Celestalon on Demo tanking

[Deleted]

No, Warlocks don't have a tanking spec. They have a glyph that affords some half assed defensive improvements built around an archaic model of tanking. The spec itself would be much better served in PvP by having the Glyph cut and having its baseline abilities balanced properly without worrying about turtle mode so people can play the spec as a damaging spec.

I'm ambivalent about Gladiator stance, I play a Prot Warrior and honestly it functions just fine as a DPS spec if you're hitting Heroic Strike instead of Shield Block (okay not in terms of damage, but that's all). Whether the control and survivability need toning down for PvP, I have no idea but Fury and Arms Warriors seem to have all the same toolkit in that regard anyway.

Are you telling me, Prot Warriors can not use avoidance skills but spam heroic strike and not do solid dmg but be considered dps ? well i on guardian druid on klaxi pulled 1 dps in guardian form... but that doesn't make me a dps class/spec/rotation.

Simple fact:
In pvp you need bursting, such a warrior would not have it, in pve you need sustained dmg and some burst from time to tine... maybe he will have it. Don't really know. This changes 1 skil for now from defence to some X dmg and knockback. So its not making this spec DPS for PvE and if it is it will be not working at all or overthrown fury/arms because the amounts of CC you get and mobility.

Remmeber 20 sec time Shockwave ? when you were able to literally sit and smash shield on enemy head and stun him and slowly kill him without him being able to do much ? Thats how this new skill sounds, taking and fork (low dmg) and stabbing (stunned) person to death. It will be either OP or garbage and it will be impossible to balance.

But in case of tanks it is easier to balance eg. Paladin tank is OP and druid tank is meh because of what blizzard made as a mechanics for them. Why nobody complains about this. It is super easy to create "balanced" in such terms tank spec/mechanic without much pain. Especially you have Metamorphosis form and if you wil go back in time to WOTLK and Cata we could even if we need more skills us them. We always since meta came in had those tanking skills, if its a problem with 10 yrd demonic leash, make it melee range or just make us use touch of chaos. I can draft a solid tanking spec and build for warlock and submit here just so you can see/judge if it would work or be crap idea.

I think You are a smart person.

[Jessicka]

Are you telling me, Prot Warriors can not use avoidance skills but spam heroic strike and not do solid dmg but be considered dps ? well i on guardian druid on klaxi pulled 1 dps in guardian form... but that doesn't make me a dps class/spec/rotation.

I'm talking about swapping one ability; the Rage dump to deal damage instead of provide mitigation. There are plenty of other buttons to press; Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Thunderclap...

Simple fact:
In pvp you need bursting, such a warrior would not have it, in pve you need sustained dmg and some burst from time to tine... maybe he will have it. Don't really know. This changes 1 skil for now from defence to some X dmg and knockback. So its not making this spec DPS for PvE and if it is it will be not working at all or overthrown fury/arms because the amounts of CC you get and mobility.

Remmeber 20 sec time Shockwave ? when you were able to literally sit and smash shield on enemy head and stun him and slowly kill him without him being able to do much ? Thats how this new skill sounds, taking and fork (low dmg) and stabbing (stunned) person to death. It will be either OP or garbage and it will be impossible to balance.

But in case of tanks it is easier to balance eg. Paladin tank is OP and druid tank is meh because of what blizzard made as a mechanics for them. Why nobody complains about this. It is super easy to create "balanced" in such terms tank spec/mechanic without much pain. Especially you have Metamorphosis form and if you wil go back in time to WOTLK and Cata we could even if we need more skills us them. We always since meta came in had those tanking skills, if its a problem with 10 yrd demonic leash, make it melee range or just make us use touch of chaos. I can draft a solid tanking spec and build for warlock and submit here just so you can see/judge if it would work or be crap idea.

I think You are a smart person.

People have been complaining about Blood DKs and Druids 'falling behind' on active mitigation all expansion - especially all those "DKs can't tank Ra'den" threads; not sure what your point is.

[Deleted]

DPS'ers are built around different ideas than tanks ?

