankee's friends. The rogue will just vanish and laugh at the friends. As a rogue you can fuck someone for hours and never die.

Apart from that, the rogue can sap, so he never has to even go around mobs, like a camo hunter. They can just go in straight line to the fortress boss from the retard Bashiok tales. Of course they can make mobs to detect stealth, which would be also lame as shit, because they force the player to do as they want

[Keile]

Hunters can't camouflage and mount before they are stunned and fucked in the ass by the gankee's friends. The rogue will just vanish and laugh at the friends. As a rogue you can fuck someone for hours and never die.

Apart from that, the rogue can sap, so he never has to even go around mobs, like a camo hunter. They can just go in straight line to the fortress boss from the retard Bashiok tales. Of course they can make mobs to detect stealth, which would be also lame as shit, because they force the player to do as they want

Unless they are fighting Hunters who use Flair.

This is also kinda why I miss the old human Perception racial (the activated one). If you KNEW a rogue was around it was amazing....