Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Ordinator]

I found that math exercise rather interesting but even if you want to throw it out there's even simpler info to consider --

It's known (and easy to look up yourself if you doubt) that some 60% of the playerbase play on PvE realms. All those months and years of PvP fans chanting, "If you don't want to PvP, roll on a PvE realm!" And tons of people did -- to the tune of approx 3:2. That ~60% of players don't like PvP, don't want PvP and relegate themselves to non-PvP realms to avoid PvP when at all possible. So, right there shows that PvP is a less popular game feature that its PvE alternative.

It's also known that not everyone who still have toons on PvP realms actually like PvP. PvP realms still have riad guilds, etc and there are doubless players there who raid (or do other non-PvP-centric play) with friends and tolerate the PvP atmosphere to get that. Though it would be impossible to attempt quantifying that # they have to be admitted as fact. Then there are all those that relegate their actual PvP play to instanced content. They don't gank/camp/grief because there's no incentive/reward for it. The Censor and Bloody Coins on TI was the only non-instanced PvP reward added to the game in some time, yes? Is it any wonder some people went nuts over it? The gankers could gank absolutely anyone, including their own faction, and get something out of it besides repair bills.

Your numbers are off. Not to mention EU servers are PvP dominated so your argument doesn't really matter. And another thing, PvP doesn't cause durability loss. You really have a lot of fact checking to do.. d:

[Nayaga]

Would "Bubba" have been better? I can't believe this thread is still going. No matter how many pages of moaning you guys do...it's not going to change. I for one like it.

Thanks for the bump to keep it going

[Deleted]

It's pretty simple. I like the sense of being in a large world. Where the terrain matters. Mobs matter. Other people matter. And even when I use my personal means of travel I am not guaranteed safety, nor am I completely unhindered in movement. The "physical" part still matter.
And I cannot just fly all over it to my objective. If WoW was singleplayer perhaps I wouldn't fly. But yet again, the tradeoff is too great.

Flying gets replaced by fllight pathes. So the world will not be really larger. Mobs dont matter at all on a flight path tour. You are completely safe on a flight path. You are completely unhindered using flight pathes. You cant even stop on the flight path ride, which is possible with flying. Flying is way more immersive than flight pathes ever could be, as flight pathes remove the ability to play content on the path, as they take routes you cant influence.

At the end, flying just removes freedom. The freedom to chose to play content on the travel path.

At the end, you remove the most convenient immersive way to travel named flight and replace it by a computer calulated route flight path, which doesnt let you do anything else than watching your rent-a-mount to take a fixed path, which is time lost without any return and any chance to explore. Which is time lost without the chance to alter your route.

Removing flying removes the chance to play content and to immerse into the world on your path. Flightpathes are the worst replacement possible. Flight pathes are even more worse than artificial wait queues in matchmaking which blizzard added so people are forced to get out into the world.

Removing flying is just a scapegoat for blizzard. They want to adress all those nostalgia whiners on the forums, who think that deevolution will add back the old feeling of the first time to the game. It just wont. At the end, those nostalgists just want to destroy everything that got added since classic, while the reason to do so is just the wish to play the game for a very first time.

Removing flying is a destructive change. And it forces a lot of people to drop a playstyle they loved. It takes away options and honors fanatics that dont want anyone to fly if they wont like to.

[Nayaga]

It's pretty simple. I like the sense of being in a large world. Where the terrain matters. Mobs matter. Other people matter. And even when I use my personal means of travel I am not guaranteed safety, nor am I completely unhindered in movement. The "physical" part still matter.
And I cannot just fly all over it to my objective. If WoW was singleplayer perhaps I wouldn't fly. But yet again, the tradeoff is too great.

Maybe it's similar to why I almost never used Fast Travel in Skyrim.
Or flying in Minecraft using server codes.

Makes the worlds so much less than they can be.

Yes, you have posted "what you like" so have we and our opinions differ

[Deleted]

There's actually clear pros to no flying that the fliers blatantly deny. A couple being a more populated world and more PvP. 'Immersion' is called subjective, and it partially is, but there are still things that are generally agreed upon to be more immersive than others.

PVP ? On my PVE server ? In your dreams maybe.
And a "more populated world" = world of queuecraft from the rooftop of Orgrimar bank with half of the player base. While the other half have long time ago departed to play something else on Steam ,Origin, etc.