Tanks have basically spammable abilites eg. Warrior and Devastate while in eg. Arms dps its all about building range and offloading everything during colossus smash windows. Same on warlock you look at your procs and offload heel at your enemy during that times while rest of the time you build stuff. Tanks are different, you spam abilites that comes off cooldowns with only a mirage of priority, if you will miss one GCD with shield slam nobody will cry and you will not lose much while if you will go pass your trinket proc you are deep in the !@£!@£

People can argue but skill cap in Wow looks like this Tank < Healer <<< DPS

Blizzard introduced so easy tanking rotation, that even skip "resources" of such classes

Paladin -> you build holy power and you have 1 spender that you click on 3
Warrior -> all rage -> active mitigation skills
....

Threat is not an issue anymore in this game, so if a Prot War will miss revange proc...guess what... nobody will care. Paladin is the brightest example of spam rotation.
There is one exception and that is Monk, he has to watch stagger and use brew to remove it but i will call it as part of active mitigation mechanics.

while it is easy to be shit dps, it is not easy to be awesome.
with healers it requires a bit of skill to become really good healer,
tanks, has the lowest skill cap in terms of character, much more skill is required in progression times and is more reaction based on what is happening but 90% of tanks skip this by watching movie/reading guide on boss and just doing like a monkey what other people developed. Sorry all main tanks but Tanking is not hard (in wow).

Even if Celestalon will say turning prot into dps is easier than turning warlock into tank in current time i think its not really true. But i wanna see how it will work out and will we see spam of prot tanks in PvP/PvE or we will never see any of them and it will be removed next expansion.

I'm soo waiting for Paladin changes, because without it i doubt anyone will be able to compete with them right now. C'mon... glyph of battle healer even after nerf is better than new Druid mechanics when you spec into Nature's Vigil (Heart of the Wild lost 6% stat buff).

Btw. i was tanking on Druid for few years and indeed Druids are "nerf tanks" because dodge is getting DR's effectively making our active mitigation mechanism crap.

[Orloth]

It's a non issue now.

Live version and WoD version.

R.I.P. Glyph of Demon Hunting.

We're probably more likely to see playable Demon Hunters in expansion 6, then ever see Warlock tanking as a workable thing again. I'm going to go cry now.

[Brusalk]

It's a non issue now.

Live version and WoD version.

R.I.P. Glyph of Demon Hunting.

We're probably more likely to see playable Demon Hunters in expansion 6, then ever see Warlock tanking as a workable thing again. I'm going to go cry now.

Well that's extremely, extremely saddening. I don't see why they had to completely remove it since it does have a situational use and has a use for doing old content.

[Deleted]

Even if Celestalon will say turning prot into dps is easier than turning warlock into tank in current time i think its not really true.

I beg to differ. All they have done to turn Prot into a pseudo-DPS spec is change shield barrier a bit so it does damage and have a +X% damage modifier on Gladiator Stance. They haven't actually had to add any abilites to Prot to make it a DPS spec (apart from the new stance obviously) since all the abilities are essentially already there. If you go back and read Celestalon's blue posts again you'll see that there's a lot more work that needs to be done to make Demo a viable tank.

[Brusalk]

I beg to differ. All they have done to turn Prot into a pseudo-DPS spec is change shield barrier a bit so it does damage and have a +X% damage modifier on Gladiator Stance. They haven't actually had to add any abilites to Prot to make it a DPS spec (apart from the new stance obviously) since all the abilities are essentially already there. If you go back and read Celestalon's blue posts again you'll see that there's a lot more work that needs to be done to make Demo a viable tank.

Except that the majority of what he brought up actually already existed. Prime example: "Talents with defensive benefit." Really? We're warlocks. Half our talent tree has only defensive benefit..

[Deleted]

Except that the majority of what he brought up actually already existed. Prime example: "Talents with defensive benefit." Really? We're warlocks. Half our talent tree has only defensive benefit..

Other examples: "an interesting defensive rotation, defensive value for all stats (that's gigantic), Vengeance, DPS tuning, mob control, defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate, UI support, Active Mitigation skills"

Do Warlocks have any of those? That's what I mean when I say it would be harder than turning Prot into a DPS spec.