This argument makes no sense in a progression-based MMORPG. A game should never be asking their players to gimp themselves in order to experience the content as it is designed. Anyone who would genuinely do this are among very, very few. Imagine a mountain with a quest-objective at the summit. Along the path there can be all sorts of things. Wild beasts, a hidden treasure hidden in the snow. Maybe a sequence where you grapple to a cliffside further up. The environment is something for you to overcome on your way to your objective.
But no matter what, if flying is available this is all nullified instantly. What value is there in overcoming the ascent if you have to choose to do it? Players can't be left with the choice to be challenged or not. Because they will choose not to, even if it's less fun.

Get a buff at the base of the mountain.
If {use flying} then { remove buff}.
When {top of the mountain} :
If {buff}=exist then {spawn reward} else {null}.

[Ninepenny]

Not talking about instanced content but about open world/questing content. Keep up.

W/e you're talking about is Irrelevant. In WoD Blizz applies instance logic to the open world. They already did so with every other open world area they added to the game in later patches (IoQ, BH, TI, IoT). Now they're bringing up the A game. About time, I'd say.

[MasterHamster]

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Since I refuse to dumb down what I'm saying so you can comprehend I guess the issue is with you. Mistaking what I'm saying for "attitude" is just another distraction attempt to fob off your lack of competence.

You can always keep repeating yourself in caps like last time.

Yes, you have posted "what you like" so have we and our opinions differ

Yup, that's how things work.
But then we still end up with over 19000 posts because no matter what happens, the argument about willingly staying on the ground being an option keeps getting brought up.

[Aberzombie]

If WoW was singleplayer perhaps I wouldn't fly.

Just because the game is an MMO at root grouping/interaction is not absolutely required. In fact, most questing is designed to be completable with solo play. Grouping is primarily intended for instanced content not questing. In that vein WoW is 'singleplayer'. If a player chooses to never group that is their option. They have no grounds for complaint re the lack "advantage" or "progression" they suffer through the choice but at least, to date, they've had the choice. Now, through some bizarre illogic, the fact that the game offers grouping as an option solo play is considered bad and must be punished by making it even slower and grindier than before by removing an entire travel option for those that have "finished" the process of leveling. It's grossly unfair to "gimp" one group by force just because the other group refuses to gimp themselves voluntarily.

[MinTDH]

Yes, you have posted "what you like" so have we and our opinions differ

It seems anytime you have nothing to say, you just post "opinion!", it's time to stop that.

[Nayaga]

You can always keep repeating yourself in caps like last time.



Yup, that's how things work.
But then we still end up with over 19000 posts because no matter what happens, the argument about willingly staying on the ground being an option keeps getting brought up.

well if you don't want to fly don't use your flying mount.





Just kidding!

[Anzaman]

And a "more populated world" = world of queuecraft from the rooftop of Orgrimar bank.

Garrosh destroyed the bank rooftop.

W/e you're talking about is Irrelevant. In WoD Blizz applies instance logic to the open world. They already did so with every other open world area they added to the game in later patches (IoQ, BH, TI, IoT). Now they're bringing up the A game. About time, I'd say.

Content has to be designed with the expectation that there either is or is not flight, and approaching ground-level content from the ground offers more compelling gameplay. Raids, dungeons, and PvP continue to disallow flying for this same reason.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At the end, you remove the most convenient immersive way to travel named flight and replace it by a computer calulated route flight path, which doesnt let you do anything else than watching your rent-a-mount to take a fixed path, which is time lost without any return and any chance to explore. Which is time lost without the chance to alter your route.

I totally sympathize with people's desire to do that, they want to be efficient and have it be their choice, but we have to balance our intent to create a game against creating a sandbox where anything goes. There's a happy medium there somewhere, but flying mounts in most cases just do too much to undermine too many of our core intentions with the game world, the basis of the game: combat, or guiding players through a game experience, and for those reasons we have continually chosen (when we could) to disallow flying mounts in the 'current' outdoor content. In the past that's meant only while leveling, but in our experiences with the Isle of Thunder and Timeless Isle we feel like we can extend that for a bit longer in the new content, and have it be kind of a big deal again once you're able to earn flying in the first big content patch, and in the meantime putting focus on flight paths as well as having some more interesting travel options for players to use.