In the ends, it depends on how much of a "proper" tank spec you want Warlocks to have. Gladiator Stance right now looks to me like it will be more of a proper DPS spec than glyph of Demon Hunting is a tank spec, but you still wouldn't take either to a raid outside of exceptional circumstances.

[Raugnaut]

Except that the majority of what he brought up actually already existed. Prime example: "Talents with defensive benefit." Really? We're warlocks. Half our talent tree has only defensive benefit..

Indeed. I read that tweet and I thought "BS, most of what you are talking bout Warlocks already have, and the things Warlocks DON'T have (stats with defensive benefits) other tanks are missing as well."

Tanks are also getting a complete rebalance next expansion, with both stats, new glyphs, playstyle changes (DKs), ect.

But meh. Better to have the glyph removed entirely then have it persist in its half-assed form. I personally would prefer an entirely new spec for warlocks.

[nightfalls]

But meh. Better to have the glyph removed entirely then have it persist in its half-assed form. I personally would prefer an entirely new spec for warlocks.

Agreed that the 4th spec is what warlocks (and warriors, for that matter) need, not some half-ass talent/glyph/self-buff/potion/whatever modifier.

[Jessicka]

Well that's extremely, extremely saddening. I don't see why they had to completely remove it since it does have a situational use and has a use for doing old content.

I'm convinced that Glyph and the struggles with balancing it is responsible for why Demo became so poor at PvP and railroaded into Flag Carrying. It will now allow them to focus on the spec as a DPS spec for both PvP and PvE without worrying about the connotations of it's defensive benefits alongside full strength DPS.

Its better for the spec that its gone in the long term. Old content is better tanked by the Void Lord inany case.

[Deleted]

Other examples: "an interesting defensive rotation, defensive value for all stats (that's gigantic), Vengeance, DPS tuning, mob control, defensive mechanics that scale at the right rate, UI support, Active Mitigation skills"

Do Warlocks have any of those? That's what I mean when I say it would be harder than turning Prot into a DPS spec.

In the ends, it depends on how much of a "proper" tank spec you want Warlocks to have. Gladiator Stance right now looks to me like it will be more of a proper DPS spec than glyph of Demon Hunting is a tank spec, but you still wouldn't take either to a raid outside of exceptional circumstances.

Vengeance is turned into Resolve and all we have are selfheals and absorbs so yes it works on us by default. CHECKED, dps is tunned because mastery is giving you dmg reduction rather than buff to dmg. What is mob control ? you mean interrupt...yes we had it, ability to aoe tank yes...

One change is required, changing soulfire into something that is instant, costs energy and gives us absorb or dodge or armour bonus (im would call it another fury ward) just like warriors have so we can press it and use our energy on.

It would work like this:
Demonic Leash - Energy builder (like devastsate, crusader strike, etc on each tank)
Corruption - Energy builder and passive little heals heals (like seal of insight on paladin)
Strike of Azzinoth - (replaces hand of Gul'Dan 6 sec cooldown, massive frontal blow thats deal X dmg reduce damage taken for 3 sec by 15% (single target not AoE))
fury ward (absorb that eats 150 + up to 300 energy and gives you absorbtion bubble active mitigation something like 84% of Spell power + 1500-4500 dmg absorbtion)
Immolation aura (aoe tanking skill)

Mastery reduces dmg like now in DA Glyph, Critical strikes procs more energy, haste makes your dot tick faster and generate more energy.

To make crit and haste fun i would say haste also reduces CD's and GCD's while crits from white swings gives you +50% Dodge and +50% parry up to next parry/or dodge (combo of Warrior and Druid new mechanics)

And sorted ?

To add something for AoE

Scream of the Betrayer - Shockwave without stun, same animation. frontal dmg wave. with 10 sec CD and resets if it hits 3+ mobs.

[volrat]

This whole argument is getting really boring, locks are not tank, and it must remain this way, you are given a full 90 boost, invest it in a tank or hybrid class and never play warlock again.....
Really, it is a complete misunderstanding of a class role/lore, ppl sustaining this argument acts (often if not always) like jerks, tiping nonsense like the lil boy in the last blues arguing "he was playing since vanilla" and writing about the fact warriors were only tank specced, and when someone points out this to be false reacting like "You stop liyng"........