[MasterHamster]

Just because the game is an MMO at root grouping/interaction is not absolutely required. In fact, most questing is designed to be completable with solo play. Grouping is primarily intended for instanced content not questing. In that vein WoW is 'singleplayer'. If a player chooses to never group that is their option. They have no grounds for complaint re the lack "advantage" or "progression" they suffer through the choice but at least, to date, they've had the choice. Now, through some bizarre illogic, the fact that the game offers grouping as an option solo play is considered bad and must be punished by making it even slower and grindier than before by removing an entire travel option for those that have "finished" the process of leveling. It's grossly unfair to "gimp" one group by force just because the other group refuses to gimp themselves voluntarily.

There are so many things that can be seen as nothing as a means of slowing us, forcing us to "grind" it. Why does that quest require 15 kills and not 10? Or 8? Or 6? Slippery slope if anything.

Blizzard has been clear in why they are removing flight (for now. probably back in 6.1 regardless) in terms of how we as players approach content and how much flight affects how content needs to be designed when we're suddenly no longer bound by the laws of physics.

Of course there's the backlash because people might feel "nerfed", but people tend to cope sooner or later.

It's grossly unfair to "gimp" one group by force just because the other group refuses to gimp themselves voluntarily.

Thing is, the latter never happens. It's sort of like hoping people who dislike mounts in battlegrounds would willingly run.

well if you don't want to fly don't use your flying mount.





Just kidding!

D:<

[Deleted]

But then we still end up with over 19000 posts because no matter what happens, the argument about willingly staying on the ground being an option keeps getting brought up.

It would be an option. You just seem to be happier if everyone is not able to. While i dont think that envy and the wish to limit everyone are not really a great fundament to design games.

[Jaylock]

"Just the facts, ma'am."

Since I refuse to dumb down what I'm saying so you can comprehend I guess the issue is with you. Mistaking what I'm saying for "attitude" is just another distraction attempt to fob off your lack of competence.

You and the pro-flight camp have never had a good argument for keeping flying in to begin with. All you and the rest of you people do is say "i wan it in bekaus i lik it!"

Thats the only argument you can come up with, despite all the FACTUAL and well explained reasons why its a negative thing on gameplay.

[Nayaga]

It seems anytime you have nothing to say, you just post "opinion!", it's time to stop that.

There was nothing new in her post. There is no new rebuttal. She offered opinion not facts. What else is there to say?

[Deleted]

Thats the only argument you can come up with, despite all the FACTUAL and well explained reasons why its a negative thing on gameplay.

Because blizzard says it is. And blizzard is always right.

I dont need to like or dislike anything. I have blizzard who tell me what if have to like or dislike.

Blizzard, lead me! Please! Tell me that i should love the removal of flying and that i should love to see my dragon crawling thru the dirt. Tell me that i should be happy to spend another 10$ for an expansion that got one raid less and way less content than every expac before. Please, blizzard, tell me that i should be extatic about the fact they change the models that much they lose their original spirit. Yes, blizzard, please tell me that i have to love Karabor and Bladespire are no faction hubs. And at the end, blizzard, tell me, that all those sub losses are just because of the age of the game, while EVE online even grows in subs and isnt much younger. And blizzard and Chilton, tell me, that whatever you do, you wont get back any subs.

I want to believe! Praise blizzard!

[Jaylock]

It seems anytime you have nothing to say, you just post "opinion!", it's time to stop that.

Thats really the only arguement the pro-flight camp can come up with. In effect they are putting their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes and saying: "sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never hurt me!"

They say: "thats your opinion, and thats subjective, and blah blah blah" trying to discredit all the cold hard logic and facts that PROVE that flying in the game is a negative rather than a positive.

And im sure they will continue with this rhetoric on and on, but im glad Blizzard has chosen to remove flight, and we can only hope they stick to their guns on this one.

[MinTDH]

There was nothing new in her post. There is no new rebuttal. She offered opinion not facts. What else is there to say?

Almost the entirety of this thread is about opinion, if you're going to excuse everyone else's posts but hers/his just for the fact her/his opinion differs from yours, what's the point in posting? Once again, it's time to stop.

[Jaylock]

Because blizzard says it is. And blizzard is always right.

I dont have to like or dislike anything. I have blizzard who tell me what if have to like or dislike.

You are free to not play the game if you dont like it?? Is that fairly accurate?

[Nayaga]

Almost the entirety of this thread is about opinion, if you're going to excuse everyone else's posts but hers/his just for the fact her/his opinion differs from yours, what's the point in posting? Once again, it's time to stop.

Yea it could be time to stop. Why do you keep posting in this thread?