It seems like our glorious class have been playied by inadequate persons, they shoul play DK, wich embodies perfectly this nice type of brains...

[Irian]

I think it's pretty damn hilarious how intricate he tries to make tanking sound despite the fact that it actually really isn't that much different than the way DA played in t14 beta.

In t14 beta DA was perfectly balanced along with other tanks pre-nerf. So what was the problem with giving warlocks a real tanking form and letting them go wild with it? If they're a little too strong, nerf them to a level slightly below other tanks. I don't mind, I just really wanted to be able to tank as a warlock and instead I'm getting my answer in the form of DA being removed entirely.

[Deleted]

This whole argument is getting really boring, locks are not tank, and it must remain this way, you are given a full 90 boost, invest it in a tank or hybrid class and never play warlock again.....
Really, it is a complete misunderstanding of a class role/lore, ppl sustaining this argument acts (often if not always) like jerks, tiping nonsense like the lil boy in the last blues arguing "he was playing since vanilla" and writing about the fact warriors were only tank specced, and when someone points out this to be false reacting like "You stop liyng"........

It seems like our glorious class have been playied by inadequate persons, they shoul play DK, wich embodies perfectly this nice type of brains...

I leveled my first char in vanilla as Warrior, i had to eat ever 2-3 mobs, there was no victory rush, boost to lvl 60 and amount of mobs to kill on level was 50 x more than now, it was a grind and amount of quests in zones lasted for 2 max 5 levels while zone was spanned for 10. Yes whoever managed to get to the end of leveling and knew how class worked (did the zerker quest! \o/ never forget) knows that Warriors were Tanks, it was something like AQ patch and rebalancing of one handers that made Fury something that people considered as dps but even this ... every warrior was asked to have enough talents in prot to take last stand in case of main tank death so they can pick up the boss. Last Stand was on 10 minutes CD.

I had in guild people who dreamed of doing dps in cat forms or tanking in bear forms as druids, warriors that wanted to do DPS, and if it was 50+ run of a farm raid, often they were doing this but it was never something competetive or real. So that guy in tweet was actually true. But vanilla was broken, mace specialization and clubbing people to death in stunlocks as there was nothing like DR's yes... it was a land of brokeness but everyone looks at it with rainbow glasses on and everyone was playing warrior back then.... Yes!

I heard also stories of people having 8-10 capped alts in vanilla. Yeah and people dinging High Warlord in a week.... vanilla was broken and people have a lot of sentiment for it.

[Jessicka]

I think it's pretty damn hilarious how intricate he tries to make tanking sound despite the fact that it actually really isn't that much different than the way DA played in t14 beta.

In t14 beta DA was perfectly balanced along with other tanks pre-nerf. So what was the problem with giving warlocks a real tanking form and letting them go wild with it? If they're a little too strong, nerf them to a level slightly below other tanks. I don't mind, I just really wanted to be able to tank as a warlock and instead I'm getting my answer in the form of DA being removed entirely.

Err, I think the fact that the only way they found to balance it was by going nuclear and removing the Crit immunity might tell you something about how "perfectly balanced" it was.

[Deleted]

in T14 Beta it was not balanced, it was borderline OP, super good mobility with awesome damage mitigation but same time...so much fun. It was the best fun i had in the game... i love when i'm turned into metamopghosis from and smash faces!

From my point of view it was short but best time ever in the game, from fun point of view i had.

[Deleted]

Spark solo tanking Iron Jaggernaut Flex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Shez3E9w-04

!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

Spark and Rix Tanking Garosh Flex
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ieke_rvolY

Damn!

[PickleballAce]

It's a non issue now.

Live version and WoD version.

R.I.P. Glyph of Demon Hunting.

We're probably more likely to see playable Demon Hunters in expansion 6, then ever see Warlock tanking as a workable thing again. I'm going to go cry now.

It's funny...seeing just how many things are being removed in Warlords.

I think "Expansion" is a misnomer. They might as well just call it a Contraction or something.

"Buy Warlords of Draenor, the first official Contraction Pack of World of Warcraft. Available some time this decade (probably)."